What is the purpose of infant baptism?

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Taken

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Exactly -
The saints are on EARTH and the saints in Heaven intercede on their (our) behalf, according to Rev. 8:5.

There is NO getting around this
Biblical fact . . .

No.
Spiritual prayers are only TO the Lord God Almighty.

They are FROM a mans spirit TO the Lord God Almighty’s SPIRIT!

Men do NOT pray TO angel spirits.
Men do NOT pray TO mens spirits.
Men DO PRAY…FOR men.

Pretending earthly mankind is scripturally taught to PRAY “TO” created and made spirits in heaven is NOT TRUE.
 
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GodsGrace

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Lol GG.....Yes, please let us set the record straight with facts.

In post #754 you said, "It's wrong to ask that priests not marry. There is no mention of this in the NT...."

Let's set your broken record straight: The record shows that the men who choose to serve God and his sheep are NOT asked to marry. They CHOOSE not to marry! Soooo you are wrong about that.

The record shows that even though the NT never comes right out and says "Priests can't be married" it does say The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; he who refrains from marriage will do better” The Catholic Church agrees with that statement and opens the door to men AND women who CHOOSE not to marry and serve the Lord.

Jesus said, some have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it. The Church agrees with Jesus. YOU and your protestant minions have a problem with men who have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God and CHOOSING to be a priest.

It is true that The Church allowed married men to be priests until the 11th century when Pope Gregory VII issued a decree requiring all priests to be celibate. The Church has never said that priestly celibacy is a written fact in Scripture; it is a discipline enforced by The Church. Jesus was celibate and priest are to be like Jesus AND read above quotes from Scripture for further reasoning of this discipline.

So now, as you can see, Scripture does back up what The Church teaches.

Thank you for your opinions on this matter though............I will stick with Scripture.
Well which is it?
Did the church NEVER SAY that priestly celibacy is a written fact in scripture....
OR
Did it,,,,judging from your verses regarding this?

The church DID NOT require celibacy due to biblical reason
OR
It should have been required FROM THE BEGINNIING...

SINCE

The CC was the first church and set the doctrine forever.

STOP LYING MARYMOG.
You make no sense.
Thanks.
 
J

Johann

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No.
Spiritual prayers are only TO the Lord God Almighty.

They are [B[ FROM a mans spirit TO the Lord God Almighty’s SPIRIT! [/B]

Men do NOT pray TO angel spirits.
Men do NOT pray TO mens spirits.
Men DO PRAY…FOR men.

Pretending earthly mankind is scripturally taught to PRAY “TO” created and made spirits in heaven is NOT TRUE.
I already showed him that-be careful of his scripture twisting @Taken
 
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Taken

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You should have learned spiritual prayers are TO the Lord God Almighty…

The Elders serve the Lamb of God and are custodians of spiritual prayers.

No need to mention the Elders Names….since not once are men directed to call on their Name and Pray to THEM….nor any other created and made spirits.

:rolleyes:
 
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GodsGrace

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Only one question--do you think it is Christlike to condemn others and/or imply they are not saved? I mean, it was you who had a lot to say re Luther and Calvin, right?
I believe the reformed faith is incorrect and can be proven with scripture.
I treat all my Christian brethren with respect until I'm attacked by them....in which case I stop posting to them except rarely when certain comments are made toward me.

I'm a friend of the CC and am rather very involved with it.
I think the member in question is not doing his denomination any good service.

Also, you'll NEVER find me stating that a person is not saved. This is certainly not our place.
Doctrine does not save a person or we'd all be headed to hell since doctrine is so varied among Christian denominations.
My posts will always be regarding DOCTRINE and nothing else.
 
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Johann

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I believe the reformed faith is incorrect and can be proven with scripture.
I treat all my Christian brethren with respect until I'm attacked by them....in which case I stop posting to them except rarely when certain comments are made toward me.

I'm a friend of the CC and am rather very involved with it.
I think the member in question is not doing his denomination any good service.

Also, you'll NEVER find me stating that a person is not saved. This is certainly not our place.
Doctrine does not save a person or we'd all be headed to hell since doctrine is so varied among Christian denominations.
My posts will always be regarding DOCTRINE and nothing else.
I'm glad you have found a good church as I am still seeking where I "fit in" the body of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We all need each other in the body of Christ, as 1 Corinthians 12:12-14 says, "For just as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body—though many—are one body, so also is Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."

As to doctrine, none of us can claim to have it all 100% correct. We are all growing and learning, as 1 Corinthians 13:12 reminds us, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known." Regarding the Reformers, while I don't hold to TULIP, I must acknowledge that they endured significant hardship and persecution, as 2 Timothy 3:12 states, "Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted."

I'm glad we have cleared this up between us. It’s important to maintain unity and love, as Ephesians 4:3 urges us, "being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

Which branch of the Catholic Church [Orthodoxy?] Latin, Greek, Russian or Syrian are you a friend of?

Thank you @GodsGrace and shalom to you and family.
Johann.
 
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Truther

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Matt. 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

Gee - I wonder if I'll het to witness you telling Jesus that He "screwed up" when He is judging you.

I'll bring the popcorn . . .


Acts 2:38-39
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
The disconnect with the RCC is simple.

They think the name of the son per Matt 28:19 is "son".

They call Jesus, "son".

Jesus is their son.

Ma ry is their queen mother.
 

Truther

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THANK YOU, too for admitting that you cannot answer the questoins I posed.

You're gonna have to study a little harder in order to answer these
historical fatcs . . .
All I told you is I use scripture and you use commentary to create doctrine.

This is why the RCC flipped out against Luther.

He said "sola scriptura" and the RCC said "mucho commentaria".

You are from the same RCC mold.
 

GodsGrace

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I'm glad you have found a good church as I am still seeking where I "fit in" the body of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We all need each other in the body of Christ, as 1 Corinthians 12:12-14 says, "For just as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body—though many—are one body, so also is Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."

Johann, we need a church to go to. I don't know if some of us will ever "fit in" to any church.
The perfect one just doesn't exist. I think that if we could find a nice, denominational church, with nice people attending and with doctrine you could agree with at least 80%, you're good.

Now some on this thread are so proud that they agree with each and every doctrine or dogma that their church teaches. This is wonderful, but we cannot put down with those that, for whatever reason, cannot agree with some doctrine. I've spoken about this to some in the CC and they don't have a problem with it - as do some on this thread. So I just move on. I dislike this Pope,,,,but I'm not leaving the CC because of him. I have several friends that also do not care for him. (I started a thread in Apologetics if you're interested).

So please don't be too discouraged. Just find a fellowship that you can at least attend.

As to doctrine, none of us can claim to have it all 100% correct. We are all growing and learning, as 1 Corinthians 13:12 reminds us, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known." Regarding the Reformers, while I don't hold to TULIP, I must acknowledge that they endured significant hardship and persecution, as 2 Timothy 3:12 states, "Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted."
Yes. Amen to all your verses.
The Reformed have very good pastors/teachers/theologians.
They very much try to live a good Christianly life.
I have nothing against them except that some are as difficult to speak to as some Catholics on this thread.
Whatever denomination a person is should not cause them to be uncivil to others.
I also like John 13:34-35 We should love one another as disciples of Jesus, as He asked.

I'm glad we have cleared this up between us. It’s important to maintain unity and love, as Ephesians 4:3 urges us, "being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

Thank you @GodsGrace and shalom to you and family.
Johann.
Amen.
And same to you.
 
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Jude Thaddeus

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Well acquainted with his tactics…
Prayer does not mean worship. "Pray only to God" means you don't care about the meaning of "pray" so you change it to make it fit.

“for I am in anguish in this flame”, please remind me of where you think this flame is located.

Limbo of the Fathers, or Hades, as it says in Luke 16:23.

So not in this realm? The asking and the response do not happen in Earth-as-realm? If that is the case then I don’t see it as a basis for prayer to saints; [it] appears tenuous and overly derived.

The story still works in terms of someone praying or making an intercessory request of someone other than God: right from the lips of Jesus.


Again, I’m not seeking to invalidate your contour but it does seem that the main direction of prayer, as instructed by Jesus, is directly to the Father with the help of the Spirit.

The problem with your “take” is that it clearly goes through Abraham:

Luke16:24 (RSV): “And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz’arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ ”

Abraham says no (16:25-26), just as God will say no to a prayer not according to His will. He asks him again, begging (16:27-28).

Abraham refuses again, saying (16:29): “They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'” He asks a third time (16:30), and Abraham refuses again, reiterating the reason why (16:31).

How this does not support the principle of saints interceding and being able to intercede is a mystery to me. If we were not supposed to ask saints to pray for us, I think this story would be almost the very last way to make that supposed point.

Abraham would simply have said, “you shouldn’t be asking me for anything; ask God!” In the same way, analogously, angels refuse worship when it is offered, because only God can be worshiped:
Revelation 19:9-10
Revelation 22:8-9
St. Peter did the same thing:
Acts 10:25-26

If the true theology is that Abraham cannot be asked an intercessory request, then Abraham would have noted this and refused to even hear it. But instead he heard the request and said no.

Jesus couldn’t possibly have taught a false principle.

Prayer to the saints is never “required” but it is always permitted as a possibility and avenue of access to God. James 5:16 states: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” The saints are perfected in righteousness. That’s why we ask for their intercession, because it carries much more power than our own.
 

GodsGrace

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Prayer does not mean worship. "Pray only to God" means you don't care about the meaning of "pray" so you change it to make it fit.

“for I am in anguish in this flame”, please remind me of where you think this flame is located.

Limbo of the Fathers, or Hades, as it says in Luke 16:23.

So not in this realm? The asking and the response do not happen in Earth-as-realm? If that is the case then I don’t see it as a basis for prayer to saints; [it] appears tenuous and overly derived.

The story still works in terms of someone praying or making an intercessory request of someone other than God: right from the lips of Jesus.


Again, I’m not seeking to invalidate your contour but it does seem that the main direction of prayer, as instructed by Jesus, is directly to the Father with the help of the Spirit.

The problem with your “take” is that it clearly goes through Abraham:

Luke16:24 (RSV): “And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz’arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ ”

Abraham says no (16:25-26), just as God will say no to a prayer not according to His will. He asks him again, begging (16:27-28).

Abraham refuses again, saying (16:29): “They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'” He asks a third time (16:30), and Abraham refuses again, reiterating the reason why (16:31).

How this does not support the principle of saints interceding and being able to intercede is a mystery to me. If we were not supposed to ask saints to pray for us, I think this story would be almost the very last way to make that supposed point.

Abraham would simply have said, “you shouldn’t be asking me for anything; ask God!” In the same way, analogously, angels refuse worship when it is offered, because only God can be worshiped:
Revelation 19:9-10
Revelation 22:8-9

St. Peter did the same thing:
Acts 10:25-26

If the true theology is that Abraham cannot be asked an intercessory request, then Abraham would have noted this and refused to even hear it. But instead he heard the request and said no.

Jesus couldn’t possibly have taught a false principle.

Prayer to the saints is never “required” but it is always permitted as a possibility and avenue of access to God. James 5:16 states: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” The saints are perfected in righteousness. That’s why we ask for their intercession, because it carries much more power than our own.
I have no wish to discuss with you.
But I trust @Taken will have the correct response.
Let's remember that they WERE IN HADES.
And there's no such place as LIMBO....just for the record.

The above is nonsense and you, as the perfect Catholic that you are,
should know better.
 
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Johann

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Prayer does not mean worship. "Pray only to God" means you don't care about the meaning of "pray" so you change it to make it fit.

“for I am in anguish in this flame”, please remind me of where you think this flame is located.

Limbo of the Fathers, or Hades, as it says in Luke 16:23.

So not in this realm? The asking and the response do not happen in Earth-as-realm? If that is the case then I don’t see it as a basis for prayer to saints; [it] appears tenuous and overly derived.

The story still works in terms of someone praying or making an intercessory request of someone other than God: right from the lips of Jesus.


Again, I’m not seeking to invalidate your contour but it does seem that the main direction of prayer, as instructed by Jesus, is directly to the Father with the help of the Spirit.

The problem with your “take” is that it clearly goes through Abraham:

Luke16:24 (RSV): “And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz’arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ ”

Abraham says no (16:25-26), just as God will say no to a prayer not according to His will. He asks him again, begging (16:27-28).

Abraham refuses again, saying (16:29): “They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'” He asks a third time (16:30), and Abraham refuses again, reiterating the reason why (16:31).

How this does not support the principle of saints interceding and being able to intercede is a mystery to me. If we were not supposed to ask saints to pray for us, I think this story would be almost the very last way to make that supposed point.

Abraham would simply have said, “you shouldn’t be asking me for anything; ask God!” In the same way, analogously, angels refuse worship when it is offered, because only God can be worshiped:
Revelation 19:9-10
Revelation 22:8-9

St. Peter did the same thing:
Acts 10:25-26

If the true theology is that Abraham cannot be asked an intercessory request, then Abraham would have noted this and refused to even hear it. But instead he heard the request and said no.

Jesus couldn’t possibly have taught a false principle.

Prayer to the saints is never “required” but it is always permitted as a possibility and avenue of access to God. James 5:16 states: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” The saints are perfected in righteousness. That’s why we ask for their intercession, because it carries much more power than our own.
Absolute nonsense and you use Scripture verses out of context-you and @BreadOfLife.
Hence the reason you are on ignore. I have no problem having a civil conversation with any Catholic member, just not you and the others with your stupid emojis.
 
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Johann

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Prayer does not mean worship. "Pray only to God" means you don't care about the meaning of "pray" so you change it to make it fit.
Already a big mistake from your end--

Corrected Statement with Greek Meaning
"Prayer does not necessarily mean worship. When someone says 'Pray only to God,' they might be misunderstanding the meaning of 'pray' in its biblical context. The Greek word for 'pray' is 'προσεύχομαι' (proseuchomai), which means to earnestly request or entreat. This is different from 'worship,' which in Greek is 'προσκυνέω' (proskuneo), meaning to show reverence or adoration. Therefore, 'pray' involves making requests, while 'worship' involves showing adoration and reverence."

Explanation of Greek Terms
Prayer (προσεύχομαι - proseuchomai):

Meaning: To earnestly request or entreat, often used in the context of communicating with God.
Example in Scripture: Matthew 6:6 (KJV): "But thou, when thou prayest (προσεύχομαι), enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray (προσεύχομαι) to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

Worship (προσκυνέω - proskuneo):


Meaning: To show reverence or adoration, often involving bowing down or showing profound respect.
Example in Scripture: John 4:24 (KJV): "God is a Spirit: and they that worship (προσκυνέω) him must worship (προσκυνέω) him in spirit and in truth."

Revised Statement
"Prayer and worship are distinct actions in biblical context. The Greek word for 'pray' is 'προσεύχομαι' (proseuchomai), which means to earnestly request or entreat, while 'worship' is 'προσκυνέω' (proskuneo), meaning to show reverence or adoration.

Thus, saying 'Pray only to God' might stem from a misunderstanding of 'pray,' which involves making requests, whereas 'worship' involves showing adoration and reverence.
Both are important, but they are not synonymous."


This revision clarifies the difference between prayer and worship, using the Greek terms to provide a deeper understanding of their meanings in the New Testament.
Limbo of the Fathers, or Hades, as it says in Luke 16:23.
No "Limbo"
How this does not support the principle of saints interceding and being able to intercede is a mystery to me. If we were not supposed to ask saints to pray for us, I think this story would be almost the very last way to make that supposed point.
Your opinion, foreign to Scripture.
Prayer to the saints is never “required” but it is always permitted as a possibility and avenue of access to God. James 5:16 states: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” The saints are perfected in righteousness. That’s why we ask for their intercession, because it carries much more power than our own.
You are butchering the text with your "one verse theology" neglecting context.
 
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RedFan

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Prayer to the saints is never “required” but it is always permitted as a possibility and avenue of access to God. James 5:16 states: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” The saints are perfected in righteousness. That’s why we ask for their intercession, because it carries much more power than our own.
The notion here is that even if my prayer directly to God would not be granted, my prayer to Saint So-and-So to ask the same thing of God on my behalf would achieve its granting (because God favors So-and-So’s requests over mine). Let’s dig into this. Four possibilities:

1. God hears my direct prayer, and His decision to deny my request is presumably in my (or my intended's) best interest (which best interest He has at heart). He changes His mind based on So-and-So’s intercession, and grants me what is not in my or my intended's best interest.

2. God hears my direct prayer, and His decision to deny it is not in my (or my intended’s) best interest (which best interest He has at heart). He changes His mind based on So-and-So’s intercession, and grants me what is in my or my intended's best interest.

3. God hears my direct prayer, and His decision to deny it is neutral, neither in nor against my (or my intended’s) best interest. He changes His mind based on So-and-So’s intercession, and grants my neutral request.

4. God doesn’t hear my prayer. He does, however, hear So-and-So’s prayer.

None of these is really satisfactory, although #3 comes closest.
 
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Johann

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The notion here is that even if my prayer directly to God would not be granted, my prayer to Saint So-and-So to ask the same thing of God on my behalf would achieve its granting (because God favors So-and-So’s requests over mine). Let’s dig into this. Four possibilities:

1. God hears my direct prayer, and His decision to deny my request is presumably in my (or my intended's) best interest (which best interest He has at heart). He changes His mind based on So-and-So’s intercession, and grants me what is not in my or my intended's best interest.

2. God hears my direct prayer, and His decision to deny it is not in my (or my intended’s) best interest (which best interest He has at heart). He changes His mind based on So-and-So’s intercession, and grants me what is in my or my intended's best interest.

3. God hears my direct prayer, and His decision to deny it is neutral, neither in nor against my (or my intended’s) best interest. He changes His mind based on So-and-So’s intercession, and grants my neutral request.

4. God doesn’t hear my prayer. He does, however, hear So-and-So’s prayer.

None of these is really satisfactory, although #3 comes closest.
Also-not my will/boule/thelema be done but Thine--I don't believe So-and-So's intercessory prayers and by this I mean these--no offense.


Major Saints and Their Roles
Mary, Mother of Jesus (The Blessed Virgin Mary)

Role: The most venerated saint in the Catholic Church, often prayed to for intercession, guidance, and help in times of need.
Common Prayers: Hail Mary, The Rosary.
Saint Joseph

Role: Patron saint of workers, fathers, and the universal Church.
Common Prayers: Prayer to Saint Joseph for Protection.
Saint Peter

Role: Considered the first Pope, patron saint of fishermen and the papacy.
Common Prayers: Prayers for the Pope and the Church.
Saint Paul

Role: Apostle to the Gentiles, patron saint of missionaries and theologians.
Common Prayers: Prayers for evangelization and mission work.
Saint Francis of Assisi

Role: Patron saint of animals, the environment, and simplicity.
Common Prayers: Peace Prayer of Saint Francis.
Saint Anthony of Padua

Role: Patron saint of lost items and the poor.
Common Prayers: Prayer to Saint Anthony to Recover Lost Things.
Saint Jude Thaddeus

Role: Patron saint of desperate cases and lost causes.
Common Prayers: Prayer to Saint Jude for Hope in Difficult Times.
Saint Therese of Lisieux (The Little Flower)

Role: Patron saint of missionaries, florists, and the sick.
Common Prayers: The Novena to Saint Therese.
Saint Michael the Archangel

Role: Leader of all angels and the army of God, protector against evil.
Common Prayers: Prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel.
Saint Augustine

Role: Patron saint of theologians, brewers, and those who seek conversion.
Common Prayers: Prayers for wisdom and understanding.
Scriptural and Theological Basis

Intercession of Saints: Catholics believe in the communion of saints, which means that all members of the Church, in heaven and on earth, are spiritually united. This is supported by passages like Revelation 5:8, where the prayers of the saints are presented to God as incense.

Role of Mary: Mary is often given a special place due to her role as the mother of Jesus, reflected in passages such as Luke 1:28, where she is called "full of grace."
Practices
Praying to Saints: This involves asking saints to pray to God on one's behalf. It is not worship, which is due to God alone, but a request for intercession.

Novena: A series of prayers recited over nine days, often directed to a particular saint for a specific intention.
Feast Days: Special days dedicated to celebrating the lives and contributions of saints, often involving specific prayers and masses.
Conclusion

Roman Catholics pray to saints to seek their intercession, believing that saints, being in heaven and close to God, can pray on behalf of the faithful. This practice is rooted in the concept of the communion of saints and supported by scriptural passages that highlight the role of saints in presenting prayers to God.

Interestingly---------

When Martin Luther was almost struck by lightning in 1505, he famously prayed to Saint Anne, who was traditionally venerated as the mother of the Virgin Mary. During the thunderstorm, he is reported to have cried out, "Help me, Saint Anne! I will become a monk!" This vow led him to join an Augustinian monastery and eventually to become a key figure in the Protestant Reformation.

Context and Significance
Saint Anne: Venerated in Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and some Protestant traditions. She is often invoked as a protector and intercessor, particularly for miners and those in peril.
Luther's Experience: This incident is significant as it marked a turning point in Luther's life, leading him to abandon his studies in law and enter the monastic life, where he later developed his critical views on Church practices and doctrines, sparking the Reformation.
Luther's Transition
Luther's prayer to Saint Anne illustrates the deep religious and cultural context of his time, where invoking saints for protection and intercession was a common practice. However, as he developed his theological positions, he moved away from the veneration of saints, emphasizing direct access to God through faith in Jesus Christ alone. This shift was a hallmark of his teachings and played a crucial role in the development of Protestant theology.

Shalom
J.
 

BreadOfLife

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No.
Spiritual prayers are only TO the Lord God Almighty.
They are FROM a mans spirit TO the Lord God Almighty’s SPIRIT!
Men do NOT pray TO angel spirits.
Men do NOT pray TO mens spirits.

Men DO PRAY…FOR men.

Pretending earthly mankind is scripturally taught to PRAY “TO” created and made spirits in heaven is NOT TRUE.
Here we go again.
Time for aan English Lesson . . .

******************************
Definition of the word “PRAY”:

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:

Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1:
entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1:
to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Acts 27:34 - KJV
"Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you".