What is the mystery that Paul references in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52? Is it the rapture (catching up to Christ) as pretrib teaches or something else?

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are forgetting that Paul wrote to his first-century readers, saying, "...they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come." (1 Cor. 10:11).

Hebrews 9:26 said the same thing about those first century days. "But NOW once in the consummation of the ages hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." This was the same thing that Peter wrote about in 1 Peter 4:7, saying "the END of all things is at hand" for the time in which Peter was writing.

There was an "end of the ages" and an "end of all things" that was then taking place in the first century. Other ages followed that end, as Paul also wrote about "the ages that are coming" in Ephesians 2:7, but this did not detract from the fact that God was bringing a conclusion to a set of ages back then in the first century. And that particular end of those ages would include Christ's second coming return and a bodily resurrection and judgment.

All that means is that what John called "the last time" (1 John 2:18) and Peter called "the last days" (Acts 2:16) had already begun back then. The reason they called it "the last time" and "the last days" was because they knew that the New Testament time period would be the last time period in history because one Jesus came again He would burn up and renew the heavens and the earth and put an end to time itself and then the eternal new heavens and new earth age would be ushered in. But, in no way, shape or form did it indicate that the literal end of all things was near. Hello! Time and history didn't end in 70 AD. Good grief.

No, that is NOT what Matthew 16:28 wrote. You are misquoting Christ.

I didn't quote Him as saying what I said, I was giving my interpretation of what He said. Was it just a coincidence that right after it says He talked about some standing there being alive to see Him come in power in His kingdom it immediately goes into a description of His transfiguration where He appeared to them in glory just as He would appear at His coming with His angels? That was no coincidence. That was what He was talking about in Matthew 16:28.

He did NOT say He was going to give a so-called "preview" of His future return before some of those He personally spoke to had died.

I am saying that is my understanding of what He was talking about in Matthew 16:28. He didn't say that some standing there would be alive at His coming with His angels, He indicated that some standing there would see a display of His power and glory and that is exactly what James, John and Peter witnessed. How can you think that Him appearing to them in all His glory (which frightened them) gave them a preview or taste of what His coming in glory with His angels would be like?

He said He would actually return in the glory of His Father with His angels, to give rewards to all according to their works before some of them had died.

Now, who is the one misquoting Jesus. That is NOT what He said in verse 28. He said He would come with His angels in verse 27. No mention of coming with His angels before some of them had died in verse 28. And then you act as if His transfiguration had nothing to do with Him talking about appearing in glory for some of those standing there to see even though that is exactly what He did in His transfiguration. At least they got it right in Luke 9 by not foolishly putting a chapter break after He talked about Him coming in power for some of those standing there to see.

There is a world of difference between your made-up "preview", and His stated purpose of actually returning before some of them had died. You were not there in the first century to be an eye-witness of what happened or did not happen in that generation. So your denial that Christ fulfilled His promised return back in the first century is useless.

Your whole doctrine is useless. Jesus absolutely has not returned yet. Who saw Him return in 70 AD? No one, of course. Your doctrine is full of make believe fairy tales that are a result of taking many scriptures out of context while attempting to relate unrelated scriptures. It's a complete mess.

For Christ to have put a limit on His own knowledge of the day and hour of His return did not mean He had no knowledge at all of the approximate season for it. Indeed, He scolded the Pharisees for not being able to discern the times surrounding His return, even though they could read the skies to predict the weather. Even the devils knew the approximate time of their own judgment, and asked Christ if He had come "before the time" to punish them.

Christ in the Olivet Discourse told the disciples the particular signs that would occur before His first-century coming return. He gave the entire list of ominous events in Luke 21:8-35, and then announced to the disciples that they were to "watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that are ABOUT TO come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." And that INCLUDED His own coming return at the end of the list of ALL things that were "ABOUT TO come to pass". Just as soon as Christ's final ascension in Acts 1, the persecution of the early church believers would begin. Matthew 24:8's record of the Olivet Discourse called the beginning of all these ominous events "the beginning of sorrows" for the disciples in that first-century generation.

What a bunch of doctrinally biased garbage. He did not return in 70 AD! It says when He returns every eye would see Him. Who saw Him return then? No one! There was no resurrection at that time, no catching up of His people to Himself "in the air", no day of judgment at that time. This is pure lunacy. Utter nonsense. You mistake verses about the certainty of His coming with them saying He was coming literally soon.

No, Christ was NOT ignorant of the season for His first-century coming return that would come "immediately after the tribulation of those days", since He knew about the escalating series of persecutions and tribulations that immediately preceded His return.

Jesus said no one, including Himself, except for the Father knew the day or hour of His second coming, but you say He did. I will accept what Jesus said over what you say every time.

Christ was not as clueless as you suppose He was.

After this post I'm done with you. For you to accuse me of thinking Christ was clueless is way over the lines and shows me that I'm arguing with a foolish person and wasting my time. By debating someone like you who has a doctrine all to yourself, I'm implying that it has validity, but the truth is that it has none. So, I'm not going to waste any more time on this after I respond to this post. I'll have to continue my response in another post since this post will go over the 10,000 character limit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, that WAS the "First resurrection" of "Christ the First-fruits". But don't forget those whom Christ brought out of the grave on that same day - the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints. There were 144,000 of those "First-fruits" saints who participated in that same "First resurrection" event the same day as Christ had arisen from the dead. They shared Christ's same title of being the "First-fruits" because they shared the same "First resurrection" event in AD 33.

Show me where that is indicated in this passage:

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul gave the order of resurrections here and when you also take 1 Cor 15:50-54 into account, it should be clear that he was talking about resurrections unto bodily immortality. Christ the firstfruit(s) was the first to be resurrected unto bodily. Next in order are "they that are Christ's at his coming". That's it! No mention of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints. No mention of a separate resurrection of 144,000. Paul indicated that "in Christ shall ALL be made alive" at His second coming. Not some one time, some another time and then the rest at His coming. Your doctrine blatantly contradicts what Paul taught here. Why would you not allow what Paul taught to be the foundation of your understanding of the resurrection of the dead and then interpret other verses about the resurrection of the dead accordingly? Paul very clearly said ALL who are in Christ would be resurrected at the same time which will be at His second coming. Why interpret other verses related to people being resurrected in such a way that contradicts what Paul taught? That makes no sense.

Jesus also taught that all believers would be resurrected at the same time.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus very explicitly taught that a single hour or time is coming when ALL who are in the graves will be resurrected with "they that have done good" being resurrected "unto the resurrection of life". That's the same ones who Paul references in 1 Cor 15:22-23.

Those Matthew 27:52-53 saints are not said to have been resurrected to bodily immortality. The only thing we can conclude without contradicting scripture like 1 Cor 15:22-23 is that they later died just like Lazarus and others who were resurrected. I know you will respond with your rigid, hyper-literal interpretation of Hebrews 9:27 but to think there can't be any exceptions to what is written there is ludicrous.

Why are you so irate about Christ staging three resurrection events over time instead of your assumed once-and-done resurrection event, which scripture does not even teach?

Because I believe in truth and that is not true. I just showed that scripture VERY CLEARLY teaches one resurrection event of all believers at the same time or hour and it just so happens that all unbelievers will be resurrected at that time as well. And then they all will be gathered at the same time to face judgment as depicted in Matthew 25:31-46.

Why should it bother you that all those saints who had died up until Christ's first-century return should already be "raptured" and enjoying resurrected eternal life with God in heaven before you yourself get to arrive there?

Hello! Why should it bother me if you are teaching falsehood? Really? If your docrine was true, I wouldn't be bothered, but it isn't true. Should I ask you why it should bother you if all saints from all time are all resurrected at the same time? Would that be a question that makes any sense to ask when it obviously would bother you since you don't believe it's true?

That's a rather myopic view, and a self-centered one at that.

LOL. What in the world are you talking about?

The whole of human history and prophetic scripture does not revolve around our own current generation.

No, it revolves around the future glorious appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ when He will meet bodily with all who belong to Him from all-time. I'm not focusing just on people alive today, I'm focusing on believers from all-time all being gathered together with Christ. What in the world is self-centered about that? Nothing.

You and I get to join those already-resurrected and raptured saints in the next resurrection event coming in our future.

We get to join them but they are not already resurrected and raptured. That is pure nonsense that is not taught anywhere in scripture. Your doctrine is a joke. It's make believe. It's a convoluted mess similar to how pre-trib dispensationalism is a convoluted mess. It's impossible to follow. It's a maze of misinterpretations and the joining of unrelated scriptures.

 

[3 Resurrections]

All that means is that what John called "the last time" (1 John 2:18) and Peter called "the last days" (Acts 2:16) had already begun back then. The reason they called it "the last time" and "the last days" was because they knew that the New Testament time period would be the last time period in history because one Jesus came again He would burn up and renew the heavens and the earth and put an end to time itself and then the eternal new heavens and new earth age would be ushered in. But, in no way, shape or form did it indicate that the literal end of all things was near. Hello! Time and history didn't end in 70 AD. Good grief.

Those "last days" had progressed to 1 John 2:18 saying, "little children IT IS THE LAST HOUR" as John was writing that statement. Something was then coming to an end in that first century. Paul said that the ends of the ages had arrived, and that there would be a new set of "the ages that are coming" from Paul's perspective on the timeline. I never wrote that time and history ended in AD 70. That "ends of the ages" was what "shattered the power of the holy people", as Daniel 12:7 had predicted for the Jewish nation, and ushered in the New Jerusalem's New Heavens and New Earth conditions which we are still living under today.

I am saying that is my understanding of what He was talking about in Matthew 16:28. He didn't say that some standing there would be alive at His coming with His angels,

YES. HE. DID. SAY. THAT. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Matthew 16:27-28 is very clear that Christ said some of those He was speaking to at that moment would not have died before He returned with angels in the glory of His Father, to give rewards to everyone according to their works. The second coming bodily return of Christ occurred while some He was speaking to in the first century would still be living. This is confirmed by every other NT author who wrote on this subject who all said the same thing.

Jesus absolutely has not returned yet. Who saw Him return in 70 AD? No one, of course.

We are told who would see Christ's second coming return to the Mount of Olives location. It was specifically "those who pierced Him" (Rev. 1:7, Zech 12:10). The fate of those eye-witnesses of Christ's return was to either die afterward in the besieged city of Jerusalem, or to be taken captive into all nations by the Romans (Luke 21:24). Dead people and prisoners do not have the opportunity to make records of what they saw.

Who are you to deny what Christ said He was going to do back in that first-century generation? You were not there to say what either did or did not happen. Your testimony against Christ's words would be useless in a court of law, as being far removed from the events of that time period by some 2,000 years.

It says when He returns every eye would see Him.

Sure it does - and it specifically describes which group of people whose "every eye" would see Him return. It would be the tribal members of the nation of Israel - "namely, those who pierced Him" who would see this. It was the Jewish nation who the martyr Stephen accused of being "the betrayers and murderers" of their Messiah. And it was the Jewish leadership who called down the blood curse upon themselves and their children who became the eye-witnesses of Christ's return to that Mount of Olives location in AD 70.

You mistakenly assume that "every eye" describes every person on the entire globe simultaneously witnessing an event taking place on the Mount of Olives. It isn't even physically possible. And scripture never says that this is the case.

We get to join them but they are not already resurrected and raptured.

You are wrong. All those resurrected saints from creation forward until AD 70's Pentecost day (Daniel's 1,335 day) were gathered by the angels and "raptured" to heaven at Christ's second coming back then. James 5 wrote that "the coming of the Lord has drawn near" and "the Judge is standing before the door" at the time he was writing. That judgment and coming happened in James' first century time frame, just as Christ predicted, and while some of those He spoke to while on earth were still living.

Jesus very explicitly taught that a single hour or time is coming when ALL who are in the graves will be resurrected with "they that have done good" being resurrected "unto the resurrection of life". That's the same ones who Paul references in 1 Cor 15:22-23.

Sure, that was ALL the saints who had died from creation up until that AD 70 bodily return of Christ to the Mount of Olives. These were ALL taken back to heaven with the returning Christ, including the Matthew 27:52-53 "First-fruits - the 144,000 already-resurrected saints of the "First resurrection" who had remained on earth until then.

Those Matthew 27:52-53 saints are not said to have been resurrected to bodily immortality. The only thing we can conclude without contradicting scripture like 1 Cor 15:22-23 is that they later died just like Lazarus and others who were resurrected.

You are making up doctrine here. Scripture nowhere teaches that a resurrected saint can die again. It teaches otherwise (Luke 20:36). Any bodily resurrection is done by the Holy Spirit's power, and is not capable of being undone by that resurrected person dying again. It is simply not a reversible process. The Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints who numbered 144,000 "First-fruits" were raised to an eternal, immortal and incorruptible life, and were not capable of dying again. Just like Romans 6:9 describes Christ's resurrection - He "dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him" - any other resurrected bodies of the saints are likewise changed and "made like unto His glorious body" (Phil. 3:21).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

LOL. Of course not. Are you aware that I'm an amillennialist? I'm pretty sure I've indicated that to you before, but I don't know if you recall that or not. So, what I believe will happen at His return is that we will be caught up to Him in the air and then He will proceed to take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:". Since we will have immortal bodies at that point, it doesn't leave any mortals to populate the earth as premils like yourself believe.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


But, that is not described in scripture anywhere. In Revelation 19 it describes the time of the marriage having come and the bride being ready for the marriage and that is followed by a depiction of the second coming of Christ where He comes with His armies and defeats all of His enemies. How does what is described there have anything to do with a pre-trib rapture?

It shows that the bride is in heaven before the return of Jesus. she(the church) has gone through the bema judgment, her works tried and the bad burned and the good rewarded.

The fact the wedding takes place in heaven is that "is come" is 2nd aorist active indiciative which means in a modern word picture is like the bride standing at the beginning of the aisle and the wedding march prepared to be played.

After teh wedding, Jesus returns physically and the wedding feast takes place.

Sorry you are an amillenialist, you will see that jesus does physically reign on earth as King of Kings for 1000 years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

YES. HE. DID. SAY. THAT. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

No, but you definitely do. A very serious one.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I was referring to this verse specifically which your serious reading comprehension problem apparently caused you to miss. I see no mention of angels here. You obviously have a very serious reading comprehension problem that causes you to see words that aren't there.

We are told who would see Christ's second coming return to the Mount of Olives location. It was specifically "those who pierced Him" (Rev. 1:7, Zech 12:10).

You cannot use those Revelation 1:7 to prove that He came in 70 AD. Those who pierced Him will all be resurrected, so they will all see Him when He comes in the future. As for Zechariah 12:10, you are taking that verse out of context. It doesn't have the same context as Revelation 1:7. Jesus quoted it in John 19:37 in relation to the day that He died. That verse is talking about people mourning His death while Revelation 1:7 is talking about unbelievers wailing in fear from seeing Him because they know His wrath is coming on them (Revelation 6:12-17).

I'm not sure why I'm even talking to you. Your doctrine is a complete joke. Your interpretation of Revelation 20 is one of the worst and most ridiculous interpretations of scripture I've ever seen. Having Jesus reigning for a literal thousand years before His resurrection? What nonsense. Anyone who interprets a passage like that can't be trusted to interpret any scripture accurately.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It shows that the bride is in heaven before the return of Jesus. she(the church) has gone through the bema judgment, her works tried and the bad burned and the good rewarded.

Some of the bride is there, not all. Do you not believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven now?

The fact the wedding takes place in heaven is that "is come" is 2nd aorist active indiciative which means in a modern word picture is like the bride standing at the beginning of the aisle and the wedding march prepared to be played.

Nonsense. You are making scripture say what you want it to say. There is no indication there that the wedding takes place in heaven. You pretending to be a Greek expert is not convincing at all. What it is saying is that the time of the marriage will have come at that point without giving any indication of where the marriage actually takes place. Keeping other scripture in mind, what will happen at that point is that Jesus will take the souls of the dead in Christ with Him from heaven and unit them with their resurrected and changed bodies and gather them to Himself "in the air" along with those who are alive and remain. At that point He will take vengeance on and destroy His enemies with "sudden destruction" by fire from which "they shall not escape" (2 Thess 1:7-10, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

After teh wedding, Jesus returns physically and the wedding feast takes place.

Sorry you are an amillenialist, you will see that jesus does physically reign on earth as King of Kings for 1000 years.

No, He will not. That belief contradicts many scriptures which teach that no mortals will survive His second coming and that all will be resurrected and judged on the same day.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Some of the bride is there, not all. Do you not believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven now?

Yes I do! but the church ends at the raputre which you disbelieve.

Nonsense. You are making scripture say what you want it to say. There is no indication there that the wedding takes place in heaven. You pretending to be a Greek expert is not convincing at all. What it is saying is that the time of the marriage will have come at that point without giving any indication of where the marriage actually takes place. Keeping other scripture in mind, what will happen at that point is that Jesus will take the souls of the dead in Christ with Him from heaven and unit them with their resurrected and changed bodies and gather them to Himself "in the air" along with those who are alive and remain. At that point He will take vengeance on and destroy His enemies with "sudden destruction" by fire from which "they shall not escape" (2 Thess 1:7-10, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

Well to know this, you must follow rules of grammar and understand what is said in the Greek. Teh wedding takes place in heaven.
I know I am no greek expert, but I do rely on Greek experts. I only had 1 year of greek studies.

YOur concept of the rapture is just silly. Jesus is coming back down to earth, while He is on the way, He snatches the dead bodies, and takes those alive and in a minute or two he is back on earth. YOu believe in a rapture, but long long after the church was already raptures, stood before the bema seat and made herself ready by having those dead works burned as declared in Corinth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes I do! but the church ends at the raputre which you disbelieve.

I definitely don't believe that the church ever ends, so you're right about that. Scripture never teaches such an utterly nonsensical thing as that.

Well to know this, you must follow rules of grammar and understand what is said in the Greek. Teh wedding takes place in heaven.
I know I am no greek expert, but I do rely on Greek experts. I only had 1 year of greek studies.

I disagree. The Greek does not say that the wedding takes place in heaven. The Greek indicates that the time for the wedding will have come at that point when Jesus will come again, as indicated in Revelation 19, but does not specify where the wedding would take place.

Do you understand that even Greek experts don't all agree with each other? It's not as if knowing Greek automatically means you will discern the meaning of the original Greek scriptures accurately.

YOur concept of the rapture is just silly.

Why?

Jesus is coming back down to earth, while He is on the way, He snatches the dead bodies, and takes those alive and in a minute or two he is back on earth. YOu believe in a rapture, but long long after the church was already raptures, stood before the bema seat and made herself ready by having those dead works burned as declared in Corinth.

Tell me why we will meet Jesus "in the air" if He is coming down to earth? Why wouldn't we just meet Him on the earth? I ask a similar question to pre-tribs. Why would we meet Him "in the air" instead of in heaven if He is going to take us to heaven. Premillennialism is what is silly, not my Amillennialism view. Premils, whether pre-trib or post-trib, have no answer for why we will meet Jesus "in the air" rather than in heaven or on earth. Amils have a very reasonable explanation for that. It will be because He will be renewing heaven and earth at that time (2 Peter 3:10-12). So, we will be taken to the new earth after that, not the earth as we know it now.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No, but you definitely do. A very serious one.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I was referring to this verse specifically which your serious reading comprehension problem apparently caused you to miss. I see no mention of angels here. You obviously have a very serious reading comprehension problem that causes you to see words that aren't there.

Do you actually have no perception of what a scripture context is? Matthew 16:27-28 says "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." It is Christ's COMING which is described in both of these verses, and the first-century timing of that return.

THEN. NEW SUBJECT INTRODUCED in Matt. 17:1. "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother...." etc.. The Mount of Transfiguration was NOT a "coming" in any sense of the word. No angels were involved, and no rewards given out. It was not a preview of Christ's coming return either. If anything, it was a preview of Christ's glorified resurrection appearance, since Elijah and Moses were speaking with Christ about His approaching death at Jerusalem.

You are trying desperately to explain away the very clear statement of Christ in Matt. 16:27-28, and it can't be done. Especially when every other NT author who wrote on this subject also confirmed Christ's first-century coming return. These all gave a unanimous message of an imminent return of Christ in the NT writings, and before that generation had passed away. The disciples were told that they personally would not have gone over the cities of Israel before the Son of Man had come (Matthew 10:23). Apparently then, you believe that there are still some of the original 12 disciples alive and evangelizing the cities of Israel today, since you don't think Christ returned in that first century as He said He would.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you actually have no perception of what a scripture context is?

Yes, I do. Do you? It appears not. How can someone claim to understand context when they have the ludicrous notion that Revelation 20 has something to do with Christ reigning for a literal thousand years even before His resurrection? No one who has a ridiculous interpretation like that should try to tell anyone else how to understand context.

Matthew 16:27-28 says "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." It is Christ's COMING which is described in both of these verses, and the first-century timing of that return.

THEN. NEW SUBJECT INTRODUCED in Matt. 17:1. "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother...." etc.. The Mount of Transfiguration was NOT a "coming" in any sense of the word. No angels were involved, and no rewards given out. It was not a preview of Christ's coming return either.

Yes, it was! Preterism is such a horrible doctrine. It doesn't encourage Christians to be excited about the future glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ! He will appear in glory on that day! And He appeared in glory to Peter, James and John at His transfiguration. So, your claim that that was not a preview of His coming in glory is RIDICULOUS!

 

[3 Resurrections]

How can someone claim to understand context when they have the ludicrous notion that Revelation 20 has something to do with Christ reigning for a literal thousand years even before His resurrection? No one who has a ridiculous interpretation like that should try to tell anyone else how to understand context.

This post is really about the rapture or Paul's 1 Cor. 15:51-52 text concerning the resurrection experience. It's best to keep discussions of the millennium separate, don't you think?

Preterism is such a horrible doctrine. It doesn't encourage Christians to be excited about the future glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ! He will appear in glory on that day!

Well, I am a Preterist, and I strongly teach about a future return of Christ in glory for the next resurrection event and judgment. In fact, that future bodily return of Christ I believe scripture patterns show will be in 3033 in the 7th month of that year. Do you know of any Preterist who posits this date? Probably not.

 

[grafted branch]

In fact, that future bodily return of Christ I believe scripture patterns show will be in 3033 in the 7th month of that year.

I’m following along with your discussion here, I know you use the three harvest to show when resurrecting happens and Christ returns, but can you give me some more details on why the year 3033? That seems like a long ways out if we compare it to a 33AD and 70AD harvest.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I’m following along with your discussion here, I know you use the three harvest to show when resurrecting happens and Christ returns, but can you give me some more details on why the year 3033? That seems like a long ways out if we compare it to a 33AD and 70AD harvest.

Sure, I can explain how I arrive at that particular dated year of AD 3033, but it veers just a bit off the topic, if you can endure that.

Many before me have recognized (including some on this forum) that God planned a total of 7,000 years for fallen mankind's history on this planet before He draws it to a close in the final judgment with a final resurrection. The pattern of 7 literal 24-hour days of creation week provided the initial design. In fact, if you look at the particular creative act of each day of Creation week, each of those 7 days provides a picture corresponding to God's prevailing theme for each of the 7 millennia of human history. I could write out those matching comparisons for you if you wish.

Beginning with the Fall in the Garden of Eden, there were 3 literal thousand-year periods when Satan and his devils were allowed to freely circulate among the nations and deceive them at will. Paul called these "the times of this ignorance God winked at" (Acts 17:30), and "Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways" (Acts 14:16). Ignorance of the true God was pretty widespread, with only the nation of Israel being granted the ordinances of the Old Covenant.

Then there was a 4th period of another literal thousand years of Satan's deception of the nations being bound (similar to the 4th day of creation week when God created the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament to give light on the earth both day and night). This began with the foundation stone of Solomon's temple being laid down in 968 / 967 BC, and continued with the surge in the prophets' ministries, both spoken and written. Every time a prophet opened his mouth and pronounced "thus saith the Lord..." the forces of spiritual darkness were further restrained on earth by the revelation of God's words giving "light" to man - even among the pagan empires of the world .

This 4th millennium of history, when Satan's deception of the nations was being bound, lasted until Christ's resurrection-day ascension in AD 33. This was the day when Satan and his devils were cast out of heaven down to the earth and sea (Rev. 12:12), to harass and deceive the nations once more for just "a short time" (the same as the "little season" of Satan's release at the END of the Rev. 20 millennium.)

Because this 4th millennium (the Rev. 20 millennium) was "FINISHED" and "EXPIRED" with the "First resurrection" in AD 33, that left 3 more millennial periods to follow afterward until the end of fallen mankind's history on this planet. When you add those 3,000 years to the AD 33 ending point of the 4th millennium, you arrive at a final judgment and resurrection in the year AD 3033.

As you say, it seems a "long ways out" from the first two group resurrection events in AD 33 and AD 70, but it matches very well with the Israelite agricultural patterns. Passover and Pentecost were only 50 days apart (just like the AD 33 Passover "First resurrection" and AD 70's Pentecost day resurrection at Christ's return were fairly close to each other.) But in Israel's climate, following Pentecost, there was typically a long five months with no rainfall whatever until the winter rainy season that arrived after the "feast of ingathering" in the 7th month. Just like there is quite a lengthy period of time between an AD 70 bodily resurrection event at Christ's second coming and His future bodily return in AD 3033.

The "feast of ingathering" or the "feast of tabernacles" was linked with the Day of Atonement and periodically the "Jubilee" when the trumpet sounded in the 10th day of the 7th month, announcing "a return of every man unto his possession" when "ye shall return every man unto his family" (Leviticus 25:9-10). This language of celebration for the year of Jubilee in the 7th month is so evocative of a final bodily resurrection for the saints when our resurrected physical bodies are changed to the immortal and we "return to our possession" of a restored fellowship with God and with our family in heaven.

In the meantime, at present we are rapidly approaching the end of the sixth millennium of fallen mankind's history on earth. This transition to the beginning of the final 7th millennium will occur in AD 2033. We know that the number "7" in scripture is typically connected with a fallow period of imposed Sabbath rest, for the good of mankind, and even for the dirt itself under our feet. I believe God is about to impose a sort of fallow, Sabbatical period for this entire globe at the beginning of this 7th millennium. Leading up to this 7th millennial period of imposed rest, we have been passing through a tumultuous series of current events in this world, which anybody who isn't asleep at the wheel can recognize. Up until now, God has poured out untold blessings on the world at large throughout this current 6th millennium of history (since the phasing out of the "dark ages"), just as He once gave a double portion of manna on the 6th day, enough to sustain the Israelites through the 7th day of Sabbath rest. This 6th millennium period of being doubly blessed is about to change with the transition to the 7th millennium.

But all of this is for God's intended purpose and promise of increasing the kingdom of God in this world, and to refine the faith of His people and bring them closer to Himself. When we come face to face with our total dependence upon God for even our daily bread and water, the faith of true believers tends to grow stronger.

 

[grafted branch]

In fact, if you look at the particular creative act of each day of Creation week, each of those 7 days provides a picture corresponding to God's prevailing theme for each of the 7 millennia of human history. I could write out those matching comparisons for you if you wish.

Thanks for taking the time to give that explanation. I am interested in how you’re comparing the initial 7 days with human history.

Here is a brief summary of creation, can you fill in the question marks? I threw in what I think you might say after the question marks, just for fun.

Day 1 light ? Should be initial creation.

Day 2 firmament ? Time prior to Israel, includes the flood.

Day 3 dry ground ? Time after the flood where Israel is Gods chosen people.

Day 4 sun, moon, stars. The millennium, where Satan is bound and the light reaches the nations.

Day 5 fish and birds ? Start of the church.

Day 6 creatures on land ? I’m not sure about this one.

Day 7 rest. A future period where perhaps technology allows us to rest. Incidentally Elon Musk recently said he sees AI creating a situation where people can work if desired but it won’t be necessary.

Ok, like I said I’m interested, what does your list of the Days look like?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This post is really about the rapture or Paul's 1 Cor. 15:51-52 text concerning the resurrection experience. It's best to keep discussions of the millennium separate, don't you think?

You asked me "Do you actually have no perception of what a scripture context is?". I showed how ridiculous it is for you, of all people, to ask me that. You are the one who got off topic by questioning my ability to know what scripture context is and I responded by showing you that you are being hypocritical by asking me that question as if you know what scripture context is any better than I do. Your utterly ludicrous interpretation of Revelation 20 proves that you don't have a strong grasp of what scripture context is.

Well, I am a Preterist, and I strongly teach about a future return of Christ in glory for the next resurrection event and judgment. In fact, that future bodily return of Christ I believe scripture patterns show will be in 3033 in the 7th month of that year. Do you know of any Preterist who posits this date? Probably not.

I'm glad that you do at least believe in the future return of Christ in glory.

But, I do have a problem with you, and other lone wolves like you, having beliefs all to yourself. I think people like you must be very arrogant to think that God reveals the truth of some things only to you and no one else. I can't even fathom how highly someone must think of themselves to think that God would reveal things only to you and no one else in the world. It's ridiculous. I can't even put into words how ridiculous it is for you to date the return of Christ, so I'll leave that alone. I believe date setting isn't even allowed here, but I think that is more for people to not get obsessed with waiting on a certain date to see if He actually comes on that date. Obviously, no one here will still be alive 1,000+ years from now.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I believe date setting isn't even allowed here, but I think that is more for people to not get obsessed with waiting on a certain date to see if He actually comes on that date. Obviously, no one here will still be alive 1,000+ years from

Obviously, no - nobody here will be alive then. Every believer alive at present should not react with fear to our turbulent current events, and should just buckle down and follow our marching orders given in the Great Commission to Christ's disciples. No need to panic with what God is planning for our generation, because it will always be to the good of His kingdom on earth and its growth, all the way up until the final resurrection and judgment, as He promised for His kingdom on earth.

As for "date setting", yes, I realize that people have constantly proposed mistaken dates for Christ's return - probably ever since He ascended in Acts 1, really. But there is no scripture command for us NOT to search for that date. Scripture only states as a THEN-PRESENT FACT in the first century that no one then knew the day and the hour of Christ's return. This is similar to us today saying, "No man knoweth the day nor the hour of the next hurricane's landfall". Nothing wrong with a meteorologist attempting some storm predictions for people to be prepared, however. And once the next hurricane sweeps through, we will most definitely know by then the day and the hour when that hurricane makes landfall.

But Daniel 12:11-13 gave the very specific details regarding that 1,335th day in which he himself was promised to share in that Daniel 12 resurrection event. Daniel was given two distinct events that would occur in the same season which would begin that 1,335-day countdown to Christ's return. No one during Christ's earthly ministry knew when those two events would occur in the same season, but they were to watch for those two signs happening in conjunction with each other. When they saw the "abomination of desolation" or "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" in the same season when a daily sacrifice had just been eliminated (which had both happened by late AD 66), THEN they could start the 1,335-day countdown to Christ's return and the bodily resurrection. If they were to die before that date in AD 70 arrived, they themselves would participate in that resurrection. And that resurrection day arrived on AD 70's Pentecost day. There is even archaeological proof of this having happened.

Try not to presume what my motives might be behind posting comments such as this. I myself do not presume that you are a proud, inflexible individual with an arrogant opinion of yourself, just because your views are not in sync with what I post. I honestly think everyone here is trying their best to make sense of the scriptures to the best of their ability, and earnestly want to share that with others. Different views are just an opportunity for us to exercise grace to each other in front of a watching world.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Day 1 light ? Should be initial creation.

Day 2 firmament ? Time prior to Israel, includes the flood. (YES)

Day 3 dry ground ? Time after the flood where Israel is Gods chosen people. (YES)

Day 4 sun, moon, stars. The millennium, where Satan is bound and the light reaches the nations. (YES)

Day 5 fish and birds ? Start of the church. (YES)

Day 6 creatures on land ? I’m not sure about this one.

Day 7 rest. A future period where perhaps technology allows us to rest. Incidentally Elon Musk recently said he sees AI creating a situation where people can work if desired but it won’t be necessary. (PERHAPS)

Ok, like I said I’m interested, what does your list of the Days look like?

Okay, here goes...I'll just have to duck if the off-topic police come around...

Day #1 - God divides the light from darkness. The fallen Adam (who lived to be 930 - almost all of that first thousand years) provided the main example of God, the source of all light, having to separate Himself from the darkness of fallen mankind when He sent Adam and Eve from the garden, with two cherubim forbidding them re-entry. Light / holiness was separated from darkness / sinful mankind. God made a covenant with Adam, that in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit, that "dying thou shalt die".

Day #2 - God makes a division in the waters: those waters above the firmament from those below the firmament. God made a covenant with Noah in the 2nd millennium of human history. Noah illustrated this main theme of Day #2 when God selected this one man and his family to survive in the ark above the flood waters, while all other life that breathed sank below those waters and died. Also, prior to the flood, it had never rained. Afterward, man's crops became dependent upon rainfall from above rather than the mist coming up from below the ground.

Day #3 - God separates the dry land from the oceans, with vegetation and fruit-bearing trees, and herbs bearing seed beginning to grow, each after their kind. God made a covenant with Abraham in the 3rd millennium, and sent him to go to the land of Canaan. Abraham symbolized this separation of the dry land from the oceans when God chose him from out of the pagan nations to be "a father of many nations" - with his seed as many as the stars for multitude. The separation between the "sea" of the gentile nations and the "land" of Israel is a constant theme in the scriptures.

Day #4 - God makes great lights to rule the day and night - the sun, moon, and stars to be for signs, and seasons, and for days and years. God made a covenant regarding David's son Solomon, that He would not take His spirit from him, and that Solomon would build a temple for Him. This 4th millennium (the Rev. 20 millennium) began with Solomon laying down the temple foundation stone in 968 / 967 BC and lasted until AD 33. This temple foundation stone being laid down initiated the fame of Solomon's kingdom among the nations, and of the God of Israel who was given worship in that temple. Knowledge of the God of Israel began to spread to the pagan nations of the world, even (and especially) when Israel went into captivity among those nations. The surge in the prophets' ministries during this time continued to bind Satan's deception of the nations who had been kept in ignorance of the God of Israel for the most part in the 3 prior millennial ages before then. This did not necessarily have to result in a saving knowledge of God, but it did remove their deceived ignorance of the God of Israel. God's "lights" of this millennium prevailed over Satan keeping the nations in total "darkness" of ignorance about Himself.

Day #5 - God creates life forms abundantly in the seas, and fowl to multiply in the earth. God chose Paul in the days of the early church to be a "chosen vessel" whom He would send to the Gentiles. Evangelism exploded into the Gentile nations of the world during this 5th millennium - the "seas" of the Gentile nations multiplying spiritual life abundantly, just as there was still a remnant of those in the "land" of Israel who were becoming believers as well.

Day #6 - God creates beasts on earth to reproduce after their kind, and man and woman with the command to be fruitful and "have dominion" over the created world and its creatures. There are scripture examples in the OT of God giving a greater-than-ordinary blessing on the 6th day, and the 6th year. During this 6th millennium of human history, mankind's ability to have dominion over this planet has increased steadily and exponentially. The "dark ages" phased out - Magna Carta - the printing press invented - the Reformation was launched - the Renaissance - the Industrial Revolution - the growth of America as a nation - the Great Awakening and other revivals - hospitals and universities and libraries - indoor plumbing ! - the automotive industry and interstate connections - aviation - shipping - computer development - medical improvements - advancements in agriculture and crop yields - the internet - AI - the list goes on and on. God has certainly given a double blessing to our 6th millennium as no other millennium has ever experienced before. But this super-abundance, (like Sodom's "fullness of bread and abundance of idleness"), has led to our abuse of these gifts in many respects. God has been long-suffering, but is now stirring Himself to bring about correcting our abuse of His manifold gifts. As always, He will exercise mercy along with justice and judgment.

Day #7 - God rested from all His works and blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it. We are about to enter the 7th millennium which will begin in 2033 (since the 4th millennium ended in AD 33 with Christ's resurrection day ascension to the Father). Typically in scripture, the number "7" is linked with a Sabbath period of some kind, where the land was supposed to go fallow in a Sabbath year, and people were to rest and recuperate in order to begin another week of activity. Cycles of rest are essential, and this frenzied, money-driven, indebted world needs to be brought down to a more basic mode of living when they can "be still and know that I am God" - when God can be exalted in the earth and among the heathen. This period of imposed rest on this planet - however God intends to accomplish that - will culminate with His bodily return and a last resurrection and judgment which finally purifies this planet of its remaining human evil for all time. In 3033. This will then begin the ages of eternity for us as resurrected believers.

You have done a much better job with being concise above, grafted branch. I marked where I agreed with you, as you can see.

 

[Scott Downey]

So, which coming is the Apostle Paul a part of?

IF you are right, why did Paul only inform the Thessalonians and Corinthians in part?


Paul informed the Thessalonian's that what he was teaching them was the Lords own word...,

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

So where did Jesus teach this other coming you propose?

For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word,
This must have been spoken out as a prophecy in the early church.
And was accepted by the Apostles as truth as God bore witness to it within them, as coming from the Lord.
It is not found in the Gospels.

 

[grafted branch]

Okay, here goes...I'll just have to duck if the off-topic police come around...

Day #1 - God divides the light from darkness. The fallen Adam (who lived to be 930 - almost all of that first thousand years) provided the main example of God, the source of all light, having to separate Himself from the darkness of fallen mankind when He sent Adam and Eve from the garden, with two cherubim forbidding them re-entry. Light / holiness was separated from darkness / sinful mankind. God made a covenant with Adam, that in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit, that "dying thou shalt die".

Day #2 - God makes a division in the waters: those waters above the firmament from those below the firmament. God made a covenant with Noah in the 2nd millennium of human history. Noah illustrated this main theme of Day #2 when God selected this one man and his family to survive in the ark above the flood waters, while all other life that breathed sank below those waters and died. Also, prior to the flood, it had never rained. Afterward, man's crops became dependent upon rainfall from above rather than the mist coming up from below the ground.

Day #3 - God separates the dry land from the oceans, with vegetation and fruit-bearing trees, and herbs bearing seed beginning to grow, each after their kind. God made a covenant with Abraham in the 3rd millennium, and sent him to go to the land of Canaan. Abraham symbolized this separation of the dry land from the oceans when God chose him from out of the pagan nations to be "a father of many nations" - with his seed as many as the stars for multitude. The separation between the "sea" of the gentile nations and the "land" of Israel is a constant theme in the scriptures.

Day #4 - God makes great lights to rule the day and night - the sun, moon, and stars to be for signs, and seasons, and for days and years. God made a covenant regarding David's son Solomon, that He would not take His spirit from him, and that Solomon would build a temple for Him. This 4th millennium (the Rev. 20 millennium) began with Solomon laying down the temple foundation stone in 968 / 967 BC and lasted until AD 33. This temple foundation stone being laid down initiated the fame of Solomon's kingdom among the nations, and of the God of Israel who was given worship in that temple. Knowledge of the God of Israel began to spread to the pagan nations of the world, even (and especially) when Israel went into captivity among those nations. The surge in the prophets' ministries during this time continued to bind Satan's deception of the nations who had been kept in ignorance of the God of Israel for the most part in the 3 prior millennial ages before then. This did not necessarily have to result in a saving knowledge of God, but it did remove their deceived ignorance of the God of Israel. God's "lights" of this millennium prevailed over Satan keeping the nations in total "darkness" of ignorance about Himself.

Day #5 - God creates life forms abundantly in the seas, and fowl to multiply in the earth. God chose Paul in the days of the early church to be a "chosen vessel" whom He would send to the Gentiles. Evangelism exploded into the Gentile nations of the world during this 5th millennium - the "seas" of the Gentile nations multiplying spiritual life abundantly, just as there was still a remnant of those in the "land" of Israel who were becoming believers as well.

Day #6 - God creates beasts on earth to reproduce after their kind, and man and woman with the command to "be fruitful and have dominion" over the created world and its creatures. There are scripture examples in the OT of God giving a greater-than-ordinary blessing on the 6th day, and the 6th year. During this 6th millennium of human history, mankind's ability to have dominion over this planet has increased steadily and exponentially. The "dark ages" phased out - Magna Carta - the printing press invented - the Reformation was launched - the Renaissance - the Industrial Revolution - the growth of America as a nation - the Great Awakening and other revivals - hospitals and universities and libraries - indoor plumbing ! - the automotive industry and interstate connections - aviation - shipping - computer development - medical improvements - advancements in agriculture and crop yields - the internet - AI - the list goes on and on. God has certainly given a double blessing to our 6th millennium as no other millennium has ever experienced before. But this super-abundance, (like Sodom's "fullness of bread and abundance of idleness"), has led to our abuse of these gifts in many respects. God has been long-suffering, but is now stirring Himself to bring about correcting our abuse of His manifold gifts. As always, He will exercise mercy along with justice and judgment.

Day #7 - God rested from all His works and blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it. We are about to enter the 7th millennium which will begin in 2033 (since the 4th millennium ended in AD 33 with Christ's resurrection day ascension to the Father). Typically in scripture, the number "7" is linked with a Sabbath period of some kind, where the land was supposed to go fallow in a Sabbath year, and people were to rest and recuperate in order to begin another week of activity. Cycles of rest are essential, and this frenzied, money-driven, indebted world needs to be brought down to a more basic mode of living when they can "be still and know that I am God" - when God can be exalted in the earth and among the heathen. This period of imposed rest on this planet - however God intends to accomplish that - will culminate with His bodily return and a last resurrection and judgment which finally purifies this planet of its remaining human evil for all time. In 3033. This will then begin the ages of eternity for us as resurrected believers.

You have done a much better job with being concise above, grafted branch. I marked where I agreed with you, as you can see.

Ok, you’ve given a lot to think about. I don’t want to side track this thread so I’ll digest what you said so far, thanks.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Try not to presume what my motives might be behind posting comments such as this. I myself do not presume that you are a proud, inflexible individual with an arrogant opinion of yourself, just because your views are not in sync with what I post. I honestly think everyone here is trying their best to make sense of the scriptures to the best of their ability, and earnestly want to share that with others. Different views are just an opportunity for us to exercise grace to each other in front of a watching world.

You're either arrogant or very naive. You understand that you have some unique beliefs all to yourself, right? Do you really believe that God reveals things only to you? Why would He do that? What would make you so special for Him to do that just for you?