What is the affect on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?

[St. SteVen]

Adam #2, came to restore to "ALL who believe", the spiritual union Relationship to God, that Adam lost because of sin.

I don't see that "ALL who believe" requirement in this scripture.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

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[Behold]

I don't see that requirement in this scripture.

Perhaps you can explain how a "christian" does not understand that you are supposed to Believe in Jesus, (by Faith)... so that God can give you Salvation. @St. SteVen ..


Jesus said..

"All that BELIEVE in Me, i give unto them, eternal life, and they shall never go to Hell (Perish)".

John Said..."For God so loved the world that He gave Jesus, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES In Him, shall not go to Hell, but has/have Everlasting life.

The Gospel is to "Believe on Jesus"... its "All who call on the Name of Jesus" by Faith.

to "obey the Gospel", is to BELIEVE it.

 

[St. SteVen]

Perhaps you can explain how a "christian" does not understand that you are supposed to Believe in Jesus, (by Faith)... so that God can give you Salvation. @St. SteVen ..

Are you claiming that I am not a Christian?

]

 

[Behold]

Are you claiming that I am not a Christian?

]

That's not allowed on the Forum.
We are not allowed to state or insinuate..... that "this member is not a Christian".

Now,
i asked you a general question, related to a "christian" understanding why they have to Give God their Faith in Christ, before God will cause them to become a born again Christian.

And the reason i asked is because you posted this..

St. SteVen said:
"I don't see that requirement in this scripture."

and your post was a response to me posting this to you..

Behold said:
"""""Adam #2, came to restore to "ALL who BELIEVE", the spiritual union Relationship to God, that Adam lost because of sin."""


So based on your response, i asked you this...

@Behold said..
""""Perhaps you can explain how a "christian" does not understand that you are supposed to Believe in Jesus, (by Faith)... so that God can give you Salvation.""""

You didnt answer that question yet.

 

[JBO]

That's an interesting view. Thanks.
Do you believe that Adam was the first human?

I believe that Adam was the first humanoid being given a human spirit by God. So yes, Adam was the first human.

 

[JBO]

That's not allowed on the Forum.
We are not allowed to state or insinuate..... that "this member is not a Christian".

Now,
i asked you a general question, related to a "christian" understanding why they have to Give God their Faith in Christ, before God will cause them to become a born again Christian.

And the reason i asked is because you posted this..

St. SteVen said:
"I don't see that requirement in this scripture."

and your post was a response to me posting this to you..

Behold said:
"""""Adam #2, came to restore to "ALL who BELIEVE", the spiritual union Relationship to God, that Adam lost because of sin."""


So based on your response, i asked you this...

@Behold said..
""""Perhaps you can explain how a "christian" does not understand that you are supposed to Believe in Jesus, (by Faith)... so that God can give you Salvation.""""

You didnt answer that question yet.

Romans 5:18-19 has nothing to do with anyone believing or not believing in God.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

It is apparent that in both verses, those affected by Adam's condemnation and disobedience are precisely the same ones that are affected by Jesus' righteousness and obedience.

 

[Behold]

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men,
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners

This is the fall of Adam, that is the fall of us all.

God said "dont eat that, do do that" and Adam chose to do it.

Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

This is Jesus choosing to obey God and go to the Cross to die for all our sin.
Notice it says, by His OBEDIENCE.. .and that means He Chose to do it....

Notice also, that the verse says....>"MANY" will be made righteous"< but not ALL.

Then if you read (Paul again) and (John)

2 Corin 5:19 and ... then John 3:17.... you read that God was in Christ, in the WORLD... not charging anyone with SIN.

So, that is the fact of the Completed Salvation, that is for everyone........as John 3:16 says that its for the "WORLD">

And the reason that Paul reduces what is for EVERYONE, to "many" is because that is explaining that even tho The Cross is God's Gift of Salvation to us ALL.........not ALL will have it.
Not all will give GOD their faith in Christ...but "whosoever will".......... God will redeem.

 

[JBO]

This is the fall of Adam, that is the fall of us all.

Nonsense! !

Notice also, that the verse says....>"MANY" will be made righteous"< but not ALL.

Well then, if that is the way you want to interpret it, the verse also says that "MANY" will be made sinners, but not all. So what does that mean. If not all, then who?

Then if you read (Paul again) and (John)

2 Corin 5:19 and ... then John 3:17.... you read that God was in Christ, in the WORLD... not charging anyone with SIN.

So, that is the fact of the Completed Salvation, that is for everyone........as John 3:16 says that its for the "WORLD">

And the reason that Paul reduces what is for EVERYONE, to "many" is because that is explaining that even tho The Cross is God's Gift of Salvation to us ALL.........not ALL will have it.
Not all will give GOD their faith in Christ...but "whosoever will".......... God will redeem.

Actually, Romans 5:12-19 is not talking about salvation at all. In the "as..so" construction of verses 18 and 19, the topic is restricted to considering the context of the "so" to be the same as the context of the "as". Since the effect of Adam's sin is addressed to the condition of man as he comes into the world, so also is the effect of Jesus' righteousness addressed to the condition of man as he comes into the world. Paul begins to address the conditions attributable to individual sins in verse 20 and carries that discussion on through chapter 6 and beyond.

The message of Romans 5:12-19 is, in a nutshell, without Jesus' obedience the effect of Adam's sin would be Original Sin for all of mankind. However, given the truth of Jesus' obedience, that effect of Adam's sin is negated, and the effect of Jesus' obedience is Original Grace for all of mankind. We are not born sinners; rather, we are born pure and free from sin. That is the reason that once we have sinned we are no longer pure and free from sin and need to be born again, i.e., we need to be REborn, we need to be REgenerated.

The doctrine of Original Sin is false.

 

[St. SteVen]

We are not born sinners; rather, we are born pure and free from sin.

I'm guessing you have no offspring? - LOL

]

 

[Behold]

Nonsense! !

Well then, if that is the way you want to interpret it, the verse also says that "MANY" will be made sinners, but not all. So what does that mean. If not all, then who?

Same idea., as "All have sinned" "there is none righteous, no not ONE".

This.. """Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:""""

Actually, Romans 5:12-19

But not as the offence, so also is the FREE GIFT.

This is the Gift of Salvation

Jesus is Salvation. .and He freely gave Himself by choice to the Cross, for the forgiveness of Sin, that will save many, but not all.

It saves one Believer at time........>"whosoever will BELIEVE"...

and the effect of Jesus' obedience is Original Grace for all of mankind.

The Cross of Christ is "original Grace".
Its given for everyone, but not everyone is going to believe.
Some prefer to believe in Science, or Witchcraft, or Calvin's Lies, or Mary Baker Eddy.... or..."break on through to the other side" said
J. Morrison and J. Hendrix.

The doctrine of Original Sin is false.

Original sin, started with Adam, originally.
It was passed unto all of humanity, as the "adamic nature.""

 

[JBO]

Original sin, started with Adam, originally.
It was passed unto all of humanity, as the "adamic nature.""

No, it was not passed unto all of humanity. That is called traducinism and it is wrong; it is heresy. Sin is the contamination of the spirit. Our spirits come from God (Zech 12:1; Eccl 12:7; Heb 12:9). He does not give us a spirit contaminated with Adam's sin. The tendency to sin is not a sin.

 

[JBO]

I'm guessing you have no offspring? - LOL

I have two children.

 

[St. SteVen]

I have two children.

Their behavior told you that they were born sinless?

How soon before they began sinning? (or that you finally noticed) ???

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[JBO]

Their behavior told you that they were born sinless?

How soon before they began sinning? (or that you finally noticed) ???

Nah, God's word told me that they were born sinless.

The one who believes that a person is a sinner from birth doesn't truly understand what sin is and therefore doesn't understand what it means to be "born again". Moreover to believe in original sin is to hold an appalling and heretical view of God.

They first sinned when they understood what sin was and chose to do so.

 

[Behold]

No, it was not passed unto all of humanity.

Paul teaches otherwise..

Romans 5:12-​

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin (Adam) entered into the world, and death by sin.....

 

[JBO]

Paul teaches otherwise..

Romans 5:12-​

​

​

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin (Adam) entered into the world, and death by sin.....

Romans 5:12 --- ...so death spread to all men because all sinned--

 

[Behold]

Romans 5:12 --- ...so death spread to all men because all sinned--

Who was the original Sinner, as a human?

"Adam".

And this created the (fallen) "Adamic nature"... that is literally this..

Jesus said..>"you are of YOUR FATHER.. THE DEVIL, and the LUSTS of YOUR FATHER you shall do".

"Lusts of your father", = SIn

This is why you sinned.

And the only solution, is to be born again by ANOTHER Father, and that is to become a "new Creation" in Christ.""

And water baptism can't do that for you... as the new birth is "by my SPIRIT sayeth the Lord".......not by water.

 

[JBO]

Who was the original Sinner, as a human?

"Adam".

True.

And this created the (fallen) "Adamic nature"... that is literally this..

False.

Jesus said..>"you are of YOUR FATHER.. THE DEVIL, and the LUSTS of YOUR FATHER you shall do".

"Lusts of your father", = SIn

This is why you sinned.

And the only solution, is to be born again by ANOTHER Father, and that is to become a "new Creation" in Christ.""

The Soul Who Sins Shall Die

Eze 18:1 The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 18:2 "What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
Eze 18:3 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
Eze 18:5 "If a man is righteous and does what is just and right--
Eze 18:6 if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of menstrual impurity,
Eze 18:7 does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment,
Eze 18:8 does not lend at interest or take any profit, withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man,
Eze 18:9 walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully--he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord GOD.
Eze 18:10 "If he fathers a son who is violent, a shedder of blood, who does any of these things
Eze 18:11 (though he himself did none of these things), who even eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor's wife,
Eze 18:12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination,
Eze 18:13 lends at interest, and takes profit; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself.
Eze 18:14 "Now suppose this man fathers a son who sees all the sins that his father has done; he sees, and does not do likewise:
Eze 18:15 he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife,
Eze 18:16 does not oppress anyone, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment,
Eze 18:17 withholds his hand from iniquity, takes no interest or profit, obeys my rules, and walks in my statutes; he shall not die for his father's iniquity; he shall surely live.
Eze 18:18 As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
Eze 18:19 "Yet you say, 'Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?' When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live.
Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Eze 18:21 "But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
Eze 18:24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.
Eze 18:25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life.
Eze 18:28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Eze 18:29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
Eze 18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."

 

[Behold]

The Soul Who Sins Shall Die

And Adam proved that was true , as "death came on us all" by one man's sin..... (Paul teaches) (NT)

Right now.. "the body is dead because of Sin", and that is "the fall of Adam" that is the fall of us all.

 

[St. SteVen]

Moreover to believe in original sin is to hold an appalling and heretical view of God.

How so?

They first sinned when they understood what sin was and chose to do so.

Actually, they were deceived. I don't think they had any intention to sin.
They clearly didn't know what sin was, nor did they really understand the consequences. IMHO

What were the consequences in your view?

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