@GodsGrace
James is talking about the evidence of justification.
Paul in Romans and Galatians is talking about the grounds of justification.
The same truth from different angles........
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James is talking about the evidence of justification.
Paul in Romans and Galatians is talking about the grounds of justification.
The same truth from different angles........
But if they mean saved people keep the commandments of God, and unsaved people don't, then that is not legalism.
NOBODY “keeps the Commandments Of God”....The very reason they were ever given was to show you that you can’t keep them and to show you that you need a Savior to pass out Grace and TONS of it! .Paul confessed that neither “ He” nor “his Fathers” could keep them , yet somehow you think that YOU can and you put that “ Unbearable Yoke” on those that never read the Bible and are susceptible to the “False and Perverted” gospel that you preach.....
The Commandments were intended to inspire people to “ close their mouths” as far as “ keeping” them was concerned.....”Close your mouth” is just a polite way to say “ SHUT UP!”.....All Those That are Spiritually Blind and can’t understand how Believers are “ DEAD to the Law” really need to “ SHUT UP”.....
Once the Law has done its Job in your life— leading you to Christ—- you can move on to using something for your Guidance in your life that is more Powerful than the Law could “ Hope” to be—— The Holy Spirit.....Those stuck on the “ Milk Bottle” in their “ Faith” never quite get it—- and like little babies they never learn to do as they are told , which is to SHUT UP!
NOBODY “keeps the Commandments Of God”....The very reason they were ever given was to show you that you can’t keep them and to show you that you need a Savior to pass out Grace and TONS of it! .Paul confessed that neither “ He” nor “his Fathers” could keep them , yet somehow you think that YOU can and you put that “ Unbearable Yoke” on those that never read the Bible and are susceptible to the “False and Perverted” gospel that you preach.....
The Commandments were intended to inspire people to “ close their mouths” as far as “ keeping” them was concerned.....”Close your mouth” is just a polite way to say “ SHUT UP!”.....All Those That are Spiritually Blind and can’t understand how Believers are “ DEAD to the Law” really need to “ SHUT UP”.....
Once the Law has done its Job in your life— leading you to Christ—- you can move on to using something for your Guidance in your life that is more Powerful than the Law could “ Hope” to be—— The Holy Spirit.....Those stuck on the “ Milk Bottle” in their “ Faith” never quite get it—- and like little babies they never learn to do as they are told , which is to SHUT UP!
Yes, If we Love God we Will “Keep His Commandments” .....it’s a statement of FACT—-NOT a threat!
That is why one can “ Love God and live as you please”
If one truly “ Loves God”, Their lives will be more “ pleasing” to God By accident than by the Confused man that is using Fear and will- Power to try to appease that “ mean old man in the sky” only to avoid Hell....
You will NEVER Love God until you abandon your “ Performance Based” Religion and learn to REST in Paul’s Gospel Of Grace....In the end , Christianity is all about Love—- that Love is the “ Engine” that drives Obedience .....it is God’s Desire to work IN and THROUGH you....anything else is pretty much “ Dead Works”......
For there are many people who know the gospel is true but who have yet to place their trust in it, receiving and retaining it in their hearts
Lol.....now THAT is funny! *YOU* yourself don't Trust Paul’s Gospel Of Grace Plus NOTHING that is found in 1 Cor15:1 -4 and YOU are going to lecture others! You don’t even remotely Believe the First part of it....you know, that first part where Jesus says ( Using Paul as His voice) that He “ DIED FOR YOUR SINS!
You have never been able to abandon your Error- Filled Methodist Doctrine that says that Jesus only died for your PAST sins.... and once you know THAT , then its up to you to “MAKE yourself “ Worthy” to inherit ETERNAL LIFE....the only way to Trust in or REST in the True Gospel is to know that if Jesus died for ALL of your sins , you could not go to Hell even if you tried!
Getting that Fear and Performance- Based false doctrine off of your shoulders is the Starting Point Of the Peace and Joy and Assurance That sets the stage for Loving God—- and once THAT happens, everything else will find a way of taking care of itself.....God has known this all along.....that is why “ Loving God” is the first and most important Commandment....He knew that if He could instill that Love in your heart, a life that was pleasing to Him would follow....I’ll say it again— “LOVE GOD and live as you please!” It’s the ultimate “ MEAT” for a Believer.....”Milk Drinkers” scratch their heads and think it’s Blasphemous .....they just don’t “ get it” ......
Strong Believers are told to put up with their “ weaker” Brothers.......that’s fine—- Assuming they are even “ Brothers” , we are NEVER told to let them Rule the Church......
Lol.....now THAT is funny! *YOU* yourself don't Trust Paul’s Gospel Of Grace Plus NOTHING that is found in 1 Cor15:1 -4 and YOU are going to lecture others! You don’t even remotely Believe the First part of it....you know, that first part where Jesus says ( Using Paul as His voice) that He “ DIED FOR YOUR SINS!
You have never been able to abandon your Error- Filled Methodist Doctrine that says that Jesus only died for your PAST sins.... and once you know THAT , then its up to you to “MAKE yourself “ Worthy” to inherit ETERNAL LIFE....the only way to Trust in or REST in the True Gospel is to know that if Jesus died for ALL of your sins , you could not go to Hell even if you tried!
Getting that Fear and Performance- Based false doctrine off of your shoulders is the Starting Point Of the Peace and Joy and Assurance That sets the stage for Loving God—- and once THAT happens, everything else will find a way of taking care of itself.....God has known this all along.....that is why “ Loving God” is the first and most important Commandment....He knew that if He could instill that Love in your heart, a life that was pleasing to Him would follow....I’ll say it again— “LOVE GOD and live as you please!” It’s the ultimate “ MEAT” for a Believer.....”Milk Drinkers” scratch their heads and think it’s Blasphemous .....they just don’t “ get it” ......
Strong Believers are told to put up with their “ weaker” Brothers.......that’s fine—- Assuming they are even “ Brothers” , we are NEVER told to let them Rule the Church......
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One is not Saved by “ Changing”—- Anybody can “ Turn over a New Leaf” ......One is Saved by *BELIEVING* ......it’s called “ Christianity 101” ......Why do you think all of this is referred to as “ REST?”.......Anybody knows that REST is what happens when you cease to “ WORK”.......” Salvation is GIVEN to those that DO NOT WORK for it!”.......
Your “ resting from sin” is just another subtle way to say, “ KEEP THE LAW”...... The Gospel is God’s “ Rescue Plan” for Sinners That KNOW they are Sinners and are going to DIE as Sinners .....They realize that Grace is God’s ONLY Elixir for Sin and you are going to need it Just as much on the Day That you die as you did the day you got Saved...” The Closer you get to God the farther away you see yourself from Him” .....That makes me “ close to God ”......I am WAY far away from His Goodness....How about you? I don’t care How “ changed” you are.... you are STILL a ” Wretch” —-just like me , and you need the Grace of God just as much as me....
I propose that am a lot more “like Jesus” than you give me credit for—- l enjoy the company Of Sinners, I really get off on Being kind to people, I am eager to forgive others and Religious people Hate me ....( that last one is the Clincher and the one that I am most happy about!) I never “ changed” myself or my behavior....I never made any attempt to “ REST FROM SIN “ by Trying and Failing to Keep the Law ......I just exercised Faith by Taking God at His Word .....That is how I got “ Transformed” .....
It was RESTING in God’s Promises , which is what True FAITH is—— NOT “ Resting from Sin”....... “The RIGHTEOUS by FAITH shall live!” .......I practice the Faith, which is something that I can actually DO, and for THAT , God gives me His Holy Spirit That gives me BOTH the Desire AND the Power to do Battle with Sin—— and it’s a Battle That endures until we exchange these weak, fallible and Stumbling Bodies Of Flesh for our Heavenly Garments....
The more one tries to “ Rest from Sin”( i.e. keep the Law) in a conscious effort to GET or STAY Saved or to Show and get the Approval Of your “ Church Buddies”, all you are going to do is stir up that Old Sin Nature .....you need to know that the Law was given so that “ Sin might INCREASE!” ....
Rest from your “ Work” Of Resting From Sin ( you think that doesn’t entail work !? ) and start Acting on the Promises Of God, at last perhaps coming to an “ End of YOURSELF” , THEN and ONLY THEN watch God REALLY Transform you into the “ Image Of His Son”......Stop “Trying” to be Saved by “conquering” Sin and start TRUSTING to be Saved.....
Be an Unbeliever for your Entire Life and yep—- you ain’t got a prayer.....
But if one is a Believer for a millisecond
he qualifies for the Promise that Jesus made—- “He that Believes In me ALREADY HAS Eternal Life and shall NEVER come under Condemnation! He has ALREADY PASSED from Death unto Life” .....how does the duration of time nullify That Promise ? Does it say “He that Believes for 90 days is Saved or any equivalent of that? Nope —- if one Believes , He is “ IN”......period. Something much more important than an individuals Salvation is on the line here—— GOD’s WORD....
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Let us say someone falls into legalism, have they not "left the faith"? I say this with with regard to your "it was me" statement above.
When I say , “ It was me”.....I am saying that I went from a Believer as a young man to an Atheust when I got to College age....I have never been a Legalistic for more than Five Minutes....it does not take a genius to see the Futility in that...
Let us say someone falls into legalism, have they not "left the faith"? I say this with with regard to your "it was me" statement above.
When I say , “ It was me”.....I am saying that I went from a Believer as a young man to an Atheust when I got to College age....I have never been a Legalistic for more than Five Minutes....it does not take a genius to see the Futility in that...
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I suppose the only thing that one can say for SURE about the Legalist is that he has “ Fallen From Grace” ( and we are SAVED by Grace, so that is a scary place to be!) and the Legalist is “ Severed From Christ”.. ( Another very scary place to find one’s self! ) Do either or both of these conditions equal a loss of Salvation ? Most Bible teachers that I respect and learn from say “ yes”, and others that I respect say “No”.......It seems that the Jury is still out on this one.....It’s a tad “murky”
One thing that is NOT “murky” are those that go beyond just Believing a Legalistic Doctrine and actually “Preach” it ....According to Gal 1:8 , they are “Accursed” —- damned by God....
Paul seemed to differentiate between the Two types , so there is a good chance that the Legalist Simply has a Joyless, Beggarly Walk Of Faith with no peace or assurance but does not suffer the Damnation Of The Full- Fledged Preacher Of The “False and Perverted” Gospel, which says that the Shed Blood Of Jesus, Though Essential For Salvation Just is not Adequate for Salvation and YOU gotta do this or you gotta do that to Get or Stay Saved ...The Legalist adds to a Gospel Of Pure Grace...Those That “start out so well” become “Troubled”, “Fallen” and “ Severed” by the False Gospels Of Adding to Grace.Everthing hinges on what these descriptive words mean...Why Gamble? Just hang on to 1Cor15:1-4 and it ALONE even if an Angel from Heaven appears to preach something different from what Paul Taught in those verses....
No, because in that very same passage he says if you deny him he will deny you.
You “deny Him” by rejecting the Gospel , because if you do NOT Reject that Gospel you are Saved —- Saved forever.
You “deny Him” by rejecting the Gospel , because if you do NOT Reject that Gospel you are Saved —- Saved forever.
I understand exactly what you are saying and I understand the difficulty of agreeing with my “take”....There was a time when I would have agreed with you—- it just makes sense! If BELIEF saves a person, any former Believer that falls back into Unbelief must be Lost!
I have changed my thinking because of a few verses that years ago, I was unfamiliar with.....I think you know the ones that I base my Doctrine on......I will repeat them only if you insist...
Huh? I don’t see where you are getting your conclusion...of course your sins must be covered...you get that Coverage when you Trust in the Gospel to Save you...”Jesus did all the work— He Died for ALL of our sins ( see Col.2:13) .....all that is left for any man or woman to do is to “cash- in” to what has already been accomplished FOR us....How does one “cash-in?” .....with Faith in Jesus Christ and Him Alone it Save us....
Where did I say that the Sin Of Unbelief will damn you? I have said repeatedly in here that a man that is in a state of Unbelief his ENTIRE LIFETIME is the very definition of being a Lost Man..... If a person has ever been a Believer for just one second and then falls back into Unbelief sometime in the future, I believe that he is still Saved....In that One Second he got qualified for the Promise that he had ALREADY OBTAINED Eternal Life and that he could NEVER come under Condemnation....Never means Never and He had already passed from Death to Life ....Grace sure is unfair sometimes, isn’t it ?
James says that faith without works is a dead faith.
This means that those that don't do works have a dead faith.
A dead faith means we are lost.
We can't change the meaning of words and/or verses.
There are two possible answers for this that theologians do agree on.
But I won't get into it.
I agree of course.
We can do all things through Jesus...
John 15:5
IF we ABIDE in Christ we will bear much fruit. Jesus seems to believe that bearing good fruit is important,
and this can only be done IF we ABIDE in Him.
The entire NT is speaking to believers....we should assume that believers will continue to be so...
but not all are going to and the NT also addresses these persons.
1 Timothy 4:1
If Paul speaks about falling away, it means that it's possible.
Again, I agree.
Jesus' SHEEP hear His voice.
If you're not a sheep, you don't hear His voice.
Only the sheep are saved.
If one strays, He goes looking for it.
I'm sure you know why....they can be killed or die in an accident.
The wanderer NEEDS to stay with the flock.
He needs Jesus to be close.
It has become a very convenient excuse these days to just state that if one falls away, he was never born again to begin with.
How does a person reply to that??
Paul was worried about not staying the course.
1 Corinthians 9:27
If PAUL was worried about becoming disqualified, I'd certainly be careful about my beliefs.
JESUS said to the Apostles...See That No One Leads You Astray.
Matthew 24:4
Jesus also says that Many Will Fall Away...
Matthew 24:10
Certainly if Jesus states this, it must be true.
BTW, of course I agree with your number 2. Those persons have nothing to do with this conversation.
Except that John 3:36 does state that we must believe and obey the Son.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
It doesn't. UNBELIEF nullifies the promise.
Look at your own computer inked quote: "He that believes..." The promise is for BELIEVING people, not people who are not believing. You have to LET the word of the gospel remain in you in order to remain in the promise of eternal life:
"24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life." 1 John 2:24-25
You say it does not have to remain in you.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I'm sure you've shared them, and I refuted them. The problem is people dismiss clear straightforward scripture and develop theologies from less clear scriptures. Scripturally, the only thing that is up for legitimate debate is whether or not the true believer can stop believing, not that they won't go to hell if they do, because the Bible is clear about that.
You'd be better off going to the original OSAS doctrine that said the true believer can not stop believing or they were never saved to begin with. I say the serious, committed believer will never stop believing. It really just boils down to how much the gospel means to a person. That's what determines if a person will continue to avail themselves of the power of God to keep believing and endure to the end and be saved in the end. Growth in Christ is about getting to that place of being the serious, committed believer that won't crumble under any circumstance - even the threat of death.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I don't think Farouk was saying otherwise.
Dead faith is the indicator that you have not been made righteous (justified) by faith. Dead faith is really NO faith. Works, on the other hand, show that you are righteous by faith. And so a person is justified that way, too - shown to be righteous by his works. The word 'justified' means, both, to be MADE righteous, and to be SHOWN to be righteous.
Marymog
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You make no sense Ferris. You are making an accusation about The Church based on your opinion. You have not backed up your opinion with any facts! Yet you say that you have no reason to conclude that you are not correct in your opinion. If you give some facts to back up your opinion I could possibly set you straight...but we have nothing to work with here except your opinion...which are not backed up with any facts.
Can you not see how silly your argument is? NM...I know you don't so, I digress!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Look, I know that you know that we all know what a Catholic Mass looks like with all it's liturgy and costumes and careful procedures. There's nothing to prove. We all know that your denomination and 99.99% of all the other denominations in the church don't conduct their meetings in accordance with 1 Corinthians 14:26-31. Don't play games!
And as far as 1 Corinthians 5, you yourself are the one who pooh-poohed that. You've been trying so hard to discredit all the churches that don't things 'your' way. That is so typical of cold, dead religion. I'm quite sick of it. Very, very few people who call themselves 'Christian' know what really counts and matters in the Christian faith. And it ain't your cold, dead, legalistically accurate church services. That's a joke.
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