Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Sheep will not be slaughtered. the sheppard leaves the whole flock and his sheep hear his voice and follow.
Why are you again so angry? God is God, hare dare we question his plan or authority.
What does the hell doctrine say about the character of God?
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Why are you again so angry? God is God, hare dare we question his plan or authority.
Evil is a force that originated by itself like certain monstrous diseases in the most wholesome body. Lucifer was an angel, the most beautiful of all the angels, a perfect spirit, inferior only to God, and yet in his bright essence a vapour of pride arose and he did not scatter it. On the contrary, he condensed it by brooding over it. And Evil was born of this incubation. It existed before man. God had hurled him out of Paradise, the cursed incubator of Evil, who had desecrated Paradise. But he is the eternal incubator of Evil and as he can no longer soil Paradise, he has soiled the earth.
Jesus is the Compendium of the love of the Three. Jesus is the Compendium of what the Most Holy Trinity and Unity of God is. He is the Perfection of the Three summarized in One alone. He is infinite, multiform Perfection summarized in Jesus. An abyss of Perfection before whom the heavenly forces and the blessed multitudes of Paradise prostrate themselves in adoration. An abyss of Love that could and can be comprehended and accepted only by those who possess love.
Consequently, we can here explain how the archangel who was a benign, holy spirit—but not holy to the point of entirely love—was able to become the Spirit of Evil. It is the measurement of love, which one possesses in oneself, that provides the measure of one's perfection and refractoriness to all corruption. When love is complete, nothing more can come in to corrupt. The molecule which does not love is an easy breach for the infiltration of the first elements which are not love. And they force, distend, invade, and submerge the good elements, to the point of killing them. Lucifer had an incomplete measure of love. Self-satisfaction occupied a space in him, a space in which there could be no love. And, it was the breach through which his ruinous depravation came in. Because of it, he could not comprehend and accept Christ-Love, the Compendium of the infinite, single, Triune Love. And the fact that nowadays the heresy denying the Divine Humanity of the Second Person and making Him a simple man Who is good and wise is vaster may be readily explained with this key: lack of love in the human heart, incapacity for love, poverty in the possession of love.
If you re-read, meditate, and concentrate on the phrase "Lucifer, not holy to the point of being entirely love," you may be unable to grasp how a spirit like the spirit that is an angel could have committed faults. You may want an explanation as to how spiritual beings—created by the perfect will of God, in a creation lacking the element of "Evil," which had still not taken shape—contemplating Eternal Perfection, and that alone, had been able to sin. How could this be so?
Angels are superior to men. I say "men" to refer to all the beings designated in this way, composed of matter and spirit. Angels are, then, superior, entirely spirit. But remember that when Grace lives in man and the Blood of the Mystical Body, whose Head is Christ, circulates, while the seven Sacraments confirm him from birth to death, in every state and every stage of life, they then see the Lord in us, "living temples of the Lord," and worship Him in us, and we are then superior to them—we are "other Christs"—and have what is called the "Bread of angels"; but Bread is for men alone. A mystical, insatiable hunger for the Eucharist which is in us and makes them cling to us, when we feed on It, to perceive the divine fragrance of this perfect Food!
But, to go back to the initial point, I tell you that in the angels, different from us in nature and perfection, there is free will, as in us. God has created nothing as a slave. At the origin there was only Order in the creation. But Order does not exclude freedom. Rather, in Order there is perfect freedom. Nor is there in Order fear—as a constraint—of an invasion, an intrusion, or the anarchy of other wills which may produce secret pacts and ruins penetrating into the orbit and trajectory of other beings or created things. The Whole Universe was like that before Lucifer abused his freedom and by his own will introduced the disorder of passions into himself to create disorder in the Universe. If he had been entirely love, he would have no room in himself for anything that was not love. He instead had room for pride, which might be termed "the disorder of the intellect."
Could God have impeded this event? He could have. But why violate the free will of the very handsome, intelligent archangel? Wouldn't He, the Most Just, then have introduced disorder into His orderly Thought by no longer willing what He had previously willed—that is, the archangel's freedom? God did not oppress the disturbed spirit by violently making it impossible for him to sin. His not sinning would then have lacked any merit. For us, too, it was necessary "to be able to will the Good" in order to go on deserving to enjoy the vision of God, infinite Blessedness!
God, since He had wanted the sublime archangel to be at His side in the first operations of creation and wanted him to be aware of the future of the creation of love, so He wanted him to be aware of the adorable and painful necessity which his sin would impose upon God: the Incarnation and Death of a God to counterbalance the ruin of Sin which would be created if Lucifer did not overcome pride in himself. Love could only speak this language. The first annihilation of God is in this act of wanting to induce the proud one gently—almost begging him, with the vision of what his pride would impose upon God—not to sin so as to lead others to sin.
It was an act of love. Lucifer, already turned into a devil, took it to be fear, weakness, and offense, a declaration of war; and he waged war against the Perfect One by saying, "You are? I, too, am. You made what you made through me. There is no God. And if there is a God, I am. I worship myself. I hate you. I refuse to recognize one who is unable to overcome me as my Lord. You should not have created me so perfect if you did not want rivals. Now I am and I am against you. Defeat me, if you can. But I do not fear You. I, too, will create, and because of me Your Creation will tremble, for I will shake it like a bit of cloud seized by the winds because I hate You and want to destroy what is Yours to create what will be mine over the ruins. I do not know or recognize any other power except myself."
Truly, in the Creation, in the whole Creation, down to the very depths, there was then a horrendous convulsion out of dread at the sacrilegious words. A convulsion the likes of which will not be seen at the end of Creation. And from it there arose Hell, the realm of Hatred.
Do you understand how Evil arose? From free will—respected as such by God—of one who was not "entirely love." And believe that upon every sin committed since then there stands this judgement: "Here love does not exist entirely." Complete love forbids sinning. And without effort. Whoever loves does not labor to reach justice! Love takes him high above all mire and danger and purifies him minute by minute of the barely perceptible imperfections which are still present in the final degree of consummate holiness, in that state wherein the spirit is so advanced that it is truly a king, already united by spiritual marriage to its Lord; God gives and reveals Himself to such a point to His blessed son, who enjoys only a single degree less than what the life of the blessed in Heaven is.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Yes, our minds can't wrap themselves around God oftentimes. He is truly beyond our comprehension as the just Creator-Judge.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
The assumption mainstream theology has built on is that God requires paying before he will forgive....and payment means a bloody sacrifice.
What has happened is the pagan view of God's character has been superimposed onto the Creator God.
Reminds me of Elijah and the prophets of Baal in 1 Kings chapter 18.
The prophets of Baal needed no instruction. That's the way the pagans did it.
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Bob
Well-Known Member
Thank you all for your posts.
So: we should not question God if He decides eternal torture is a just punishment?
This sounds like God in Job, who decides it is Ok to test Job’s faith, but when Job asks, Why, He resorts to Who are you to question me. This is God resembling a Mafia godfather.
Abraham and Moses both questioned the punishment God was going to inflict in particular instances. Surely it is not out of character for us to do so also.
The U.S. Constitution forbids Cruel and Unusual punishments. Even some of the worst criminals spend the rest of their lives fed, sheltered, clothed, cared for. Are we thinking that is reasonable because God will punish them properly?
Instead: A long-long-long punishment for those that intentionally break Commandments? Totally unbiblical?
Blessings.
So: we should not question God if He decides eternal torture is a just punishment?
This sounds like God in Job, who decides it is Ok to test Job’s faith, but when Job asks, Why, He resorts to Who are you to question me. This is God resembling a Mafia godfather.
Abraham and Moses both questioned the punishment God was going to inflict in particular instances. Surely it is not out of character for us to do so also.
The U.S. Constitution forbids Cruel and Unusual punishments. Even some of the worst criminals spend the rest of their lives fed, sheltered, clothed, cared for. Are we thinking that is reasonable because God will punish them properly?
Instead: A long-long-long punishment for those that intentionally break Commandments? Totally unbiblical?
Blessings.
The topic question is:
What does the hell doctrine say about the character of God?
I think the hell doctrine says horrible things about God.This is hard to process, because we grew up in a church that taught the hell doctrine.
From the youngest age I understood the hell doctrine and didn't question it.
But now that I am older and can evaluate my religious upbringing, I have questions.
Since it was a common teaching, we all took the hell doctrine to be true.
Further analysis made me wonder about it. God created all things.
So hell, if it was real, was part of his creation. Oh boy... ????
What sort of God would create such a thing? Eternal torment with no hope of escape?
An eternal punishment for a finite crime? Something is very wrong here.
And what about those who had never heard? We were told that those who rejected Christ would suffer eternally.
But what about those who had NEVER heard? (countless billions)
The whole thing begins to fall apart when you examine it.
[
No, it is Biblical. Ez 18 teaches us that there are two choices. While we are still able to draw breath, we can choose to keep God's statutes and Laws and worship Him and be in line for Eternal Life at the time of the final judgement, or we can reject God and His Statutes and laws and be a candidate for the Second death at the time of the final judgement. Being a candidate for the second death, gives us the opportunity to repent and return such that we lose our candidacy for the second death and instead receive Eternal Life.
Sadly, this get out of jail card can only be played while we are still drawing breath.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
But God already forgave even before we pray.
And the bloody sacrifice of the cross is the means of that forgiveness
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
All manner of sin will be forgiven men.. its a done deal
But unbelief or rejecting Gods love provision, will not be forgiven.
How can we say God is unjust when he paid the penalty for those who will have to send to hell for eternity?
He gave them a way out. they turned him down.
we need to blame the sinner. Not the God who came to save that sinner.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
actually it says no such thing .
IT shows us that GOD loves us and warns us and points us to HE WHO CAN SAVE US from that which WE ALL HAVE EARNED .
Rather than trying to omit the severity of GOD , I have a wonderful idea .
WHY NOT PREACH THE NAME OF JESUS THE CHRIST to these poor lost souls so as they too will not
get what they deserved but rather ETERNAL LIFE .
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Well, I don't assume that God requires any actions before he forgives. Jesus already made the bloody sacrifice for all believers. Yes, we have to always be vigilant against any and all influences from the culture around us. That's where prayer and reading the Bible come in.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well as Jesus said that the lake of fire was created for the devil and his rebelliouos angels. Mankind is an interloper! But all are born lost due to having a sin nature.
It is Scripture so if you do not buy it, you have a problem with the Author (God HImself) and not anyone on earth.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Mankind is not an interloper in the lake; he is a willing follower of his slave master, Satan. The picture of a lake of fire is God's just justice against Satan and all who are his slaves. Hell is also pictured as outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Read Matthew's gospel and Jesus' description.)
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Seven examples are in John's gospel, all of the "I AM" claims of Jesus to declare himself to be the same God who appeared to Moses in the burning bush. He says that he is the door to the sheepfold, the bread of life, the good Shepherd (Psalm 23), the resurrection and the life, the light of the world, and other figurative metaphors or comparisons to claim that he is God with the Father and the Holy Spirit as the one Creator-Rescuer God.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
No, it isn't. It's true that Jesus isn't literally the light, door, resurrection, Shepherd, and the other comparisons. He is the Cause of believers' salvation by being our God along with the Father as the Source and the Holy Spirit as the Direct Doer of his rescue. The JWs don't believe that Jesus is fully God the way he claims or that the Holy Spirit is a Person of God. They have let their rationalism determine their beliefs, which are false.
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