What does it mean to be born again?

[Lizbeth]

False religions dont like being exposed . they had rather just follow the all inclusive lets get along lie .
Let us remember that . Lambs LOVE the peoples so lambs actually do correct error
and always point to CHRIST ALONE , that one must BELIEVE IN HIM to be saved . False religoins
embrace the lie . Lambs embrace the BIBLICAL TRUTH . PS speaking of idols , ROME needs to clean her idols and worship of said Idols OUT of the place . And more so they also need to quit trying to REIGN over all the religoins and rather PREACH JESUS
and not this lie that all religions are coming to GOD . What a crock of dung that is .
BELIEVE IN CHRIST JESUS . HE ALONE is the ONLY and i do mean ONLY way unto THE FATHER . all else is winds of vainity sold
under what most call love but in truth its hate .

Amen. You know brother, the Lord warned me about Pope Francis shortly after he became Pope. And there was a time when I didn't really know what to make of the Catholic church, whether it can be considered a Christian denomination or not. The Lord was faithful to show me clear as crystal that the ruling spirit of the Catholic church IS NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT. Question answered.

And it can't be reformed, only judged in the end. Her wound is incurable. Rather God commands any who know Him to "come out of her" lest they receive of her plagues.

 

[APAK]

@Episkopos well I comment here up to your 12-12 1/2 minute point (halfway point) in your presentation...I had to continue a bit more I guess..

----------------------------------------------
Back to the 40 days of Christ's testing...of your video

So you are now using a false analogy IMO and wrong logic when you say the Spirit of God given to Christ is inferred as exactly the same thing/quantity as to what is given to a believer and their walk should be similar with a longer and different timeline to complete.

Christ had/has today the entire Father, his entire Spirit indwelt in him as he walked and breathed upon the earth. He was possessed by his Father, as we are not fully possessed that way with the Father when we are reborn into the Kingdom of God. We can be filled in the Spirit of God as he portions it out in the right mixture and type for sure, and not all in these lives in this flesh.

We have a critical portion of the Spirit of God only that is dedicated to growing us in truth and into Christ, into his same spirit. It is a mystery what we will be in immortality, and maybe given the entire Spirit God at that time, as Christ. And yes, we can say everything in this regard is of the grace of God of course.

You then say we are responsible to fill our 'calling'.....and you cite Luke 12:48 as your support for a personal calling, given selective gifts or talents to use. And then you leave that thought hanging...

I believe you mean a first level of a walk as you use the analogy of the OT - from bondage to freedom in the wilderness as cited from Exodus.

Then you say we must walk-out of sin. They you leave that thought hanging also...

Then suddenly you say sanctification is not a process but something you must cry out to God for....deducing that if you don't cry out (the right way) you don't get sanctification and you are useless to God and maybe not saved or slated for bodily rebirth into the Kingdom??

Scripture says it is a call given by God once we are saved not that we need to call out to him for it.

1 Thessalonians 4:7
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
,For God has not called us to uncleanliness but to sanctification. (Darby)

And then you say, when we cry out to him for sanctification and gives us it (somehow) he bestows on us a higher spiritual walk, as the only way to be a saint. By deduction then those without sanctification are walking an unholy (and sinful?) walk that is like dirty rags to God. They are not truly saved or reborn I guess?

No, when we are reborn and the Spirit inhabits our heart in spirit we are given sanctification to mature into, based on the truth and Christ.
You do not believe we are sanctified as rebirth I see. This is a non-starter for me and I can disucss this with scripture all day long if you wish....

Sanctification (positional because of Christ) is the sign of true Salvation.

It is given as a byproduct of real, living, heartfelt, spiritual faith in Christ and the ramifications of his Cross - freedom from sinfulness and the power of the flesh to control sin => justification from Christ and his works => Spirit of God gives truth and focus on growth into the same spirit as the Son => positional sanctification walk of life in righteousness and then practical experienced and progressive sanctification - becoming more Christlike => salvation

And then you grossly reinterpret the verses of Nicodemus and Yahshua concerning rebirth and seeing and and entering into the Kingdom. You say we are not in the Kingdom of God today as being saved. I say we are in the Kingdom today as Christ would say it is within me in spirit because I have the Spirit of God the core of the Kingdom.

And the Greek word here translated for 'see' means really a type of condition in spirit and mind of knowing, experiencing, sensing not actually seeing a physical or other dimensional realm of living.

You then presume there are many reborn people would have lost their way momentarily or presume or take their salvation for granted. That's your opinion and I believe true believers do not fall into those two classes. Maybe you should re-examine if you truly possess the new man?!
A third class that I belong to does not take face value their salvation, walk and faith. I pray and enjoy being in the spirit as I am most of the time, especially as I grow older in this world. I have never truly and completely lost hope in spiritual Godly purpose, thus far. I guess I'm unique..NOT!

I believe you are dead wrong concerning sanctification and righteousness regarding salvation and you apply a heavy dose of needless pessimism of fellow believers even though there most probably many Pharisee believers amongst us. And yes there are many denominationalists who are not living sanctifying life styles as you suggest, And then in the end, are they (still) saved or not?

I'm starting to conclude already, eventhough I have not assessed the second half of your presentation yet, that you show much pessimism and doubt in fellow believers because you want to maximize and contrast how different and wrong they surely are in their spiritual walk if they do not subscribe to your view of a desert, wilderness narrow and very difficult rebirth higher sanctifying walk experience that you have to work to please God. And only a few find it as you suggest....

 

[amigo de christo]

Better rightly divide the word sister. It is also written that friendship with the world is enmity with God.

All she wants to do is mock folks . This here is your so called most loving generation .
They love and accept everyones path . BUT they mock and hate the truth .
Folk have no idea what has occurred .
The lets open the BOX and TAKE GOD out of the box generation . the so called most open minded ,
has fast become the most close minded to TRUTH .
The leaders got em from within . SEE when they came along with this TAKING GOD out of the box ordeal
that so many bought into . What they really did and meant was , LETS TAKE GOD out OF THE BIBLE
and reshape our own image of HIM . what we like we keep what we dont we omit . Exactly .

 

[Lizbeth]

Speaking in king jamesese again.
Hold not thy breath waiting for me to take thee seriously.

View attachment 29993

All she wants to do is mock folks . This here is your so called most loving generation .
They love and accept everyones path . BUT they mock and hate the truth .
Folk have no idea what has occurred .
The lets open the BOX and TAKE GOD out of the box generation . the so called most open minded ,
has fast become the most close minded to TRUTH .
The leaders got em from within . SEE when they came along with this TAKING GOD out of the box ordeal
that so many bought into . What they really did and meant was , LETS TAKE GOD out OF THE BIBLE
and reshape our own image of HIM . what we like we keep what we dont we omit . Exactly .

Yep....but no flesh to see here folks. Not. Somebody needs to be given a bottle and tucked into bed.

Depends on what one means by taking God out of the box I think, but yes I know what you mean. Sadly there are those here who think the gospel is the strong delusion. Truth is being turned upside down.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

All she wants to do is mock folks . This here is your so called most loving generation .
They love and accept everyones path . BUT they mock and hate the truth .
Folk have no idea what has occurred .
The lets open the BOX and TAKE GOD out of the box generation . the so called most open minded ,
has fast become the most close minded to TRUTH .
The leaders got em from within . SEE when they came along with this TAKING GOD out of the box ordeal
that so many bought into . What they really did and meant was , LETS TAKE GOD out OF THE BIBLE
and reshape our own image of HIM . what we like we keep what we dont we omit . Exactly .

 

[amigo de christo]

You do realize oprah wimphrey is false and no christain right .
Sure they are folks who can quoate the bible and not understand it .
But never follow Oprah . as for the kid he needs to tone down that voice just a wee bit .

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yep....but no flesh to see here folks. Not. Somebody needs to be given a bottle and tucked into bed.

Depends on what one means by taking God out of the box I think, but yes I know what you mean. Sadly there are those here who think the gospel is the strong delusion. Truth is being turned upside down.

 

[amigo de christo]

no kid should preach anyway . Most folks , like the all inclusive constantly quoate wee bits of the bible
and yet twist it to their agenda and have no real understanding of what it means .

 

[Lizbeth]

All you're accomplishing is making a spectacle of yourself sister.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

All you're accomplishing is making a spectacle of yourself sister.

Can’t help it. She reminded me of you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

no kid should preach anyway . Most folks , like the all inclusive constantly quoate wee bits of the bible
and yet twist it to their agenda and have no real understanding of what it means .

Can’t help it. He reminded me of you.

 

[amigo de christo]

All you're accomplishing is making a spectacle of yourself sister.

The fruits of what is in a persons heart will always be made known . its quite obvious .
One thing about the co exist ecumincal we are one generation
is ye shall know them by their defense of sinful behavoir , and their attacks against those who simply bring doctrinal truth .
You wont ever see them rebuking folks for their paths , lifestyle choices , mindsets , UNLESS those mindsets
expose the darkness . NOW THOSE they will go after like a pit bull on a porkchop .
THEY always preach LOVE , LIVE and let live , JUDGE NOT , YET if one brings truth that exposes the darkness
THEY aint so tolerant anymore . We must march on in the LORD my dear sister .
This generation has fast fallen in love with relative truth syndrome and other such things
and have created a god that serves their own desires . Not rather that we ought to serve the GOD who created .
And to honor HIM in all we do and say . Rather for them its the god that serves their own desires .
This is truly a sad thing to watch . But all we can do is expose the darkness by the LIGHT of CHRIST and stay well dug
in the scriptures too and be in prayer and be stirred up to do the things That PLEASE GOD
and not mans ways .

 

[marks]

The fruits of what is in a persons heart will always be made known .

We always reveal ourselves in our words.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The fruits of what is in a persons heart will always be made known . its quite obvious .
One thing about the co exist ecumincal we are one generation
is ye shall know them by their defense of sinful behavoir , and their attacks against those who simply bring doctrinal truth .
You wont ever see them rebuking folks for their paths , lifestyle choices , mindsets , UNLESS those mindsets
expose the darkness . NOW THOSE they will go after like a pit bull on a porkchop .
THEY always preach LOVE , LIVE and let live , JUDGE NOT , YET if one brings truth that exposes the darkness
THEY aint so tolerant anymore . We must march on in the LORD my dear sister .
This generation has fast fallen in love with relative truth syndrome and other such things
and have created a god that serves their own desires . Not rather that we ought to serve the GOD who created .
And to honor HIM in all we do and say . Rather for them its the god that serves their own desires .
This is truly a sad thing to watch . But all we can do is expose the darkness by the LIGHT of CHRIST and stay well dug
in the scriptures too and be in prayer and be stirred up to do the things That PLEASE GOD
and not mans ways .

Oh!! I’m a pit bull with a pork chop! Hahaha! And you threw in a tiny bit of KingJamesese for period authenticity.

 

[amigo de christo]

We always reveal ourselves in our words.

Much love!

Jesus also said for by thy words you shall be justified and by your words you will be condemned .
Our words ought to aline with and agree with HIS words and the lovely pure truth in scriptural doctines given us in that bible .
Too many judge men for true words and teach false words . Not looking good at all .
Too many support the actions and judgments of men gone wrong and attack the actions words and judgments
of those speaking truth which exposes darkness .
Many can and do often claim we are IN THE LIGHT and OF THE LIGHT .
but if the light that is in them supports darkness , THEN ITS DARKNESS not light
and if the light that is in them is darkness then great is that darkness .
CHOOSE Ye this day whom ye shall love honor and obey , but as for the lambs THEY choose GOD and HIS CHRIST
for they have the SPIRIT and the LOVE that comes FROM GOD is upon their hearts .
By the SPIRIT they do the things pleasing to GOD , they do that which is acceptable to GOD .
IF any fruits contradict GOD , well then they are fruits of darkness , of the flesh and we sure dont wanna reap to that monster .
Let the KING be praised and in all that do and all that we say may it HONOR HE who has saved us . PRAISE BE TO HIS NAME .

 

[amigo de christo]

Oh!! I’m a pit bull with a pork chop! Hahaha! And you threw in a tiny bit of KingJamesese for period authenticity.

The all inclusive generation is . I never made mention of anyone . But what i said it is true .
Now if your conscious was pricked , repent about it . GOD is merciful and desires the death of none .
I will pray for you as well . But i am telling you that the path you are on is very dangerous . Thus since i do desire good for you
i gotta warn you about it .

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Jesus also said for by thy words you shall be justified and by your words you will be condemned .
Our words ought to aline with and agree with HIS words and the lovely pure truth in scriptural doctines given us in that bible .
Too many judge men for true words and teach false words . Not looking good at all .
Too many support the actions and judgments of men gone wrong and attack the actions words and judgments
of those speaking truth which exposes darkness .
Many can and do often claim we are IN THE LIGHT and OF THE LIGHT .
but if the light that is in them supports darkness , THEN ITS DARKNESS not light
and if the light that is in them is darkness then great is that darkness .
CHOOSE Ye this day whom ye shall love honor and obey , but as for the lambs THEY choose GOD and HIS CHRIST
for they have the SPIRIT and the LOVE that comes FROM GOD is upon their hearts .
By the SPIRIT they do the things pleasing to GOD , they do that which is acceptable to GOD .
IF any fruits contradict GOD , well then they are fruits of darkness , of the flesh and we sure dont wanna reap to that monster .
Let the KING be praised and in all that do and all that we say may it HONOR HE who has saved us . PRAISE BE TO HIS NAME .

Oh you poor thing. You just came in to innocently attack Epi and carry on your longstanding grudge and drive by habit-and it’s so mean and attacking for anyone to call out the truth and make you look like a silly child. Isn’t that the way it always works you poor thing? You are going along innocently, minding your own business, when out of nowhere and for no reason a vicious pit bull who was hiding and waiting for you to pass by just pounces on you and grabs you like you’re a pork chop and starts shaking you and forcing you to watch silly animal videos when you werent doing anything but innocently stalking a man!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The all inclusive generation is . I never made mention of anyone . But what i said it is true .
Now if your conscious was pricked , repent about it . GOD is merciful and desires the death of none .
I will pray for you as well . But i am telling you that the path you are on is very dangerous . Thus since i do desire good for you
i gotta warn you about it .

Oooooh. Scary!

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos

Epi: regarding your video...the first 7 or so minutes for now...

Hey Apak. I wasn't going to sully my soul with this thread anymore...now infested with crows...until I noticed your thoughtful post. This is the kind of dialogue I was open to have by going to the trouble of making a video and a thread. :)

I can see you have a particular ending and conclusion in mind and you provide information, language, logic to mold and guide it to that end or conclusion. I see missing gaps in logic, glaring mistakes, and and a few startling assumptions.

You begin with establishing some background in scripture of the people of the 'promise,' of being a type of Isaac and Sarah types born of Zion, born again into the New Jerusalem or the Kingdom of God. This is some good bible study you present connecting Psalms 87 with Isa 66:8 and Gal 4:6...

Then around 6:30 minutes/secs in, things go sideways for me at least.

OK. Glad to you see the connection. It's normal that we don't come to the same conclusions...at least not initially.

You cite 2 Corinth 1:22

(2Co 1:22) who also sealed us, and gave us the down payment of the Spirit in our hearts.(WEB)
(2Co 1:22) Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.(KJV)
(2Co 1:22) and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.(ESV)

The word you hone in on is the English word earnest, pledge, down-payment, holding until full payment is paid...from the Greek transliterated word 'arrabon' (you write aravon) dedicated for a future event with full payment or recovery.

arrabón: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)
Original Word: ἀρραβών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: arrabón
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-hrab-ohn')
Definition: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)
Usage: an earnest, earnest-money, a large part of the payment, given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards.

2 Corinthians 1:22 N-AMS
GRK: δοὺς τὸν ἀρραβῶνα τοῦ πνεύματος
NAS: in our hearts as a pledge.
KJV: and given the earnest of the Spirit in
INT: having given the pledge of the Spirit
2 Corinthians 5:5 N-AMS
GRK: ἡμῖν τὸν ἀρραβῶνα τοῦ πνεύματος
NAS: who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
KJV: unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
INT: to us the pledge of the Spirit

Ephesians 1:14 N-NMS
GRK: ὅ ἐστιν ἀρραβὼν τῆς κληρονομίας
NAS: who is given as a pledge of our inheritance,
KJV: is the earnest of our
INT: who is [the] guarantee of the inheritance

You now make the meaning of down-payment/pledge etc to mean a sample of grace or small amount of grace, I guess to get us started with something....our walk?

Yes. It is equivalent to the Israelites being led into the desert...after being saved from Egypt (the world) ....and even Jesus being so led after He was baptized.

No, the intent of the down-payment or mark/stamp or pledge is God setting us aside in holiness (sanctification) and in righteousness by providing his Spirit of necessity as the legal owner of someone and in this case for later use or later full possession by him through his Spirit for future transformation and realization that his grace he gave us to walk with Christ today shall bring in immortality in the Kingdom of his Father.

An aravon was a CONDITIONAL down-payment that was made to secure something from the other person. If the conditions were not met...then the payment was forfeit. The New Covenant is a two way deal. If we fail our part...we are disqualified from the full payment. The Jews under the Old Covenant broke that covenant. Unless we bear the right kind of fruit...we too will be cut off.

I mean all that God does in this regard is all his umbrella of all grace given to us for salvation and the indwelling of the Spirit is one first critical step of this grace for our complete salvation in Zion. The Spirit is not a sample of grace, and then the experience of a 'higher' walk is the rest of the pledge or the fulfillment of the rest or latter part of the grace given.

It is a sample as it does not give us the full power over sin. Those who are IN Christ do not sin. They walk in Zion. A resurrection life COVERING a natural life. Like a second storey on a ground floor. Even if a person gets a full measure of grace at regeneration (which I did), the kind of maturity that is required to keep that level of purity is lacking.

This idea of mixing and breaking down grace as a component and this case the Spirit as a mark or pledge can be dangerous in my books. Like I said before in a few words earlier, you have a theory and conclusion to present and persuade folks to believe in...and chopping grace into parts is very appropriate and convenient for your salvation rebirth theory.

Being saved is no guarantee of a good outcome. Being cast into outer darkness is the penalty of disobedience for the saved. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So you need to look a lot more carefully at the possibilities that make up the eternal destinies of believers.

And then you get onto the idea that the root Greek word for the English translated word deposit or down-payment of the Greek transliterated word 'arrabon' is arava /arabah for desert. And this is misleading and incorrect.

The root word is arawbone, as in a pawn or a small thing of value for security and safekeeping. It is of the Hebrew origin.

erabon: a pledge
Original Word: עֲרָבוֹן
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: erabon
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-aw-bone')
Definition: a pledge

and then this erabon further is rooted in the Hebrew word 'arab'

arab: to take on pledge, give in pledge, exchange
Original Word: עָרַב
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: arab
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-rab')
Definition: to take on pledge, give in pledge, exchange

Now arabah is what you used and it means desert indeed, although it never is related to meaning pledge or down-payment.

arabah: a steppe or desert plain, also a desert valley running S. from the Sea of Galilee
Original Word: עֲרָבָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: arabah
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-aw-baw')
Definition: a steppe or desert plain, also a desert valley running S. from the Sea of Galilee

And then once you make that claim that pledge is derived for the idea of a 'desert,' you immediately state we are called to pursue a desert walk in the Spirit and include it as a straight and narrow desert walk to bolster your credibility as you take parts of other scripture into account to conjure up fear, and the real concern and fear of not finding the Cross and finding the right narrow gate would be in vain if you did not do it your way as you suggest I imagine..., as Christ accomplished it all in 40 days and for us may take a life-time.

Your discussion and its reliability now suddenly become suspect to err...many errs that will lead an audience astray...for me at least and IMO

I can go on if you wish.....with the rest of your video presentation feedback...and how you bring it all to a conclusion as you planned.

Sure. We are not better than the Israelites in the wilderness. In fact, those who don't understand that the bible is there for our instruction are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. A wise person will submit himself to be taught by the godly counsel we read...written for us in order to learn and bear fruit.

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos well I comment here up to your 12-12 1/2 minute point (halfway point) in your presentation...I had to continue a bit more I guess..

----------------------------------------------
Back to the 40 days of Christ's testing...of your video

So you are now using a false analogy IMO and wrong logic when you say the Spirit of God given to Christ is inferred as exactly the same thing/quantity as to what is given to a believer and their walk should be similar with a longer and different timeline to complete.

Christ had/has today the entire Father, his entire Spirit indwelt in him as he walked and breathed upon the earth. He was possessed by his Father, as we are not fully possessed that way with the Father when we are reborn into the Kingdom of God. We can be filled in the Spirit of God as he portions it out in the right mixture and type for sure, and not all in these lives in this flesh.

I think you realize that Jesus was also fully man. He had to learn wisdom and be trained to ignore His flesh. (there is no flesh in heaven) Jesus learned wisdom (human) through experiencing all the difficulties that we go through.

We have a critical portion of the Spirit of God only that is dedicated to growing us in truth and into Christ, into his same spirit. It is a mystery what we will be in immortality, and maybe given the entire Spirit God at that time, as Christ. And yes, we can say everything in this regard is of the grace of God of course.

You then say we are responsible to fill our 'calling'.....and you cite Luke 12:48 as your support for a personal calling, given selective gifts or talents to use. And then you leave that thought hanging...

I believe you mean a first level of a walk as you use the analogy of the OT - from bondage to freedom in the wilderness as cited from Exodus.

Then you say we must walk-out of sin. They you leave that thought hanging also...

I have other videos that I am building on in order. I am careful to build on the previous video. So then to keep the video short....I only give brief reminders of of what I have already explored at more depth previously.

Then suddenly you say sanctification is not a process but something you must cry out to God for....deducing that if you don't cry out (the right way) you don't get sanctification and you are useless to God and maybe not saved or slated for bodily rebirth into the Kingdom??

Yes and no. Abel cried out and was heard. Cain cried out and was rejected. But Cain was told that if he got his sacrifice right God would receive it. So we are given time to get our sacrifice right.

But even if we fail...we can still remain humble and upright in what God has given us...for an inheritance among the righteous nations in the next age. There is no hell fire for the saved. But there is the threat of rejection into the wilderness for those who are filthy...who sully claims of holiness with sinful flesh.

Scripture says it is a call given by God once we are saved not that we need to call out to him for it.

We are to seek grace at the throne of grace in times of need. When we run out of inner oil...we can get a refill.

1 Thessalonians 4:7
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
,For God has not called us to uncleanliness but to sanctification. (Darby)

That is the higher calling.

And then you say, when we cry out to him for sanctification and gives us it (somehow) he bestows on us a higher spiritual walk, as the only way to be a saint. By deduction then those without sanctification are walking an unholy (and sinful?) walk that is like dirty rags to God. They are not truly saved or reborn I guess?

Whether we are present or absent from the Lord...we look to be at least acceptable (if not pleasing to Him). There are two levels of righteousness to ponder here. Righteousness wasn't invented in the NT. You can be instructed in righteousness from the OT...as Paul says.

No, when we are reborn and the Spirit inhabits our heart in spirit we are given sanctification to mature into, based on the truth and Christ.
You do not believe we are sanctified as rebirth I see. This is a non-starter for me and I can disucss this with scripture all day long if you wish....

Only once you are crucified and walk in the higher walk. There is a higher training in the higher walk. The training of a saint. Maintaining by maturity (ours) what has been given to us freely by grace (purity).

Sanctification (positional because of Christ) is the sign of true Salvation.

Yes,,,,,but I don't like "positional" theological way of writing holiness as being less than it really is...the perfection of Christ by abiding in Him.

It is given as a byproduct of real, living, heartfelt, spiritual faith in Christ and the ramifications of his Cross - freedom from sinfulness and the power of the flesh to control sin => justification from Christ and his works => Spirit of God gives truth and focus on growth into the same spirit as the Son => positional sanctification walk of life in righteousness and then practical experienced and progressive sanctification - becoming more Christlike => salvation

And then you grossly reinterpret the verses of Nicodemus and Yahshua concerning rebirth and seeing and and entering into the Kingdom. You say we are not in the Kingdom of God today as being saved. I say we are in the Kingdom today as Christ would say it is within me in spirit because I have the Spirit of God the core of the Kingdom.

And the Greek word here translated for 'see' means really a type of condition in spirit and mind of knowing, experiencing, sensing not actually seeing a physical or other dimensional realm of living.

You then presume there are many reborn people would have lost their way momentarily or presume or take their salvation for granted. That's your opinion and I believe true believers do not fall into those two classes. Maybe you should re-examine if you truly possess the new man?!
A third class that I belong to does not take face value their salvation, walk and faith. I pray and enjoy being in the spirit as I am most of the time, especially as I grow older in this world. I have never truly and completely lost hope in spiritual Godly purpose, thus far. I guess I'm unique..NOT!

I believe you are dead wrong concerning sanctification and righteousness regarding salvation and you apply a heavy dose of needless pessimism of fellow believers even though there most probably many Pharisee believers amongst us. And yes there are many denominationalists who are not living sanctifying life styles as you suggest, And then in the end, are they (still) saved or not?

I'm starting to conclude already, eventhough I have not assessed the second half of your presentation yet, that you show much pessimism and doubt in fellow believers because you want to maximize and contrast how different and wrong they surely are in their spiritual walk if they do not subscribe to your view of a desert, wilderness narrow and very difficult rebirth higher sanctifying walk experience that you have to work to please God. And only a few find it as you suggest....

I am speaking the truth. I can't tell you how I know what I do. I only ask that you seek the Lord and study hard.

You will find the goodness AND severity of God. For the righteous...the goodness...and for the pretenders...severity.