What does it mean to be born again?

[Laurina]

Another point, I don't go by others testimonies, hence me not sharing mine.
J.

I would think that you realize that the whole of the New Testament is testimony. Just sayin....

 

[Lizbeth]

Very bad reading...that supports wrong thinking. You who claim to be as righteous as God by wrong thinking also think that God was the One crucifying His own Son. But that is wrong. This is no doubt a waste of time for you...but for others..

Acts 2:23 "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"

The "Him" is Jesus...the "you" is not God ....and the means is by wicked hands. The foreknowledge and counsel of God means that God saw it and permitted it. But it wasn't the Father making His Son to be sin (which is unrighteous) so that sinners could be seen as righteous as God (again, unrighteousness claiming to be righteous.)

The unrighteousness is in the ones doing the false imputation. The bible never says...

That Abraham was imputed with God's righteousness. That error is championed by @Enoch111 who claims to be as righteous as God Himself.


What the bible DOES say...

Is. 53:6 "Hashem laid on Himself the iniquity of us all."

John 10:18 "No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

Notice the "Himself" and the "Myself". Not a vengeful God. The wrath of God is yet to come on the unrighteous.

And the bible also says this...that the translators chose to paper over...which doesn't help English speakers understand about righteousness..

Is. 53:11 b..."by His knowledge shall My servant justify the righteous, for He shall bear their iniquities."

That's what is says in the Septuagint as well as the MSS. You claim to know a tiny bit of Hebrew...check it out! The verse is talking about the righteous.

The scripture says God GAVE His only begotten Son...and in Gethsemane Jesus said to the Father "if you will, please take this cup from me, nevertheless not my will but THY WILL be done". Jesus laid down His life in obedience to the FATHER. He also said to Pilate, "you would have no power over me if it were not GIVEN you by my Father."

Since you wrote this -- WE NEED all reminders , lest we have come to the place we THINK WE TOO HIGH for such reminders -- you might consider how it applies to yourself. You go on and on and on and on ... and on in your self-righteous rants against everyone, including many in the body of Christ. WHY??? Who do you think you are to condemn so many of your brothers and sisters who are part of the body of Christ???

As Paul wrote in 1st Corinthians 4:3-4, "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me." If the great apostle Paul leaves it to the Lord to judge him, why don't you leave it to Him? STOP YOUR INCESSANT SELF-RIGHTEOUS RANTING ABOUT OTHER CHRISTIANS!!!

Paul said we ARE to judge those inside the church, not to judge those outside. That doesn't mean to condemn, it means to call people out and correct them when it is called for. As it certainly is around here.

 

[Azim]

Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Its quite common for people to look at a word, and go by a different meaning than what someone else is using it for.

Fear:
an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.

That is the typical meaning of fear we are accustomed of. However, there is also this one:

Biblical Fear:
Profound reverence and awe especially toward God.

 

[Episkopos]

I am tired now 12.04 AM--are you using Brenton's Septuagint Translation?

Besides your insinuations which I don't care, since you are not going to solicit a reaction from me--that it? Brenton's Septuagint?

Lexham Septuagint. But check out the Hebrew in the MSS...It says the very same thing. So it was those reformers that obscured the text. Do you know how to read this?

The MSS says... בְּדַעְתּוֹ יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי, לָרַבִּים; וַעֲוֺנֹתָם, הוּא יִסְבֹּל.

I'll answer you tomorrow, no offense to you Epi, I know Hebrew from a very young age, didn't know that, did you, and have listened to many, many debates with my Messianic brothers versus rabbis, for years, and still listening.
You familiar with Dr Michael Brown, Tovia Singer?

yes. But I don't agree with mixing evangelicalism with Judaism. And I think that Tovia is right about evangelicalism...but not how he understands it. There is a group in Toronto called "Jews for Judaism" that I would like to debate at one point. They are trying to confront "Jews for Judaism". I am very interested in reaching out to the Jews. You would enjoy some of their debates.

Before I sign off--how can YHVH justify the righteous, since the righteous are already justified?

You'd have to look a LOT deeper into OT prophecy. We sow in righteousness and God rains righteousness down on us. Like lightning that BOTH springs up from the earth AND comes down from heaven.....at the SAME time.

When-------------

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I'll leave you with that, coming back to you tomorrow.

J.

Again, you's have to see that God's righteousness is meant to convert people to at least a common righteousness...away from wickedness. But you'd have to understand how righteousness works to see that.

 

[Johann]

I would think that you realize that the whole of the New Testament is testimony. Just sayin....

1Co_1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

1Co_2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2Co_1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

2Th_1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Ti_1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

That's why I don't go on others testimonies, but what sayeth the Lord YHVH, what stands written, Perfect Tense.

Thank you for your contribution, I really appreciate it @Laurina and hopefully, will hear more from you, Lord willing.
J.

 

[Episkopos]

The scripture says God GAVE His only begotten Son...and in Gethsemane Jesus said to the Father "if you will, please take this cup from me, nevertheless not my will but THY WILL be done". Jesus laid down His life in obedience to the FATHER. He also said to Pilate, "you would have no power over me if it were not GIVEN you by my Father."

God also gave us martyrs. Does that mean that God hated His saints so much that He put them to death? You are not seeing the difference between the COUNSEL of God and the wrath of God. Does God want us to die for the sake of Christ? Yes. But is it God's wrath on us? No. God wants what is good in the eternal reality...what's good for us ultimately.

Paul said we ARE to judge those inside the church, not to judge those outside. That doesn't mean to condemn, it means to call people out and correct them when it is called for. As it certainly is around here.

And that's what I do. But the children are unruly, to say the least.

 

[Brakelite]

More dunamis to you brother, keep preaching the good ol' gospel....

2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Just one question.

We are the righteousness of God in Christ--are we AS kodesh as YHVH, or relatively, are we AS holy as God is, or are we reckoned as such?

Every time I ask this question I get various different interpretations.

J.

We are perfect in our own sphere of revelation. As the holy Spirit awakens us to our sins, deformities and shortcomings, we surrender ourselves anew to God's working His righteousness in us, and we are accounted holy and perfect in His sight. This may sound like a paradox, but righteousness by faith is a growing dynamic, and at each stage of it's growth... From glory to glory... We are being perfected. As a rose bud is perfect, so also is the rose.

 

[Johann]

The MSS says... בְּדַעְתּוֹ יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי, לָרַבִּים; וַעֲוֺנֹתָם, הוּא יִסְבֹּ

He who toils his soul will see , he will be satisfied in his opinion , he will justify the righteous , my servant to many , and their seasons he will endure :

Testing my Hebrew Epi?

yes. But I don't agree with mixing evangelicalism with Judaism. And I think that Tovia is right about evangelicalism...but not how he understands it. There is a group in Toronto called "Jews for Judaism" that I would like to debate at one point. They are trying to confront "Jews for Judaism". I am very interested in reaching out to the Jews. You would enjoy some of their debates.

Tovia Singer

Article
Talk
Read
Edit
View history
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Outreach Judaism" redirects here. For Jewish outreach in general, see Jewish outreach.
Rabbi
Tovia Singer
Title Founder and director of Outreach Judaism, a counter-missionary organization
Personal
Born September 20, 1960 (age 62)
Pennsylvania, U.S.
Religion Judaism
Nationality American
Denomination Orthodox Judaism
Alma mater The Mir Yeshiva
Occupation Rabbi
Jewish leader
Website www.outreachjudaism.org
Position Rabbi
Synagogue Beit Torat Chaim
Jakarta, Indonesia
Position Founder and Director
Organisation Outreach Judaism
This article is part of a series on
Messianic Judaism
Messianic Judaism
Theology and practice
MessiahYeshua
Religious texts
Messianic Bible Translations
Related movements
Hebrew Christian movement
Opposition
Jews for JudaismProselytization and counter-proselytization of JewsTovia SingerYad L'AchimPenina Taylor
vte
Tovia Singer (born September 20, 1960) is an American Orthodox rabbi and the founder and director of Outreach Judaism.[1] Outreach Judaism is managed under the Eits Chaim Indonesia Foundation, which describes itself as an advocate for the Jewish faith, the Jewish people, and the State of Israel.[2] After five years in Indonesia, Singer moved to Jerusalem, Israel on the 9th of May 2019 where he now lives in the Jewish quarter of the Old-City.

Outreach Judaism
Singer is the founder and director of Outreach Judaism, a Jewish counter-missionary organization.[3] It describes itself as "an international organization that responds directly to the issues raised by missionaries and cults, by exploring Judaism in contradistinction to fundamentalist Christianity."[4] Singer cautions regarding congregations that "are designed to appear Jewish, but are actually fundamentalist Christian churches, which use traditional Jewish symbols to lure the most vulnerable of our Jewish people into their ranks."[5] Outreach Judaism was described by J. Gordon Melton in 2002 as an example of "the current state of Jewish counter-cult activity."[6]
Wikipedia

Some background as you made a mistake.



In fact, Jews for Judaism is spearheaded by rabbi Tovia Singer--Jews for Judaism is an international organization that focuses on preventing Jews from converting to other faiths and reclaiming those who have already ...

So you want to debate Tovia? I can arrange for a meeting between you two.

Maybe you were thinking re Jews for Jesus, Messianic?

Not being facetious with you, really, you wont stand a chance in debating a rabbi, Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox Jew in ANY debate.

Signing off

J.

 

[Johann]

We are perfect in our own sphere of revelation. As the holy Spirit awakens us to our sins, deformities and shortcomings, we surrender ourselves anew to God's working His righteousness in us, and we are accounted holy and perfect in His sight. This may sound like a paradox, but righteousness by faith is a growing dynamic, and at each stage of it's growth... From glory to glory... We are being perfected. As a rose bud is perfect, so also is the rose.

Growth in progressive sanctification, denied by most @Brakelite

 

[Episkopos]

He who toils his soul will see , he will be satisfied in his opinion , he will justify the righteous , my servant to many , and their seasons he will endure :

Testing my Hebrew Epi?



In fact, Jews for Judaism is spearheaded by rabbi Tovia Singer--Jews for Judaism is an international organization that focuses on preventing Jews from converting to other faiths and reclaiming those who have already ...

So you want to debate Tovia? I can arrange for a meeting between you two.

Maybe you were thinking re Jews for Jesus, Messianic?

Not being facetious with you, really, you wont stand a chance in debating a rabbi, Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox Jew in ANY debate.

Signing off

J.

I would do better than you think...because I know how Jews think. And I know the MSS. I can show the different levels of righteousness in the Torah. I can show how Christians, for the most part, have no understanding whatsover about righteousness...on any level...mixing everything up. And the Jews have no understanding of the greater righteousness of Hashem.

Knowing both bridges the gap between the two.

If you think you can understand what I'm saying...look...in Hebrew (MSS)... what the difference between Ex. 21:23 and Deut. 19:21 is. And explain the difference.

 

[Johann]

I would do better than you think...because I know how Jews think. And I know the MSS. I can show the different levels of righteousness in the Torah. I can show how Christians, for the most part, have no understanding whatsover about righteousness...on any level...mixing everything up. And the Jews have no understanding of the greater righteousness of Hashem.

Epi, I would love to see you in a debate with ANY Jew, especially Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox--do you know the rules for engaging in a debate?

 

[Johann]

I would do better than you think...because I know how Jews think. And I know the MSS. I can show the different levels of righteousness in the Torah. I can show how Christians, for the most part, have no understanding whatsover about righteousness...on any level...mixing everything up. And the Jews have no understanding of the greater righteousness of Hashem.

I'm afraid you don't know how Jews think Epi,--and I happen to notice your mistake in Jews for Judaism and Jews for Jesus, and who is what.
No offense.

 

[Episkopos]

He who toils his soul will see , he will be satisfied in his opinion , he will justify the righteous , my servant to many , and their seasons he will endure :

Testing my Hebrew Epi?

Testing your reading skills and your honesty. Why did the translators obscure so many references to the righteous? They were interested in building a religion that only had ONE dimension to righteousness...to keep it simple for the uneducated (unlearned) masses.

Do you see that the Hebrew and the Greek Septuagint agree with my assessment of the righteous? That God is covering the righteous with HIS righteousness.

Or do we need more years of study?

 

[Johann]

Testing your reading skills and your honesty. Why did the translators obscure do many references to the righteous? They were interested in building a religion that only had ONE dimension to righteousness...to keep it simple for the uneducated (unlearned) masses.

Do you see that the Hebrew and the Greek Septuagint agree with my assessment of the righteous? That God is covering the righteous with HIS righteousness.

Or do we need more years of study?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
J.

 

[Episkopos]

Epi, I would love to see you in a debate with ANY Jew, especially Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox--do you know the rules for engaging in a debate?

You begin with a statement and back it up with both scripture and logic. The other one does the same. Then comes the argument phase where each is given a time to rebut the other. And if there's time, the audience asks questions to one or the other.

I believe with the help of God I would win...IF there is honesty. It is the dishonesty and circular religious reasoning that get in the way of understanding.

 

[Johann]

Testing your reading skills and your honesty.

Was that a backhand compliment?

 

[Episkopos]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
J.

Right, see you in a few years then! ;)

 

[Episkopos]

Was that a backhand compliment?

I'm not interested in the state of your ego. But you don't seem to be registering an understanding of your own translating. Is Jesus justifying the righteous? or not? can you read it? A non-Hebrew reader can't see it...but can you? (here comes the honesty part)

יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק

 

[Brakelite]

Oh…yeah, sorry, I should probably qualify that statement…
Every thread, EXCEPT for when you become SO angry and SO offended and receive such a tremendous narcissistic injury that you announce he is going back on ignore and then, for a brief amount of time, you make no comments in his threads. Then, you enter one and post something slightly conciliatory and want conversation with him and the whole pattern repeats.

To be quite frank with you, I am wondering if you are addressing a different Marks than the one I know. Really, that one you are describing, I haven't met.

 

[Johann]

I'm not interested in the state of your ego. But you don't seem to be registering an understanding of your own translating. Is Jesus justifying the righteous? or not? can you read it? A non-Hebrew reader can't see it...but can you?

I have said I'm tired, 1:22 AM. My ego is dethroned, thank the Lord for that, doesn't mean I'm struggling.
The one who have a tremendous problem with the ego eimi is you Epi--and the mere suggestion that you can "convince" a Orthodox rabbi through the Western worldview/lenses to embrace Christianity is quite a task, where will you start?

I understand more than you realize brother, no boasting, and can clearly see that you are way out of depth here.

But now I must go.