What does it mean to be born again?

[stunnedbygrace]

May I be frank with you? I have the same experience as you, but you have to believe/trust that you are IN Christ and Christ IN you. This is the reality of the Scriptures, you might not "feel" like you are not IN HIM, but you are.

He remains in me even if I am faithless. I do not remain in Him though. And if any man insists I do, I disagree because there is no sin in Him.

This isn’t concerned with if I will live forever. If He is in me, I will. This is concerned with if any man says he is in Christ he must walk just as Christ walked. But I suppose I will now be told I DO walk just as He did and I just refuse to believe I do because of the sin I see in me?

 

[Episkopos]

Correct, calm down, your flesh is stirred up, and Stun can see it.

My amusement is on display. When things go into the absurd...I tend to laugh about it. Humour is a legitimate response to the absurd. If you could see the absurdity I'm sure you would not be taking yourself or my responses to some crazy statements here so seriously.

 

[marks]

Here is the hypocrisy and dishonesty of the present religious culture...

A person picks up a bible and reads..."We are seated in heavenly places in Christ." The person gasps..."I am"???? The religious lying spirit responds..."yes you are!" The person is made happy because he can have an even greater self-esteem...thanks to Jesus. His flesh (now made religious) can be twice as deceived as it ever was.

Now that same person reads in the bible..."you are poor, naked, wretched and blind". The person gasps..."who me?" The religious lying spirit says..."no, not you, you're special...you are seated in heavenly places, remember?!!!" The person's self-esteem remains intact and untouched by the truth and can continue to avoid the cross (since it's Jesus' job to do all the hard stuff...we just get all the free benefits) And they all said...amen!

The simplicity is that each of these have application to some and not to others. The one who is in truth seated in the heavenlies is not poor and blind and naked. Though the one who disbelieves the promises of God may live as though they were.

The one who is poor and blind and naked isn't seated with Christ in the heavenlies. Of course the one who is actually poor and blind and naked isn't able to live as those who are seated in the heavenlies with Christ, and would not surprise me by denying this as a reality for those who are in Christ.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Correct, calm down, your flesh is stirred up, and Stun can see it.

No I can’t see that. I don’t think he is angry or arrogant or anything else that is stirred up flesh. I agree with him. I think it is a lack of any humility to say you sin but are in Christ, to say you are in Christ while not walking as He walked.

 

[Episkopos]

My experience is that a full trusting in the efficacy of Jesus' death to have worked my own death absolves me of anything that would hinder my faith in Him, so that I can walk in His Spirit, bearing the fruit of His Spirit in me, walking in the pre-ordained works, not conscious of sins.

I don't expect that I would ever claim to be sinless, that strikes me as foolishness and hubris, only Jesus is the proper and fit judge.

My experience has been that for a time I think that God gifted me with the faith to so live for a season, then after that season began my training to apprehend that same walk and mind through trusting in Chris on a more conscious level.

Isaiah, Jeremiah, both used words like, our transgressions testify against us, the Godly answer is, the just shall live by faith, and, we walk by faith and not by sight.

Seeing the sins of your flesh doesn't mean your new creation is tainted by sin. Standing in that faith, you will see the sins of the flesh cease. Maybe quickly, maybe through a process of time - of training - of renewing the mind.

And I'm not just talking about "not sinning", that is, abstaining from those things you hold to be wrong, but truly not sinning, meaning, a failure to be joyful, a failure to be loving, a failure to be faithful and trusting, like that.

Simply stated, He showed me through experience what walking in faith looks like, and now He shows me how to hold to that faith more and more consistently, so as to stand in His grace.

Much love!

There is a lot of vagueness here...some of it almost sounds about right...but a person will never seek for something he believes he already has.

 

[Episkopos]

The simplicity is that each of these have application to some and not to others. The one who is in truth seated in the heavenlies is not poor and blind and naked. Though the one who disbelieves the promises of God may live as though they were.

The one who is poor and blind and naked isn't seated with Christ in the heavenlies. Of course the one who is actually poor and blind and naked isn't able to live as those who are seated in the heavenlies with Christ, and would not surprise me by denying this as a reality for those who are in Christ.

Much love!

....but what if your told to believe the good stuff and resist the negative stuff? Doesn't the flesh love that kind of directive. How do you get more people in the pews...how does a religious business model look if you are tearing down the flesh?

A humble person will always receive the correction....and allow God to justify him/her.

When Jesus ate with His disciples before the Passover he said, "one of you will betray me." They responded..."Is it me, Lord?" How very unlike the product of the present religious culture.

 

[marks]

What is the reality of this experience? The fruit of the Spirit?

It's the fruit of the Spirit that really captured my attention, when I realized we don't have to "grow into it". It's not "our" fruit, it's the Holy Spirit (the vine) producing fruit in us.

Does God desire delay in how loving we are? I don't believe so.

My experience is that joyfulness and peacefulness are in every circumstance while I am trusting in Jesus. I know He loves me, I know He's in control of my life, and though it looks like I have cliffs on every side, that I could fall into disaster at any moment, I'm still, I'm safe, I'm exactly where He wants me.

Troubles are His toolbox, so there is no need to fear.

I digress. What I really want to say in this, I've come to realize, when I'm not loving, it's because I'm not standing in faith in my reconciliation to God. And when I'm not at peace, same reason. Not self controlled? Same reason. Trust in Jesus brings communion with God, which bears fruit in my life.

I've learned that when I renew that trust in God - not looking at myself, the truth is in Christ - His fruit becomes evident in me again. I've learned that I can drift from this into a fleshy response to whatever is happening, and the first clue that this is happening is that I'm not living in this spiritual fruit.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There is a lot of vagueness here...

Did you have a question?

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Did you have a question?

Much love!

Not really.

 

[marks]

but a person will never seek for something he believes he already has.

How are you relating this to what I've said?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Not really.

OK.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

How are you relating this to what I've said?

Much love!

The question is whether you think it's true...whether you are personally involved or not. Does your personal involvement change your answer in any way?

 

[marks]

@Lizbeth, this is puzzling to me, the spiritual understanding of scriptures I do understand--the experiential side, how do you experience walking in the Spirit, being led by the Spirit, in/en the Spirit 24/7?

Romans 5:1-5 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Experience here is "proof shown by testing". God trains us to endure afflictions, and as we endure afflictions, we see His answer to them. His faithfulness. Our endurance as He works out His will gives us the history in our own lives of seeing God's faithfulness, and we have increased confidence in His promises.

We have the spiritual understanding of His Spirit teaching our spirit, and we have the evidence in our lives that this is true, undergirding our faith.

Jesus didn't just say He rose from the dead, He showed Himself to them, saying, be believing.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The question is whether you think it's true...whether you are personally involved or not. Does your personal involvement change your answer in any way?

I don't understand your question to me. Whether I think what is true?

Much love!

 

[Jim B]

He remains in me even if I am faithless. I do not remain in Him though. And if any man insists I do, I disagree because there is no sin in Him.

This isn’t concerned with if I will live forever. If He is in me, I will. This is concerned with if any man says he is in Christ he must walk just as Christ walked. But I suppose I will now be told I DO walk just as He did and I just refuse to believe I do because of the sin I see in me?

Why do you believe that Christians don't sin? Nobody can "walk as Jesus walked" 100% of the time. Every person will sin, Christian or not, but Christians should not sin deliberately. None of us are perfect, but sinning dliberately is living contrary to the internal guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left," That word is critically important.

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

1 John 2:1b-2, "But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

 

[marks]

But I suppose I will now be told I DO walk just as He did and I just refuse to believe I do because of the sin I see in me?

No, that's not it. You don't believe in what would give you that power, you deny that you do, so I'm not about to suppose that you do.

But what if you believed that He has in fact given you the power, only up til now, you haven't believed it? What it you accepted the face value of these passages I keep quoting to you?

Much love!

 

[marks]

....but what if your told to believe the good stuff and resist the negative stuff?

If you are talking about resisting Scripture, that's what I'm saying. Stop doing that.

Doesn't the flesh love that kind of directive. How do you get more people in the pews...how does a religious business model look if you are tearing down the flesh?

Flesh loves all sorts of things, certainly, ungodly things, things that tear down faith. IF your church is more about the business of things, maybe time to find a new church.

A humble person will always receive the correction....and allow God to justify him/her.

Certainly!

When Jesus ate with His disciples before the Passover he said, "one of you will betray me." They responded..."Is it me, Lord?" How very unlike the product of the present religious culture.

Bandy that about however you wish . . .

Yes, there are many who betray Him still.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Why do you believe that Christians don't sin?

Why do you believe I said Christian’s don’t ever sin?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No, that's not it. You don't believe in what would give you that power, you deny that you do, so I'm not about to suppose that you do.

But what if you believed that He has in fact given you the power, only up til now, you haven't believed it? What it you accepted the face value of these passages I keep quoting to you?

Much love!

What do you mean I don’t believe in what would give me that power? Just because I see I am not somewhere does not mean I believe I can never be there. I have great hope. I hope for what I don’t have yet. I don’t hope for what I’m certain I already have.
And I do accept the passages. Just because I am not yet somewhere does not mean I reject the passages and think all things are impossible with God. It just means I’m being truthful.

 

[marks]

What do you mean I don’t believe in what would give me that power? Just because I see I am not somewhere does not mean I believe I can never be there. I have great hope. I hope for what I don’t have yet. I don’t hope for what I’m certain I already have.
And I do accept the passages. Just because I am not yet somewhere does not mean I reject the passages and think all things are impossible with God. It just means I’m being truthful.

Do you believe you can walk in the Spirit today? That God has given you that power in making you a new creation? I'm glad you have hope that someday you can, but why not today?

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Why wait?

Much love!