What did Jesus die to save us from?

[St. SteVen]

It is clear from the passage He was addressing the whole group of disciples and therefore the 'You' I believe is plural. Jesus was teaching them how to relate as the group which would become the Church. So the context is mutual submission.

Were you somehow outside of the group when God told you that a 100% success rate would make you proud?
And wouldn't your conclusion mean the whole group would need to ask? The word "you" appears in both sentences.
It seems like a workaround to use two different definitions. (plural/singular)

John 14:13-14 NIV
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

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[St. SteVen]

You cant understand what it says unless you know how it works.

How it works proves that it doesn't mean what it says. The novice hits a roadblock here. I know I did.
I don't know of any believer, who knows how it works, that has made a tree wither by cursing it, or thrown a mountain into the sea.

• Matthew 17:20
  He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed,
  you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
  
  
• Matthew 21:21
  Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt,
  not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain,
  ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done.
  
  
• Mark 11:23
  “Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt
  in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them.

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[Carl Emerson]

Were you somehow outside of the group when God told you that a 100% success rate would make you proud?

No... I have long learned to see discernment as a body function not an individual sport...

 

[Carl Emerson]

How it works proves that it doesn't mean what it says.

Not when you understand what faith is.

Unless you have heard God say what He wants to do and invites your proclamation concerning it, there is no way you can have faith but you will only presume.

If you have heard but resist His word then you slide into unbelief.

So faith is not a human mindset but confidence in what He has said to you personally.

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen

Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Were you somehow outside of the group when God told you that a 100% success rate would make you proud?

No... I have long learned to see discernment as a body function not an individual sport...

That's a bit of a non-answer, but curious as well.
Saying "No..." indicates that you agree that you were "inside" the group/church at the time. Is that correct?
Yet your previous point was that the "you" was plural. Meaning, as it were, that the power to work miracles was a function of being in the group, operating "in the name". Unless I misunderstand you.

This seems to be nonsense to me. Either the group, or a reasonable representation of such, needs to be on sight for a miracle to occur, or miracles need to be sanctioned by a unanimous group decision. That somehow, a single believer cannot operate independently in the supernatural with only the direction of God. I can't imagine that you believe that. But if so, you have some explaining to do. Thanks.

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[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
How it works proves that it doesn't mean what it says.

Not when you understand what faith is.

What? This is not a grey area.
It either means what it says, or it doesn't. And you have admitted that it doesn't.
All you have provided are apologetic workarounds to whitewash the obvious.
While claiming some sort of spiritual superiority in your understanding. (inherently, not maliciously, I hope)

I understand your hesitancy to agree with me on this, but you are the one left with the cognitive dissonance here.
To agree with me means to question what the Bible says, and I understand that you CAN'T go there, I get it.

Now I will read and reply to the rest of your post. I needed to settle this first.

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[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
How it works proves that it doesn't mean what it says.

Not when you understand what faith is.

Understand what faith is? Faith in a Bible that can't be taken at face value? Doesn't that promote Occultism on some level? Secret knowledge.

Unless you have heard God say what He wants to do and invites your proclamation concerning it, there is no way you can have faith but you will only presume.

Individually, or the group?

If you have heard but resist His word then you slide into unbelief.

Individually, or the group?

So faith is not a human mindset but confidence in what He has said to you personally.

Individually, or the group? Individually, obviously. What became of the group operating in Jesus' name?

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen

Agree. What evidence?

Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ.

The rhema word? (or logos?)

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[amadeus]

I don't think anything should be dismissed here. All three points we made are biblical and true as far as I can tell.

Power in the name/authority of Jesus:
1) For those living in his name
2) For those not living in the name, who use the name (in some instances)
3) Lack of power for some who use the name - Sons of Sceva.

Question; Were the seven sons of Sceva NOT living in the name of Jesus?
Do we need to have a reputation in the realm of darkness to deliver some spirits?

Ac 19:15

And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

Mark 9:29 NIV
He replied, “This kind can come out only by prayer.[and fasting]” (some manuscripts)

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And does not God work to accomplish all of His will according to all of His plan? Does not His plan include curses as well as blessings? The curses are there because God gave men two choices: His Way or man's own way. God seeing the whole picture all of the time, uses men where they are to accomplish God's purposes. We can argue or converse back and forth on this with each other and with others, but we, each of us, can only know what He allows us to know. Who but God can separate the knowledge each of us might have been given from that which is only believed by faith? The just shall live by faith. Who shall direct us so that we do not fall in a ditch?

Pr 3:5	Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pr 3:6	In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

 

[Carl Emerson]

St. SteVen said:
Were you somehow outside of the group when God told you that a 100% success rate would make you proud?

That's a bit of a non-answer, but curious as well.
Saying "No..." indicates that you agree that you were "inside" the group/church at the time. Is that correct?
Yet your previous point was that the "you" was plural. Meaning, as it were, that the power to work miracles was a function of being in the group, operating "in the name". Unless I misunderstand you.

This seems to be nonsense to me. Either the group, or a reasonable representation of such, needs to be on sight for a miracle to occur, or miracles need to be sanctioned by a unanimous group decision. That somehow, a single believer cannot operate independently in the supernatural with only the direction of God. I can't imagine that you believe that. But if so, you have some explaining to do. Thanks.

[

Was Philip outside the group when he was led into the desert ? NO

Inside or outside refers to the fellowship of unity.

'In the Name' is a positional statement meaning 'in fellowship with'.

 

[Carl Emerson]

St. SteVen said:
How it works proves that it doesn't mean what it says.

What? This is not a grey area.
It either means what it says, or it doesn't. And you have admitted that it doesn't.
All you have provided are apologetic workarounds to whitewash the obvious.
While claiming some sort of spiritual superiority in your understanding. (inherently, not maliciously, I hope)

I understand your hesitancy to agree with me on this, but you are the one left with the cognitive dissonance here.
To agree with me means to question what the Bible says, and I understand that you CAN'T go there, I get it.

Now I will read and reply to the rest of your post. I needed to settle this first.

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What do you believe faith is ???

 

[Carl Emerson]

St. SteVen said:
How it works proves that it doesn't mean what it says.

Understand what faith is? Faith in a Bible that can't be taken at face value? Doesn't that promote Occultism on some level? Secret knowledge.


Individually, or the group?


Individually, or the group?


Individually, or the group? Individually, obviously. What became of the group operating in Jesus' name?


Agree. What evidence?


The rhema word? (or logos?)

[

Steven the issue does not have to be complicated.

I have lived through an unforgettable revival. When by the Spirit folks come together in unity He shows up and amazing things happen. Just like in Acts. The unity is a necessary platform for the gifts to operate, No Celebs, the least are heard and can carry God's Word.

In this mode folks hear His Word personally and act on it and the Kingdom advances. Love prevails.

Most churches are so structured that this move of God cannot get off square one.

Faith then is walking in what Jesus is saying day by day hour by hour.

There are checks and balances active - the study of Scripture, prayer, active agreement, sharing, loving correction.

Folks then are 'in the Name of Jesus'

I describe what was happening in the mainstream church - not a cult.

For me this mode continues - I hear what He says and act on it. I have the confidence of my leadership, this is faith as it was meant to be.

This however is largely not taught.

Most churches celebrate a faith that once was and do not comprehend a living faith that is both corporate and individual. Folks are not taught to hear the voice of the Spirit so faith is thought of as a mindset that we have to maintain.

Jesus could only do what He saw the father doing, this is how it should be but it is not generally taught.

This is not 'secret knowledge' as you suggest, it is how it was meant to be, but mans agenda's have gotten in the way.

In this mode the Scriptures you raise are understandable - the miraculous becomes more common, the 'impossible' mountains move - He is Glorified - the Church grows at pace.

 

[St. SteVen]

Was Philip outside the group when he was led into the desert ? NO

Inside or outside refers to the fellowship of unity.

'In the Name' is a positional statement meaning 'in fellowship with'.

It's hard to follow this discussion when you keep changing horses midstream.

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[Carl Emerson]

It's hard to follow this discussion when you keep changing horses midstream.

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Explain please where I have not been consistent.

 

[St. SteVen]

Explain please where I have not been consistent.

Somewhere on page #10. (continued on page #11)
The group, or the individual? Clarify please. Thanks.

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[Carl Emerson]

Somewhere on page #10. (continued on page #11)
The group, or the individual? Clarify please. Thanks.

[

OK - One issue I take into account when considering how verses might be understood is to identify the audience.

Was the quote made to an individual or to a group of believers.

Here is an example.

The warning to return to First Love in the 7 letters in Revelation was a warning about how the Church as a group should return to how it first functioned.

This verse, however, is usually used to challenge an individual believer to reconnect with Jesus as He was experienced when fresh in the faith.

I have never heard the verse applied to the Church today returning to the First Love practiced in the early Church, yet that is sorely needed.

OK so far ???

 

[St. SteVen]

I was raised evangelical, but find myself questioning much of what we were taught in church.
This gets me in trouble with those, like me, who were raised to NEVER question the answers the church fed us.
Questions, it seems are for unbelievers. A healthy skepticism is viewed as agnostic, or unbelief.
And unbelief, seen as a loss of salvation. (sigh)

Therefore, the question in this topic title seems pivotal. What did Jesus die to save us from?

If the correct answer is, "Jesus died to save us from the wrath of God.", then essentially...
Jesus died to save us from God. Could anything be more pointless than that?

Just to be clear, I understand that Jesus paid the death penalty for our sin.
And that this paves the way for a restored relationship with God.
Which seems to be the plan. As opposed to the common belief.
Which claims that God's plan is to incinerate the vast majority of humankind. Or worse.

What did Jesus die to save us from?

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[Behold]

What did Jesus die to save us from?

1.) The Devil

2.) The Power Sin

3.) The Law

4.) "the wrath to come" + Hell + The 2nd Death

 

[Jack]

What did Jesus die to save us from?

You don't even know that?

 

[Rightglory]

I was raised evangelical, but find myself questioning much of what we were taught in church.
This gets me in trouble with those, like me, who were raised to NEVER question the answers the church fed us.
Questions, it seems are for unbelievers. A healthy skepticism is viewed as agnostic, or unbelief.
And unbelief, seen as a loss of salvation. (sigh)

Therefore, the question in this topic title seems pivotal. What did Jesus die to save us from?

If the correct answer is, "Jesus died to save us from the wrath of God.", then essentially...
Jesus died to save us from God. Could anything be more pointless than that?

Just to be clear, I understand that Jesus paid the death penalty for our sin.
And that this paves the way for a restored relationship with God.
Which seems to be the plan. As opposed to the common belief.
Which claims that God's plan is to incinerate the vast majority of humankind. Or worse.

What did Jesus die to save us from?

[

Heb 2:14-18 sums it up quite nicely.
Other short answers could be Heb 2:9. or I John 2:2.

 

[Ritajanice]

Eternal damnation/ wrath of God.....Jesus is the only way back to the Father.