What did Jesus die to save us from?

[Johann]

I didn't say that I believe in that; I said, "Most Christians".

St. SteVen said:
Most Christians claim that the torment is the wrath of God against unbelievers.
A point that seems to be lost on you.

It would seem you fire random questions and are a lighthearted kinda fella--what's the matter, don't believe in what stands written?

Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom_2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom_9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

A death blow against universalism-the above Scriptures, in fact, all the Scriptures-in context--

Rom_13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Eph_5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Col_3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Jas_1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev_14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev_15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev_15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev_16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Just at a glance, reading these Scriptures-can you honestly tell me the WHOLE world will be saved?

 

[Johann]

It does not matter what "most" any group says about this. What does the Word of God say? And are you prepared to believe and accept what Scripture says? The final authority regarding all things spiritual is the written Word of God. Regardless of what people say, or think, or speculate.

Correct, biblical thinking.

 

[St. SteVen]

Well, some Christians.

What is your view?

 

[St. SteVen]

It would seem you fire random questions and are a lighthearted kinda fella--what's the matter, don't believe in what stands written?

Thanks, I guess. - LOL
What "stands written" fell apart long ago,

I would like to find out what was ACTUALLY written.
Do you know where our Bible came from? (or where it went) ???

What was actually written was lost long ago. (original manuscripts) All we have is bad copies and
biased translations of a collection of books that was voted into one of three canons.

You have unwittingly elected Augustine as your doctrinal patriarch.
Have you thanked the Catholics for providing you with a Bible?

If our Bible had come from the Eastern Church. we would have something quite different.
Universalism isn't new. It was a dominant theology in the early church.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

 

[Johann]

Thanks, I guess. - LOL
What "stands written" fell apart long ago,

I would like to find out what was ACTUALLY written.
Do you know where our Bible came from? (or where it went) ???

What was actually written was lost long ago. (original manuscripts) All we have is bad copies and
biased translations of a collection of books that was voted into one of three canons.

You have unwittingly elected Augustine as your doctrinal patriarch.
Have you thanked the Catholics for providing you with a Bible?

If our Bible had come from the Eastern Church. we would have something quite different.
Universalism isn't new. It was a dominant theology in the early church.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

So you question the infallibility of our Bible, the KJV? Is that what you are suggesting?
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good action.

So this verse is not "as written" Perfect Tense--you are looking for what is ACTUALLY written?

1) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (pasa graphe theopneustos) "Every scripture (is) God-breathed, inspired;" This means every sacred writing which is inspired of God is also profitable; Sacred writings of false religions were neither inspired nor profitable; 2Pe_1:20-21.

So our current Bible is not theopneustos--you are still looking for the "lost" written Kitvei Hakodesh-correct?

Isa 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

So this "book of the Lord might NOT be the book of the Lord?"

Hence you "firing" questions to born again believers how they "view" their Scriptures, which might not be infallible, but fallible, as we "don't HAVE what is actually written?"

 

[St. SteVen]

It does not matter what "most" any group says about this. What does the Word of God say? And are you prepared to believe and accept what Scripture says? The final authority regarding all things spiritual is the written Word of God. Regardless of what people say, or think, or speculate.

Who's interpretation should we use? There is no consensus.
You write "the Word of God" as if it is understood as a singular thing. Not so.

And...
According to the Bible, "the Word of God" was the pre-incarnate Christ. (the Word became flesh)

If it really doesn't matter what any group says about this, I'll be happy to ignore YOUR group. - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

So you question the infallibility of our Bible, the KJV? Is that what you are suggesting?

The KJV isn't the ONLY Bible. Are you suggesting that the King James translation is somehow infallible? (seems so)

 

[St. SteVen]

1) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (pasa graphe theopneustos) "Every scripture (is) God-breathed, inspired;" This means every sacred writing which is inspired of God is also profitable; Sacred writings of false religions were neither inspired nor profitable; 2Pe_1:20-21.

What was "all scripture" when that was written? The New testament wasn't canonized until the fourth century.

 

[St. SteVen]

Isa 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

So this "book of the Lord might NOT be the book of the Lord?"

What was the "book of the Lord" when that was written? The Torah.

 

[St. SteVen]

Hence you "firing" questions to born again believers how they "view" their Scriptures, which might not be infallible, but fallible, as we "don't HAVE what is actually written?"

What would our Catholic brothers and sisters say about Sola Scriptura? (not biblical)

 

[Johann]

The KJV isn't the ONLY Bible. Are you suggesting that the King James translation is somehow infallible? (seems so)

Is your NIV infallible? Which Bible would you say is infallible?
KJV is definitely infallible.

 

[Johann]

What would our Catholic brothers and sisters say about Sola Scriptura? (not biblical)

Thanks for the heads up, Saint Steven.

 

[Johann]

What was the "book of the Lord" when that was written? The Torah.

And is our B'rit Chadasha NOT infallible-or a mere copy and paste TO the Torah?

​

 

[mailmandan]

Matthew 1:21 - And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.

 

[Johann]

Matthew 1:21 - And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.

Psa_130:7-8; Isa_12:1-2, Isa_45:21-22; Jer_23:6, Jer_33:16; Eze_36:25-29; Dan_9:24; Zec_9:9; Joh_1:29; Act_3:26, Act_4:12, Act_5:31, Act_13:23, Act_13:38-39; Eph_5:25-27; Col_1:20-23; Tit_2:14; Heb_7:25; 1Jn_1:7, 1Jn_2:1-2, 1Jn_3:5; Rev_1:5-6, Rev_7:14

 

[theJW]

From the Penalty of our Forefather, Adam- DEATH!

 

[Johann]

What would our Catholic brothers and sisters say about Sola Scriptura? (not biblical)

Dodging questions, a poor representative of the Catholic Church-you believe in purgatory? Praying to the dead?

 

[Johann]

From the Penalty of our Forefather, Adam- DEATH!

Do you know that Yeshua is God?

 

[theJW]

Do you know that Yeshua is God?

I'm sure this website THINKS so; no discussions of the 'Trinity'....

 

[Johann]

I'm sure this website THINKS so; no discussions of the 'Trinity'....

But it is not what YOU think, yes?
I enjoy the cowboy movie-Trinity

Now that you've "liked" what I said-I firmly and irrevocably believe in the Triune Godhead.