What Are we Getting Saved From?

[face2face]

The “angels who sinned” are identified in 2 Peter 2:4...
“Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.”

Clearly human messengers being judged!

You have a major problem with your god and him keeping to his divine decree!

Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death!

Explain

 

[Aunty Jane]

Clearly human messengers being judged!

What "human messengers"?

There were no human messengers in Noah's day apart from Noah.....your scenario just keeps getting weirder and weirder....
All mankind was led astray by the Nephilim and their errant angelic fathers at that time. Why bring a global flood (yes the Bible says it was global) if it wasn't warranted? What was the purpose of taking everything that lived on land, out of existence? Only what was preserved in the ark, survived. Why did no creature that lived in the water need preserving?

God demonstrated with Sodom and Gomorrah that he could take care of a local problem with a local solution....so now its your turn to "explain".

You have a major problem with your god and him keeping to his divine decree!

Sorry...what???

What are these phantom references supposed to mean?

Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death!

Yes, the wages sin pays is death...for humans and angels. The first sinner was not human. Satan and his angels will pay for their sin with their own death. That is what scripture says.....but apparently not to you.....

Where are you getting these whacked out ideas? Please identify their source....your reluctance is telling me that you have a problem with that....why?

 

[face2face]

Yes, the wages sin pays is death...for humans and angels. The first sinner was not human. Satan and his angels will pay for their sin with their own death. That is what scripture says.....but apparently not to you.....

Where are you getting these whacked out ideas? Please identify their source....your reluctance is telling me that you have a problem with that....why?

Enter the Word dont run from it!

If divine angels were sinners, then they would die - deal with that first! Jesus said angels do not die...right (Luke 20:36).

Add 1+1 = angels which sinned were human, not divine angels.

So now you have a challenge - find out where in Scripture the word aggeloi relates to humans...can you do that?

I'm guessing you cannot from your constant irritable tone!

Otherwise prove from the text its speaking to divine angels.

Or be honest!

 

[bbyrd009]

What “alternative perspective” did you present?

ah well, i never quite got that far…lol

Wild guesses as to what might be the meaning of scripture? Seriously?

i guess; go with that if you like
been good talking, see ya

 

[Aunty Jane]

Enter the Word dont run from it!

What are you running from? Please identify your brotherhood...that is the open and honest thing to do. I am not afraid or ashamed to identify my brotherhood...so why are you?

If divine angels were sinners, then they would die - deal with that first! Jesus said angels do not die...right (Luke 20:36).

O my goodness....are you serious? The first sinner was an angel...identified as the "covering cherub" in the garden of Eden in Ezekiel. He was perfect until he chose to sin, entertaining grand ideas about himself and wanting the worship accorded to God for himself. Why do you think he tempted Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world" if he would just do "one act of worship" to him.

Angels cannot die in the same way that humans do since they require no external means to keep living....but the Bible clearly states that satan and his demons will end up in "the lake of fire" which is a place Jesus said was "prepared for them"...a place where wicked humans and angels will end up....it means being taken completely out of existence. So angels can die if God executes them.

Since Adam and his wife were the first humans, who else was there to tempt them? A snake?

Or a spirit creature who presented himself as a serpent and offered the woman something that made her think that what she had could be better?

You step outside of scripture when you claim that satan wasn't a fallen angel. He had clear access to heaven and the other angels in God's presence. No human can do that.

In Job chs 1 & 2 it says..."Now the day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord—and Satan also arrived among them". (ESV)
The footnote to the expression "sons of God" says....
"The “sons of God” in the OT is generally taken to refer to angels. They are not actually “sons” of Elohim; the idiom is a poetic way of describing their nature and relationship to God. The phrase indicates their supernatural nature, and their submission to God as the sovereign Lord."

Angels are called "sons of God"......humans are called the "sons of men"...even Jesus was referred to as the "Son of Man" in his human form.

Add 1+1 = angels which sinned were human, not divine angels.

Sorry that argues with everything in Genesis which gives us the reason for the fall of man....the devil was a fallen angel since no other humans existed at that time. Your math is a bit sus I'm afraid. Just stick with the

as they are written.

So now you have a challenge - find out where in Scripture the word aggeloi relates to humans...can you do that?

A challenge?

No contest...only one of us has the sword of the spirit.....your sword is more like a wet fish.

According to Strongs Concordance, regarding the word "angelos"......."In the Scriptures, both of the Old Testament and of the New Testament, one of that host of heavenly spirits that, according alike to Jewish and Christian opinion, wait upon the monarch of the universe, and are sent by him to earth, now to execute his purposes (Matthew 4:6, 11; Matthew 28:2; Mark 1:13; Luke 16:22; Luke 22:43"

There are only two references to "angelos" in the Greek scriptures, as human messengers.....one such being John the Baptist....and there is also a reference in James 2:25 concerning the messengers that Rahab hid and secretly allowed to escape, both are clearly translated as "messenger".....otherwise it always means angels. Try again.

I'm guessing you cannot from your constant irritable tone!

The irritability of my tone is the result of you telling me constantly that only you have it all right.....when scripture is provided to show that you have it all wrong, all I hear is the condescending tone of your posts.....condemning truth and trying to substitute falsehood. When asked where these ideas come from you never answer.....Your posts make no scriptural sense. Identify the source of your beliefs.

Otherwise prove from the text its speaking to divine angels.

Or be honest!

I have always been honest. You need to study scripture more carefully because the things you say are so out of line with what the Bible teaches it has no resemblance.....nor is there any coherent story about God's purpose in our being here. The role of the angels is just one area where you seem to have no idea of what you're talking about.

 

[face2face]

There are only two references to "angelos" in the Greek scriptures, as human messengers.....one such being John the Baptist....and there is also a reference in James 2:25 concerning the messengers that Rahab hid and secretly allowed to escape, both are clearly translated as "messenger".....otherwise it always means angels. Try again.

Okay be gone with the garb...this is all we needed from you.
Well done!
For accuracy Matthew 11:10; Luke 7:24, Luke 7:27; Luke 9:52; and James 2:25.
Now you need to prove to us from 2 Peter 2:4 the writer had divine beings in mind.

Don't run off to fabricate lies elsewhere. Stay in Peter's Epistle.

Do you remember how I tried to show you so many times about Biblical imagery - well, you will need to use what you learned all over - hope you have the spirit mind for it!

Also, while you're thinking about that, why bother to chain these angels, if as say, they can still exercise their dangerous power over men and women today?

Do you have another story to tell?

 

[face2face]

@Aunty Jane out of interest what type of chains do they use to restrain these divine messengers?

Would it be your local hardware type chain?

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Aunty Jane out of interest what type of chains do they use to restrain these divine messengers?

Would it be your local hardware type chain?

I'm tired of your silly games......and I am not interested in continuing on with this exchange.

Your posts just get more and more bizarre. Please leave me alone.

 

[face2face]

I'm tired of your silly games......and I am not interested in continuing on with this exchange.

Your posts just get more and more bizarre. Please leave me alone.

You haven't got a clue about what you believe.
That's evident for all to see.
F2f.

 

[quietthinker]

What Are we Getting Saved From?
I'll say it again.....our own futility!

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

What are you running from? Please identify your brotherhood...that is the open and honest thing to do. I am not afraid or ashamed to identify my brotherhood...so why are you?


O my goodness....are you serious? The first sinner was an angel...identified as the "covering cherub" in the garden of Eden in Ezekiel. He was perfect until he chose to sin, entertaining grand ideas about himself and wanting the worship accorded to God for himself. Why do you think he tempted Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world" if he would just do "one act of worship" to him.

Angels cannot die in the same way that humans do since they require no external means to keep living....but the Bible clearly states that satan and his demons will end up in "the lake of fire" which is a place Jesus said was "prepared for them"...a place where wicked humans and angels will end up....it means being taken completely out of existence. So angels can die if God executes them.

Since Adam and his wife were the first humans, who else was there to tempt them? A snake?

Or a spirit creature who presented himself as a serpent and offered the woman something that made her think that what she had could be better?

You step outside of scripture when you claim that satan wasn't a fallen angel. He had clear access to heaven and the other angels in God's presence. No human can do that.

In Job chs 1 & 2 it says..."Now the day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord—and Satan also arrived among them". (ESV)
The footnote to the expression "sons of God" says....
"The “sons of God” in the OT is generally taken to refer to angels. They are not actually “sons” of Elohim; the idiom is a poetic way of describing their nature and relationship to God. The phrase indicates their supernatural nature, and their submission to God as the sovereign Lord."

Angels are called "sons of God"......humans are called the "sons of men"...even Jesus was referred to as the "Son of Man" in his human form.


Sorry that argues with everything in Genesis which gives us the reason for the fall of man....the devil was a fallen angel since no other humans existed at that time. Your math is a bit sus I'm afraid. Just stick with the

as they are written.


A challenge?

No contest...only one of us has the sword of the spirit.....your sword is more like a wet fish.

According to Strongs Concordance, regarding the word "angelos"......."In the Scriptures, both of the Old Testament and of the New Testament, one of that host of heavenly spirits that, according alike to Jewish and Christian opinion, wait upon the monarch of the universe, and are sent by him to earth, now to execute his purposes (Matthew 4:6, 11; Matthew 28:2; Mark 1:13; Luke 16:22; Luke 22:43"

There are only two references to "angelos" in the Greek scriptures, as human messengers.....one such being John the Baptist....and there is also a reference in James 2:25 concerning the messengers that Rahab hid and secretly allowed to escape, both are clearly translated as "messenger".....otherwise it always means angels. Try again.


The irritability of my tone is the result of you telling me constantly that only you have it all right.....when scripture is provided to show that you have it all wrong, all I hear is the condescending tone of your posts.....condemning truth and trying to substitute falsehood. When asked where these ideas come from you never answer.....Your posts make no scriptural sense. Identify the source of your beliefs.


I have always been honest. You need to study scripture more carefully because the things you say are so out of line with what the Bible teaches it has no resemblance.....nor is there any coherent story about God's purpose in our being here. The role of the angels is just one area where you seem to have no idea of what you're talking about.

That last sentence has been deeply obvious regarding their postings for some time.
Theyre here to mock and ridicule for as long as they're given opportunity.

Ever tried to have an intelligent conversation with a wall? Fruitless,right?
Exactly.

 

[bbyrd009]

i think personifying “spirits” is maybe not a very good idea, regardless of how popular it is. Names had meaning then, that we disregard now, seems to me.

Yes, Yah is said to have a “hand,” and we speak of “the hand of God,” but is there a literal hand?

I would rather be on top of the cliff than trying to climb it and constantly losing my footing as the earth moves under my feet.
Faith is not something like quicksand....it has to be rock solid. (Hebrews 11:1)
How long can you survive in the quicksand of doubt?

the illusion of knowledge is a comforting thing, i guess…i understand
He who says that he knows anything does not yet know it as he ought
Wisdom is hidden from the wise (in their own eyes)

 

[bbyrd009]

What Are we Getting Saved From?
I'll say it again.....our own futility!

dont we have passages that more or less express the concept of being “saved” from whatever calamity might arise in the moment? They might be expressed in flowery/poetic language, but it seems to me that that is more or less what they are expressing anyway.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

i think personifying “spirits” is maybe not a very good idea, regardless of how popular it is. Names had meaning then, that we disregard now, seems to me.

Yes, Yah is said to have a “hand,” and we speak of “the hand of God,” but is there a literal hand?

the illusion of knowledge is a comforting thing, i guess…i understand
He who says that he knows anything does not yet know it as he ought

The next verse says, But the one who loves God is known by God.

You don't know that chapter is Paul's warning against idols.

 

[bbyrd009]

The next verse says, But the one who loves God is known by God.

You don't know that chapter is Paul's warning against idols.

guess im missing your point, sorry; it plainly says “anything,” and i cant imagine how you might think you know what i dont know

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

guess im missing your point, sorry

OK.

 

[keithr]

There is a lot to cover here so I'll break it up....

Yes, this discussion has become a bit like the universe - it's forever expanding!;) I'm even going to have to split this response!

Yes, there is, and all must belong to that faith and be baptized as a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ......but there is after that, an anointing with holy spirit for those of the elect, who are chosen from among those dedicated and baptized disciples, for a specific role.....to be "kings and priests".......so for whom do they act in these capacities? Kings do not rule one another and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties......there are no sinners in heaven so this explains why these alone are given the "first resurrection". (Ephesians 2:6)

Paul's letter is addressed to all the saints in Ephesus, not just to a select sub-section of saints. He wrote, Ephesians 2:4-8 (WEB):

(4) But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us,
(5) even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
(6) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
(7) that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus;
(8) for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,​

He doesn't say that God raised up some of us to sit with God in Jesus Christ. The "us" applies to all Christians.

The elect become "a new creation" as Paul stated. (2 Corinthians 5:17) They alone are flesh and blood humans who die, and upon their resurrection will be transformed into spirit beings. That is what being "born again" means.....a new birth in a new body.

Again, Pauls says, 2 Corinthians 5:17 (WEB):

(17) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.​

Any and all Christians have been begotten as new creature in Christ. 1 John 5:1 (ASV):

(1) Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: ...​

Yes, anointed with holy spirit which takes place after their baptism in water. For the elect, there are two baptisms.

No, we've already established that there is just "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5). Peter preached, Acts 2:38 (WEB):

(38) Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.​

The Holy Spirit is not reserved for just a tiny fraction of Christians.

[To be continued.]

 

[keithr]

[Continuing...]

Romans 6:3...
"Or do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death."
This is a baptism that is only for the elect.

Again, Paul said "all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death" (WEB). Christ's death was a sacrifical death. Christian's, once baptised, have the merit of Jesus' sacrifice applied to them, so that their sins are forgiven and they are reckoned to have eternal life. None live eternally from that point though, because they are under a covenant to sacrifice their lives also, as Jesus sacrificed his - they are immersed into Jesus' death. As God said, in Psalms 50:5 (WEB):

(5) “Gather my saints together to me, those who have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.”​

There were two sacrifices in the Old Testament types, made on the Day of Atonement - a bull, representing the sacrifice of Jesus, and a goat, representing the sacrifice of the body members of Christ (Christians). On that day the High Priest would provide a young bullock as a sin offering, and the people of Israel would provide two young goats for a sin offering. The High Priest would sacrifice the bullock for himself and for his household. The death of the bullock typified the death of Jesus, who offered up himself as a sin offering. Jesus was both the anointed High Priest of God and the sacrifice. In the type the High Priest applies the merit of his sacrifice (by sprinkling the blood of the bullock on the mercy seat) for himself and his household as atonement for sins, where he himself represented Jesus and his household (the tribe of Levi - priests and servants of the priests) represented the Church (priests) and the Great Multitude of believers who come out of the Great Tribulation (servants of the priests). The name Levi means “joined to” (Genesis 29:34), just as the Church will be joined to Jesus as his bride.

In the antitype the merit of Jesus’ sacrifice, his own blood, is applied to the believers in Jesus, who will become the antitypical Royal Priesthood (the Church) and servants of the “household of faith”. Note that the whole merit of Jesus’ sacrifice is applied to the believers in Christ only – it is not applied to the rest of the world. Jesus’ sacrifice was a ransom for all, but it has not yet been applied to all - “Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time” (1 Timothy 2:6).

After the priest sacrificed the bullock he then sacrificed one of the goats in the same way – the bullock and the goat were treated alike, with the blood of the goat also being sprinkled on the mercy seat. Note that these are two distinct sin-offering sacrifices – the bullock, supplied by the priest, and the goat, supplied by the people. In the antitype during this Gospel Age there are also two sin-offerings – Jesus and his Church, his Body. The bullock was sacrificed as a sin offering for the priest and his household, whereas the goat was sacrificed as a sin offering for the people. The bullock represented Jesus’ sacrifice of his own life, whereas the goat represents the sacrifice of the Church – the sacrifice of our lives. The merit of Jesus’ sacrifice has been applied to the Church (the antitypical Royal Priesthood and household of faith), and the Church must now follow Jesus’ example and sacrifice their lives also. This is the Covenant of Sacrifice that we make when we become baptised into Jesus’ death. We have had Jesus’ sacrificial merit applied to us, so that our sins are atoned for and we are justified and entitled to eternal life as perfect humans. However, we only receive this justification on condition that we covenant to sacrifice that right to life, just as our Lord Jesus sacrificed his right to eternal life as a human. In the type the sacrifice of the goat was for the people (the Israelites), and in the antitype the sacrifice of the Church’s right to human life is a sacrifice for the people - the rest of humankind.

The whole merit of Jesus’ sacrifice was applied to the Church, so the Church must sacrifice their lives in order that the merit may be returned and applied to the rest of mankind. This is an ongoing process during the Gospel Age. At the end of the Gospel Age all of the merit of Jesus’ sacrifice will have been returned so that it can then be applied to the rest of mankind. The merit of Jesus’ sacrifice is appropriated to the Church, the elect, in order that we can have the privilege of joining our Lord Jesus as his “members”, to “become the sons of God” (John 1:12) and so that we will be entitled to be sharers in Jesus’ inheritance. As sharers of his sacrifice we enable his merit to be passed on to natural Israel and the world through the New Covenant.

Hence Paul wrote of the faithful Old Testament Israelites, “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect” (Hebrews 11:39-40). He is saying that the faithful Old Testament Israelites would receive a “better resurrection” (verse 35) as a result of their faithfulness, that is they would be resurrected as perfect human beings immediately, rather than being raised still imperfect and then having to be restored to perfection during Christ’s Millennial Kingdom. However, they, and the rest of mankind, will have to wait until all of the Church has completed their sacrifice before Jesus’ sacrificial merit can be applied to them and they can be resurrected.

The apostle Paul, when speaking of the animal sacrifices and the New Covenant, said, “It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these” (Hebrews 9:23). These “better sacrifices” are the sacrifice of Jesus, the Christ Head, and the members of his Church, the Christ Body. The bullock and goat were the only animal sacrifices that were burnt outside of the camp (symbolising rejection by the world), hence Paul said, “Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach” (Hebrews 13:12-13).

Note that two goats were supplied by the people, and one of them was chosen for sacrifice by casting lots. This indicated that God does not arbitrarily choose which consecrated saints are to become members of the body of Christ – it is up to us to make our calling and election sure. The Lord’s goat lays down its life sacrificially, willingly, while the other goat becomes the scapegoat and is not sacrificed but it is sent into the wilderness to die unwillingly. The scapegoat is a type of the consecrated Christians who fail to fulfil the conditions of their sacrifice. These Christians fail to fully, willingly, sacrifice their earthy rights and their own will, and still seek the honour and favour of the world. They have their flesh destroyed under divine providence, that the spirit may be saved. They have been begotten of the Holy Spirit and cannot reassume their earthly rights and restitution blessings, so they cannot be resurrected as human beings, nor can they be resurrected with the immortal divine nature. They will be resurrected as mortal spirit beings, similar to the angels, and will serve God in his temple, though they will not be members of that symbolic temple which is the Christ.

“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion [partnership or participation] of the blood of Christ?” (1 Corinthians 10:16).

This is quite a complicated subject!

 

[face2face]

I'm tired of your silly games......and I am not interested in continuing on with this exchange.

Your posts just get more and more bizarre. Please leave me alone.

I spell it out super clear.

You believe angels can sin but unfortunately they dont have the nature that allows temptation because they do not possess flesh and blood and are not double minded - they dont have a carnal mind only the mind of the Spirit.

Jesus said "For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven"

Paul said "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

So even in two succinct verses we can show your fallen angel theology is false.

If all Angels behold the very face of God and all Angels are ministering spirits who only serve those wanting to be saved where is there room for divine beings who sin in heaven?

Also, if an Angel could sin, the sentence of death would be passed, however they would require a nature which is condemned to die, like yours! They dont have such a nature because they have God's divine nature.

I get this presents a conumdrum for you, because you have attached non biblical notions to words and fabricated a whole story around them, which just isn't real.

So what of 2 Peter 2:4 ?

but sent them to hell (the grave), putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

In other words these messengers that sinned are dead and buried and awaiting judgement.

The imagery has got you again and because you cant decipher it, you fall into error.

My mockery of your belief suggesting you believe Angels are actually chained is nonsensical - how are they chained? Who chained them and where are they kept? And if chained they are powerless so whats the point?

I am sure you will quietly read this and in time a hint of reason might present - a little doubt maybe - some curiosity could kick in, causing you to look at these challenging text for yourself.

May God bless you searching for Deuteronomy 29:29

F2F

 

[face2face]

Note that two goats were supplied by the people, and one of them was chosen for sacrifice by casting lots. This indicated that God does not arbitrarily choose which consecrated saints are to become members of the body of Christ – it is up to us to make our calling and election sure. The Lord’s goat lays down its life sacrificially, willingly, while the other goat becomes the scapegoat and is not sacrificed but it is sent into the wilderness to die unwillingly. The scapegoat is a type of the consecrated Christians who fail to fulfil the conditions of their sacrifice. These Christians fail to fully, willingly, sacrifice their earthy rights and their own will, and still seek the honour and favour of the world. They have their flesh destroyed under divine providence, that the spirit may be saved. They have been begotten of the Holy Spirit and cannot reassume their earthly rights and restitution blessings, so they cannot be resurrected as human beings, nor can they be resurrected with the immortal divine nature. They will be resurrected as mortal spirit beings, similar to the angels, and will serve God in his temple, though they will not be members of that symbolic temple which is the Christ.

I've never heard that interpration before keithr. I am not sure that it's in keeping with the Prophetic Word.

The Hebrew word is azazel, "goat" from a root denoting strength, and ezal meaning "to go away, to disappear". The Jews viewed this goat to signify The Goat of Departure, or The Goat of Removal. It represented one that has the strength to bear away the "sins" to be figuratively placed upon it.

If you look at Leviticus 16:10

"But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat" or Goat of Departure "Shall be presented alive before Yahweh"

You see both goats are prophetic of Christ's work. Both in life and in death he glorified the Father (John 17:4-5).

This goat was preserved alive, and presented to Yahweh to foreshadow the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ after he had successfully completed his function as a sin offering.

(That's a really important point if you didn't note the order!)

Hence Paul wrote: "Jesus our Lord . . . was delivered for our offenses (Goat offering), and was raised again for our justification (scapegoat)" (Romans 4:25).

It's really important when interpreting the Law you keep in mind the Work of God in Christ which it foreshadowed.

The type is a provision of a living advocate on behalf of Yahweh's people, as is provided in The Lord Jesus Christ. The resurrection of the Lord witnessed to the efficacy of the atonement accomplished by his sacrifice (Romans 1:1-4)

In his service
F2F