Western Trinitarians, do not follow the early church teaching.

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Bruce-Leiter

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Here we have Dr Beau Branson, Eastern Orthodox, who explains that the early church taught that the western understanding only developed after Augustine of Hippo brought into the church new doctrines such as the Egalitarian Trinity as opposed to the Monarchial Trinitarianism of such as Gregory of Nyssa.


The basis of it is that the Father is the Monarchy, God the Creator and it is through Him that the Son, His Word, and the Holy Spirit are brought forth and are divine and not creatures.

There is also a series on YouTube on the Monarchy, where he goes into it in more depth, which I have watched the first two episodes. You must find each following below as it will not automatically more on.

I believe that this issue is urgent for today, and will, in my estimation be the downfall of Christianity, as believers today have scant Biblical understanding as taught in the early church, and especially when the Faith is coming under attack by Unitarians who rightly pick out the illogicalities of the western version.

I believe it will lead to the one world religion we all have heard of but not yet, how it will happen.
Where in the Bible do you find the teaching that the Father "brought forth" the second and third Persons of the Trinity?

Just face it. The doctrine of the Trinity, which is presented clearly in the Gospel of John, was re-discovered by Augustine. It is a profound mystery that eastern and western Christians cannot understand at all well by their rational minds.

It is that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the three Persons of the ONE, mysterious God revealed to us in the Bible, especially by the Apostle John. We need to accept the mysteries about God that we can't fathom.

I don't know why you depend on people instead of the Bible for your theological truth.
 

Bruce-Leiter

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OK I get what you said but I have been reading the rebuttals here. I need to grasp the Orthodox view before I go on to the Unitarian in depth.

@GodsGrace
I suggest that you read through the Gospel of John. He presents three Persons of God--the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. And then search for the term "one God" in all of Scripture. You will see the Trinity emerging as its truth. The Trinity is a mystery that human minds cannot solve with our puny minds that cannot reach into the depths of our great God. We need to humble ourselves to accept the mysteries of God, who is far beyond us (Isaiah 55:8-9).
 

Hepzibah

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Where in the Bible do you find the teaching that the Father "brought forth" the second and third Persons of the Trinity?

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (John 15:26)

The Father is from eternity unbegotten, the Son begotten:

"According to Saint Gregory the Theologian, trying to go further to comprehend unbegotten-ness (Father), begotten-ness (Son), or procession (Holy Spirit) leads to insanity. Therefore the Church traditionally approaches God in divine mystery (and apophatically), content to encounter Him rather than comprehend Him (for it is impossible for the created to comprehend the ineffable Creator)." Holy Trinity - OrthodoxWiki

Just face it. The doctrine of the Trinity, which is presented clearly in the Gospel of John, was re-discovered by Augustine. It is a profound mystery that eastern and western Christians cannot understand at all well by their rational minds.
It was the reason for the Nicene church council in 325.

It is indeed a profound mystery yet scripture gives us some understanding of it. The Orthodox church considers it not to be a subject open for debate.

It is that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the three Persons of the ONE, mysterious God revealed to us in the Bible, especially by the Apostle John. We need to accept the mysteries about God that we can't fathom.

I don't know why you depend on people instead of the Bible for your theological truth.

I do not believe anything that is not confirmed in scripture.
 

Hepzibah

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I suggest that you read through the Gospel of John. He presents three Persons of God--the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. And then search for the term "one God" in all of Scripture. You will see the Trinity emerging as its truth. The Trinity is a mystery that human minds cannot solve with our puny minds that cannot reach into the depths of our great God. We need to humble ourselves to accept the mysteries of God, who is far beyond us (Isaiah 55:8-9).
My oldest worn out Bible is 50 years old thank you.

I believe in the Trinity as three in one persons, all divine and as you have not bothered to take notice of my beliefs, I will not further converse with you unless you do thank you.
 

Rockerduck

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My oldest worn out Bible is 50 years old thank you.

I believe in the Trinity as three in one persons, all divine and as you have not bothered to take notice of my beliefs, I will not further converse with you unless you do thank you.
That bible would have to be the Scofield bible around 1967?
 

Hepzibah

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That bible would have to be the Scofield bible around 1967?
Oh now I think back, that was my second from 1976, totally worn out before I found out it was Dispensational. I did not depend on its notes though and ended up Reformed. My first was a Good News one in 1973, gifted by the couple who led me to the Lord, which I soon became fed up with.
 
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ProDeo

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The Father is from eternity unbegotten, the Son begotten:

Ps 2:7 - I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you.

I understand that verse as a prophecy fulfilled in Bethlehem.

I could be wrong.
 

Hepzibah

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Ps 2:7 - I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you.

I understand that verse as a prophecy fulfilled in Bethlehem.

I could be wrong.
I too thought that this was the begetting but think now it was when God the Father produced His Son in order to enter space and time and create all.
 

Bruce-Leiter

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But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (John 15:26)

The Father is from eternity unbegotten, the Son begotten:

"According to Saint Gregory the Theologian, trying to go further to comprehend unbegotten-ness (Father), begotten-ness (Son), or procession (Holy Spirit) leads to insanity. Therefore the Church traditionally approaches God in divine mystery (and apophatically), content to encounter Him rather than comprehend Him (for it is impossible for the created to comprehend the ineffable Creator)." Holy Trinity - OrthodoxWiki


It was the reason for the Nicene church council in 325.

It is indeed a profound mystery yet scripture gives us some understanding of it. The Orthodox church considers it not to be a subject open for debate.



I do not believe anything that is not confirmed in scripture.
The problem with the KJV's (and apparently the Eastern Orthodox) translation of "only begotten") for Jesus is that they translated it that way by confusing two very similar, easily confused, Greek participles that mean "only begotten" (the mistaken one) and "one and only" or "unique" Son, the right translation.

The mystery of the Trinity is still present, but the idea of the Father "begetting" the Son is precluded. It doesn't have a basis in the Bible, but its removal takes one possible confusion away.
 

Bruce-Leiter

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I too thought that this was the begetting but think now it was when God the Father produced His Son in order to enter space and time and create all.
So, you believe the second Person of God always existed but joined humanity as Jesus the Son?
 

Verily

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The problem with the KJV's (and apparently the Eastern Orthodox) translation of "only begotten") for Jesus is that they translated it that way by confusing two very similar, easily confused, Greek participles that mean "only begotten" (the mistaken one) and "one and only" or "unique" Son, the right translation.
I used the KJV. In Genesis (for example with Isaac) it shows the two as being synonomous

Back here in the OT

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only H3173 son from me.

Yachiyd (adjective) H3173
  1. only, only one, solitary, one
    1. only, unique, one
    2. solitary
    3. (TWOT) only begotten son
      substantive
  2. one

And so regardless that Ishmael was a son of Abraham's (before Isaac) and had two sons, it was Isaac the LORD wanted (not the child of the flesh) but the son of the promise

But when comparing between the two places (where Isaac) is mentioned accordingly its written this way in the NT in the book of Hebrews (KJV) this way

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten G3439 son

Monogenes (adjective) G3439
  1. single of its kind, only
    1. used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
    2. used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God
The defnition given in the OT includes "only, unique and only begotten" used interchangeably between both places. So I never understood the big deal between the words since the definition equates them
 
J

Johann

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Yachiyd (adjective) H3173
  1. only, only one, solitary, one
    1. only, unique, one
    2. solitary
    3. (TWOT) only begotten son
      substantive
  2. one
Correct--

Lexicon Overview of יָחִיד (Yachid):
1. Basic Meaning:
Singular/Only:

Yachid denotes something or someone that is one-of-a-kind, only, or unique in nature. It is used to describe something irreplaceable or unmatched.

2. Forms and Morphology:
Masculine Singular: יָחִיד (yachid)
Feminine Singular: יְחִידָה (yechidah)

Plural Forms: Not attested, as the word implies singularity.

Key Usages in Scripture:
A. As "Only One" (Exclusivity):

Genesis 22:2:
“Take now thy son, thine only son (יָחִידְךָ, yachidkha), Isaac, whom thou lovest...”

In this context, yachid refers to Isaac as Abraham’s “only” or unique son (even though Abraham had other children, Isaac held a special, covenantal status).

Cross-reference: Hebrews 11:17 (interprets Isaac as the "only son" in terms of covenant).

Judges 11:34:
“...she was his only child (יְחִידָה, yechidah): beside her he had neither son nor daughter.”

This emphasizes the singularity of Jephthah's daughter, underscoring the depth of his vow’s consequences.

B. As "Beloved" or "Precious":

Psalm 22:20:
“Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling (יְחִידָתִי, yechidati) from the power of the dog.”
Here, yachid implies something deeply cherished or beloved, paralleling the preciousness of one’s life.

C. As "Lonely" or "Alone":

Psalm 25:16:
“Turn unto me, and have mercy upon me; for I am desolate (יָחִיד, yachid) and afflicted.”
The term here conveys a sense of being isolated, alone, or abandoned.

Semantic Range:
The semantic range of yachid includes:

Singularity: Being the only one of its kind.
Uniqueness: Special or incomparable in nature.
Preciousness: Cherished and beloved.
Loneliness/Isolation: A solitary or forsaken condition.

Etymology and Related Words:
Root: י-ח-ד (y-ch-d), meaning to unite or make one.

Related terms:
יָחַד (yachad): Together, united.
אֶחָד (echad): One, a more common term for numerical or conceptual oneness.

Contrast: Yachid carries the nuance of exclusivity or uniqueness, whereas echad often signifies unity or singularity in a collective sense.

Key Theological Insights:
1. Monotheism and Uniqueness:
While yachid is not used to describe God directly in the Hebrew Bible, the idea of God as unique and one-of-a-kind resonates with its meaning. God's uniqueness is more commonly expressed using the term אֶחָד (echad), as seen in

Deuteronomy 6:4:
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one (אֶחָד, echad)."

2. Christological Connections:

The Septuagint (LXX) often translates yachid with ἀγαπητός (agapetos), meaning "beloved" or "dearly loved." This word is used in the New Testament to describe Jesus:

“This is My beloved (ἀγαπητός) Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:17).

Thus, the yachid status of Isaac in Genesis 22 foreshadows Jesus as the uniquely beloved Son of God.

3. Sacrificial Overtones:
The yachid concept appears in sacrificial contexts, such as Genesis 22 and Psalm 22. In these instances, it prefigures the ultimate sacrifice of the Messiah, who is the "only" and beloved Son offered for humanity.
Modern Hebrew Usage:
In modern Hebrew, yachid retains its biblical meanings but is also used in everyday contexts:

Yachid: Individual or single.
Yechedi: Singular (grammatical term).

Couldn't resist @Verily.

Johann.
 
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Verily

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Ps 2:7 - I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you.

I understand that verse as a prophecy fulfilled in Bethlehem.

I could be wrong.
No, this one was when he was raised up here

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
 
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Verily

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Correct--

Lexicon Overview of יָחִיד (Yachid):
1. Basic Meaning:
Singular/Only:

Yachid denotes something or someone that is one-of-a-kind, only, or unique in nature. It is used to describe something irreplaceable or unmatched.

2. Forms and Morphology:
Masculine Singular: יָחִיד (yachid)
Feminine Singular: יְחִידָה (yechidah)

Plural Forms: Not attested, as the word implies singularity.

Key Usages in Scripture:
A. As "Only One" (Exclusivity):

Genesis 22:2:
“Take now thy son, thine only son (יָחִידְךָ, yachidkha), Isaac, whom thou lovest...”

In this context, yachid refers to Isaac as Abraham’s “only” or unique son (even though Abraham had other children, Isaac held a special, covenantal status).

Cross-reference: Hebrews 11:17 (interprets Isaac as the "only son" in terms of covenant).

Judges 11:34:
“...she was his only child (יְחִידָה, yechidah): beside her he had neither son nor daughter.”

This emphasizes the singularity of Jephthah's daughter, underscoring the depth of his vow’s consequences.

B. As "Beloved" or "Precious":

Psalm 22:20:
“Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling (יְחִידָתִי, yechidati) from the power of the dog.”
Here, yachid implies something deeply cherished or beloved, paralleling the preciousness of one’s life.

C. As "Lonely" or "Alone":

Psalm 25:16:
“Turn unto me, and have mercy upon me; for I am desolate (יָחִיד, yachid) and afflicted.”
The term here conveys a sense of being isolated, alone, or abandoned.

Semantic Range:
The semantic range of yachid includes:

Singularity: Being the only one of its kind.
Uniqueness: Special or incomparable in nature.
Preciousness: Cherished and beloved.
Loneliness/Isolation: A solitary or forsaken condition.

Etymology and Related Words:
Root: י-ח-ד (y-ch-d), meaning to unite or make one.

Related terms:
יָחַד (yachad): Together, united.
אֶחָד (echad): One, a more common term for numerical or conceptual oneness.

Contrast: Yachid carries the nuance of exclusivity or uniqueness, whereas echad often signifies unity or singularity in a collective sense.

Key Theological Insights:
1. Monotheism and Uniqueness:
While yachid is not used to describe God directly in the Hebrew Bible, the idea of God as unique and one-of-a-kind resonates with its meaning. God's uniqueness is more commonly expressed using the term אֶחָד (echad), as seen in

Deuteronomy 6:4:
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one (אֶחָד, echad)."

2. Christological Connections:

The Septuagint (LXX) often translates yachid with ἀγαπητός (agapetos), meaning "beloved" or "dearly loved." This word is used in the New Testament to describe Jesus:

“This is My beloved (ἀγαπητός) Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:17).
Thus, the yachid status of Isaac in Genesis 22 foreshadows Jesus as the uniquely beloved Son of God.

3. Sacrificial Overtones:
The yachid concept appears in sacrificial contexts, such as Genesis 22 and Psalm 22. In these instances, it prefigures the ultimate sacrifice of the Messiah, who is the "only" and beloved Son offered for humanity.
Modern Hebrew Usage:
In modern Hebrew, yachid retains its biblical meanings but is also used in everyday contexts:

Yachid: Individual or single.
Yechedi: Singular (grammatical term).

Couldn't resist @Verily.

Johann.
You come in so handy Johannpheart
 
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GodsGrace

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Indeed, and making newcomers qualify what they mean by Christian concerning the trinity, is obviously missing here.
I can tell you that it's not really practical to force members into stating whether or not they're Christian...
because, basically, we all think we are. It's a problem for these forums.

Amen apart from your previous statement that the saved are taught by the Spirit on the trinity and therefore I say that logically cannot be saved if they teach otherwise.
I repeat many times that it's not doctrine that will save us but our belief in God, our obedience to Him, and - if we know about Jesus - our adherence to His commandments, which are not many and are not burdensome.

But yes, if we define ourselves as Christian - we must accept the Trinity.
I don't think it will take a long time to understand fully what the Orthodox mean exactly when they differ on the trinity, which they indeed do. I already know what the western view is as I held to it. If we (the west) are getting it wrong, which is my point, we will not be able to withstand this attack that is coming, and already is. But thanks.
Been away and have missed a lot...will go through.
Just want to say that the biggest attach is from those that believe Jesus is a man and not God.
This belief is extreme.
They did know, as can be seen in their Divine Liturgy (service) and by writings. Action had to step up later though to combat heresies and have agreement over a name for the doctrine.
:gd
Agreed that there is a mystery on how God and man could be joined. But here is plenty in the scriptures to tell us that, in the beginning, that is to say, at the point of creation, Jesus had come into being. Only the Father was eternal, before this age came into being, and from whom proceedeth the Son.
Actually H,,,Jesus did not come into being.
He always was.
If God CREATED Jesus the he would be a man, as many proclaim.

IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD,,,,,,,
AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

To WORD is the LOGOS of God.
God always had His logos.

Absolultely. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father, then He is equal to the Son, (but not the Father the source) but if He proceeds from the Son as well, then He is not equal. We can see that played out in the western church where the HS has not had the same attention.
All 3 are co-equal.
I just believe that the Holy Spirit is the least understood.

and so little time!
Right!
 

Hepzibah

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I can tell you that it's not really practical to force members into stating whether or not they're Christian...
because, basically, we all think we are. It's a problem for these forums.

Believing in the Trinity could be the requisite for taking part in the debate forums at least.
I repeat many times that it's not doctrine that will save us but our belief in God, our obedience to Him, and - if we know about Jesus - our adherence to His commandments, which are not many and are not burdensome.

But yes, if we define ourselves as Christian - we must accept the Trinity.

Been away and have missed a lot...will go through.
Just want to say that the biggest attach is from those that believe Jesus is a man and not God.
This belief is extreme.

:gd

Actually H,,,Jesus did not come into being.
He always was.
If God CREATED Jesus the he would be a man, as many proclaim.

IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD,,,,,,,
AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

To WORD is the LOGOS of God.
God always had His logos.


All 3 are co-equal.
I just believe that the Holy Spirit is the least understood.


Right!
Scripture says that the Father is not begotten but Jesus is, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (not the Son). God is spirit and has no beginning yet His Son 'eminates' from Him as the early church puts it.

I believe that the 'beginning' is the beginning of time and space ie creation and this is where the Word comes in, true God of true God but not the Father.

My understanding is that the Son had to come into being so that God, as a spirit, could enter into time and space, be the catalyst of creation and appear in the OT and then in the NT as man/God. We cannot understand the h0w, but are given enough for us to work on.

God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal.