Were Jesus's brothers born of another woman?

[Verily]

None of these quotes are from Paul, except Eph. 3:9 -- which doesn't support Christ's divinity.

The apostles Paul wrote, Ephesians

Ephes 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

 

[Matthias]

Thats creative but doesnt it just reduce Christ to a concept before he came into this world?

The technical name for it is “notional preexistence” - people, places, things, events preexisting in the foreknowledge of God.

In Jewish monotheism, Christ existed in the foreknowledge of God before he was miraculously begotten in the womb of the virgin. Recall the Holy Spirit hovering over the water in Genesis (the creation of the heavens and the earth) and think about what Luke writes in Luke 1:35 (the beginning of the new creation).

To answer your question - Does it reduce Christ to a concept before he came into this world? - Yes.

Especially since by him God made the worlds.

If you’ll quote the exact passage that you are alluding to (is it Ephesians 3:9?) we can walk through it together.

As a Jewish monotheist I believe that Yahweh created alone, by himself, not by the agency of anyone else.

Or am I still not gettting you? I am not very good at this.

Based on the question you asked, I think you are understanding me.

 

[Verily]

The apostles Paul wrote, Ephesians

Ephes 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

1 Cr 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I don't see how in everything that is seen and unseen how un-divinity could create all things.

 

[Verily]

The technical name for it is “notional preexistence” - people, places, things, events preexisting in the foreknowledge of God.

In Jewish monotheism, Christ existed in the foreknowledge of God before he was miraculously begotten in the womb of the virgin. Recall the Holy Spirit hovering over the water in Genesis (the creation of the heavens and the earth) and think about what Luke writes in Luke 1:35 (the beginning of the new creation).

To answer your question - Does it reduce Christ to a concept before he came into this world? - Yes.

I dont believe that Christ was just a figment of his imagination, for example it also says

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me

If you’ll quote the exact passage that you are alluding to (is it Ephesians 3:9?) we can walk through it together.

Matthias I am not going to walk through these things with you that deny the pre existance of Christ who was come down from heaven to do His will. Not seeing it.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

As a Jewish monotheist I believe that Yahweh created alone, by himself, not by the agency of anyone else.

Based on the question you asked, I think you are understanding me.

You can start a thread on that I may or may not participate, been up for 38 hours I may feel like it when I get a good nights sleep.

 

[RedFan]

The apostles Paul wrote, Ephesians

Ephes 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Like I said . . . this verse doesn't support Christ's divinity.

 

[Matthias]

I dont believe that Christ was just a figment of his imagination …

Of course you don’t. I believe he preexisted in the mind of his God and my God.

for example it also says

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me

You’re speaking with a Jewish monotheist and you don’t care about how a Jewish monotheist understands a book written by a Jewish monotheist.

Matthias I am not going to walk through these things with you that deny the pre existance of Christ …

Nothing in scripture denies the preexistence of Christ.

As I’ve explained, I believe in the preexistence of Christ. The difference between us is that you believe his preexistence was literal and I believe it was notional (which is also called “ideal” by theologians.)

… who was come down from heaven to do His will.

You aren’t thinking like a Jewish monotheist. James is a Jewish monotheist and he wrote that all good things come down from heaven. You reject the idiom that my theology is based on.

Not seeing it.

It’s a simple Jewish paradigm.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus praying to his God and my God, asking his Father to give him the glory which he had stored up with his Father even before he was begotten. Another Jewish concept -> glory in prospect.

You can start a thread on that I may or may not participate, been up for 38 hours I may feel like it when I get a good nights sleep.

I’ve already posted on it in other threads. I’ll show you where if you decide you want to learn how a Jewish monotheist thinks.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Since Eph 3:9.....has been offered, I thought it beneficial to take a look at this and the preceding verse….
The apostle Paul wrote….
“Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ”. (KJV 21)

“God gave his grace to me, the least of all God’s people, to preach the good news about the immeasurable riches of Christ to the Gentiles. God sent me to reveal the secret plan that had been hidden since the beginning of time by God, who created everything.” (CEB)

“To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things”. (NASB)

“To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God, who created all things”. (ESV)

So who “created all things”? Was it Jesus Christ or God? Those who base their beliefs on the KJV, have a different slant on who created what....

What is “the beginning of the world”…”hid in God” or “for the ages”, or as the CEB puts it “the beginning of time”?....is it referring to the creation of the planet, the Universe.....or the creation of the world (kosmos) of sinful mankind descended from Adam?
When and why was there a plan that included sending Jesus Christ as a savior and redeemer?……wasn’t everything God created, perfect?

Was a savior ever featured in God’s original plan? Was there mention of him to Adam in the garden?
Or were his services as redeemer only required after Adam’s decision to join his disobedient wife in rebellion?
When was the first prophesy mentioned? (Gen 3:15) Was there any way to know what this prophesy meant at the time it was spoken? That was the “mystery hidden in God” and not revealed until the “seed” of Abraham came, right on time.

There was plan A, which depended on human obedience to what God had commanded....but this was interfered with by a rebel spirit, with disobedience then causing the implementation of plan B.
Only plan B included the redemptive act of Jesus Christ in rescuing Adam’s children from the sin they inherited from him, resulting in death. Sin was the only cause of death ever mentioned to him. Therefore, if Adam had not sinned, he never would have died, and Christ would never have needed to come to earth to save the human race that descended from him.

At the time of Adam’s creation Jesus Christ the man, did not exist. He would not come into the world for thousands of years....and it has been thousands of years again since he left....what is that telling us about time from God’s perspective?

The pre-human existence of the man Jesus Christ cannot be denied in Scripture, but in what form did he exist, and what was his relationship to the Creator? How does God beget God? The pre-human Jesus was “before all things”....fully involved in the creation of everything else. (Col 1:15-17)

Jesus is not Yahweh, but the Son of Yahweh. The Son serves the interests of his God and Father, even in heaven. He plays various roles, and is given names in those roles, and at the completion of his earthly mission he was elevated in status and given a new name.

“Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.“ (Phil 2:5-11 NASB)

Most people read right over what that passage says…..
”existing in the form of God”….what “form” does God have? The Bible tells us that “God is a spirit”, (John 4:24) therefore all inhabitants of the heavenly realm are spirits….the Father, the Son and all God’s angels are spirits.
After taking on the likeness of flesh and blood, Jesus “became obedient to the point of death”….so, to whom was he obedient? Himself?
For his faithfulness to death he was rewarded with exaltation….can God exalt himself? He is already “the Most High over all the earth”. (Psalm 83:18) How can he have a name higher than his God? There is already no one higher.
Bowing the knee to Jesus is a mark of respect, not worship…all the glory goes to his Father, not to himself.
Confessing Jesus as “Lord” is not elevating him to the same status as his Creator. (Rev 3:14)

I cannot imagine God having to do all that to himself….

 

[Verily]

Of course you don’t. I believe he preexisted in the mind of his God and my God.

Then we do not have much to talk about

You’re speaking with a Jewish monotheist and you don’t care about how a Jewish monotheist understands a book written by a Jewish monotheist.

Rabbi Shmuley Boteach is a well-known American rabbi, author, and media host who embodies the principles of Jewish monotheism as a search come up on his beliefs and I do not care how he understands anything. Him and/or his daughter have a kosher adult sex toy shop in Tel aviv.

I would never think to ask about whats on his mind or how he thinks.

You aren’t thinking like a Jewish monotheist.

I do not want to think like one.

James is a Jewish monotheist and he wrote that all good things come down from heaven. You reject the idiom that my theology is based on.

I know what James wrote but I do not know anything about you and your theology or whatever an idiom is.

It’s a simple Jewish paradigm.

Jesus praying to his God and my God, asking his Father to give him the glory which he had stored up with his Father even before he was begotten. Another Jewish concept -> glory in prospect.

I’ve already posted on it in other threads. I’ll show you where if you decide you want to learn how a Jewish monotheist thinks.

Thanks, I'll pass on this.

 

[Matthias]

Then we do not have much to talk about

You initiated the conversation, to my surprise. Ending it is fine.

Rabbi Shmuley Boteach is a well-known American rabbi, author, and media host who embodies the principles of Jewish monotheism as a search come up on his beliefs and I do not care how he understands anything. Him and/or his daughter have a kosher adult sex toy shop in Tel aviv.

I would never think to ask about whats on his mind or how he thinks.

He doesn’t believe Jesus of Nazareth - who is himself a Jewish monotheist - is the promised, raised up and sent Messiah. I do. His beliefs and practices aren’t compatible with those of primitive Christianity.

I do not want to think like one.

To properly understand a Jewish monotheist we have to think like a Jewish monotheist. Moses is a Jewish monotheist. The prophets are Jewish monotheists. The Messiah and the apostles are Jewish monotheists.

I know what James wrote but I do not know anything about you and your theology or whatever an idiom is.

You know I’m a Jewish monotheist who believes Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the living God and you know that you don’t understand Jewish monotheism and we both know that you have no interest in changing that. You can use a dictionary to find out what an idiom is, if you ever want to.

Thanks, I'll pass on this.

I appreciate you letting me know.

 

[Verily]

You initiated the conversation, to my surprise. Ending it is fine.

Post #871 you posted the same verse I posted up under it without tagging my post (thats fine, I understood what you were doing) even as you knew what you were doing and I commented on the same, since you seemed to want me to see it and say something (without trying to take up anymore of a conversation with me) and since I do not have you on ignore I responded briefly to the scripture as you posted it. In our previous posts when I wanted to shut that down I was indicating that I did not want to get into these long drawn out back and forths and into dissecting every little thing and branch out into an endless conversation into every other thing (that is all). I'm just not interested in that kind of back and forth, or discovering anyone elses mind (as you speak of it). I did respond to what you posted and somewhat agreeably to the verse you offered up under mine (though differently worded) and explained a little why. I just want to touch and go and not really get into being pulled into more than that, thats all. I just dont prefer doing that.

 

[Matthias]

Post #871 you posted the same verse I posted up under it without tagging my post (thats fine, I understood what you were doing) even as you knew what you were doing and I commented on the same, since you seemed to want me to see it and say something (without trying to take up anymore of a conversation with me) and since I do not have you on ignore I responded briefly to the scripture as you posted it. In our previous posts when I wanted to shut that down I was indicating that I did not want to get into these long drawn out back and forths and into dissecting every little thing and branch out into an endless conversation into every other thing (that is all). I'm just not interested in that kind of back and forth, or discovering anyone elses mind (as you speak of it). I did respond to what you posted and somewhat agreeably to the verse you offered up under mine (though differently worded) and explained a little why. I just want to touch and go and not really get into being pulled into more than that, thats all. I just dont prefer doing that.

You’ll find someone you’re more compatible conversing with. Go in peace.

 

[Verily]

Like I said . . . this verse doesn't support Christ's divinity.

Sorry I missed your reponse

How is someone not of divine nature utilized by God to create all things, even the worlds?

Also, are you only a follower of Paul and a rejector of the other apostles who walked with Jesus Christ in the flesh?

Like, is there something of great importance to you in respects to what Paul might have added verses what the others have written? Just curious, because its not a thing thats anything that bothers me one way or the other. Its important to you is why I ask.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not how I see it. If God rather than Luke was the author as you claim, there would have been zero need for Luke to investigate anything. Using an investigative journalist as an instrument makes no sense at all.

WRONG.
I don't claim it - GOD does.

YOU are at odds with God Himself.
His sacred Scripture informs us that every word of it is breathed-out from HIM..

Your rejection of God’s authorship is heresy . . .

2 Timothy 3:16
ALL SCRIPTURE is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

 

[RedFan]

Sorry I missed your reponse

How is someone not of divine nature utilized by God to create all things, even the worlds?

Also, are you only a follower of Paul and a rejector of the other apostles who walked with Jesus Christ in the flesh?

Like, is there something of great importance to you in respects to what Paul might have added verses what the others have written? Just curious, because its not a thing thats anything that bothers me one way or the other. Its important to you is why I ask.

So, as to the first point, God's spawning an instrumentality of creation -- the "efficient cause" of creation, to use Aristotle's classification of causes (which, by the way, Paul adopted in 1 Cor. 8:6 in his "from whom" and "by whom" distinction) -- does NOT require that the spawned cause actually BE God, or equal to God, or divine in any sense. I am a Trinitarian, and believe that Christ is indeed God -- but drawing that conclusion from the Son being installed as the Creator is utterly illogical. It just doesn't follow. You might a well argue that the earth is round because the sky is blue. Both are true, but it is galactically stupid to say that one follows form the other. Utterly illogical! I have other reasons for concluding that Christ is divine that have nothing to do with this creation agency stuff.

Second point: Paul has his views, the other NT writers have theirs. I don't reject any of their writings. But nor will I force them to be consistent on the question of the divinity of Christ. That wasn't what Paul was pushing. I am concerned to know what each of these writers was pushing. (Why wouldn't I be?)

 

[Verily]

So, as to the first point, God's spawning an instrumentality of creation -- the "efficient cause" of creation, to use Aristotle's classification of causes (which, by the way, Paul adopted in 1 Cor. 8:6 in his "from whom" and "by whom" distinction) -- does NOT require that the spawned cause actually BE God, or equal to God, or divine in any sense. I am a Trinitarian, and believe that Christ is indeed God -- but drawing that conclusion from the Son being installed as the Creator is utterly illogical. It just doesn't follow. You might a well argue that the earth is round because the sky is blue. Both are true, but it is galactically stupid to say that one follows form the other. Utterly illogcal! I hae other resosns for concluding that Crist is idvine that have nothing to do with this creation agency stuff.

Second point: Paul has his views, the oher NT writers have theirs. I don't reject any of their writings. But nor will I force them to be consistent on the question of the divinity of Christ. That wasn't what Paul was pushing. I am concerned to know what each of these writers was pushing. (Why wouldn't I be?)

Redfan I honestly don't know how to answer you for what you are going on about here. I sure wish I could be more helpful with what you might be wrestling with but I do not have any words.

 

[RedFan]

WRONG.
I don't claim it - GOD does.

YOU are at odds with God Himself.
His sacred Scripture informs us that every word of it is breathed-out from HIM..

Your rejection of God’s authorship is heresy . . .

2 Timothy 3:16
ALL SCRIPTURE is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

GOD claimed that God (rather than Luke) was the author of the gospel that bears his name? Nonsense! God had NEVER made such a claim!

Come to think of it, neither has Paul made such a claim. The "Scripture" referenced by Paul in 2 Tim. 3:16 was the OT, not Luke's gospel (which hadn't even been written yet, much less been included within the compilation we now know as the NT). Go back a few verses and you will see this clearly:

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,


See it? Paul is talking about Holy Scriptures that Timothy has known since infancy. What are those? The OT.

 

[RedFan]

Redfan I honestly don't know how to answer you for what you are going on about here. I sure wish I could be more helpful with what you might be wrestling with but I do not have any words.

No problem. Thanks for engaging.

 

[BreadOfLife]

GOD claimed that God (rather than Luke) was the author of the gospel that bears his name? Nonsense! God had NEVER made such a claim!

Come to think of it, neither has Paul made such a claim. The "Scripture" referenced by Paul in 2 Tim. 3:16 was the OT, not Luke's gospel (which hadn't even been written yet, much less been included within the compilation we now know as the NT). Go back a few verses and you will see this clearly:

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
See it? Paul is talking about Holy Scriptures that Timothy has known since infancy. What are those? The OT.

What part of “ALL SCRITURE is God-breathed” do you not understand? The ENTURE Bible is Scripture. “Scripture” simply means the Word of God that is written down.

This is why, in 2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul differentiates tradition that is written (Scripture) tradition that is spoken (Oral).

Paul’s Epistles are SCRIPTURE – just as Luke’s Gospel is.
Peter testifies to this truth of the Holy Spirit in his 2nd Epistle:

2 Pet. 3:16
He (Paul) writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people (YOU) distort, as they do the other SCRIPTURES, to their own destruction.

Stop distorting God’s truth . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Like I said . . . this verse doesn't support Christ's divinity.

The Son is God
Isa. 7:14, Isa. 9:6, Matt. 4:7, John 1:1, John 1:3, John 8:58, John 10:30, John 14:9, John 20:28, 2 Cor. 4:4, Phil. 2:6, Col. 2:9, 1 Tim. 3:16, Heb. 1:8, Titus 2:13, Rev. 22:13

God says:
Rev. 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Jesus Christ says:
Rev. 22-23
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Case CLOSED.

 

[Matthias]

God has brothers is absurd as God has a mother and a father.