We are judged by works, not by faith

[Ghada]

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness (which produced the divine result) was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs. (James 2:18)

Nice speech. I've made the simple argument that the faith in James 2 is that of our Lord (2:1), and pertains to being saved and justified by Him.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Having faith in the Lord alone can save no man.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Abraham was justified with God by his work of offering up Isaac, and then God called him Friend.

Once Bible words are rejected to teach something else of our own, that we like better, then there is no more argument about other things pertain to it. You will continue to teach by unbelief in the words of James 2, and I will do so by taking God literally at His own words in James 2.

 

[Ghada]

Jesus makes us righteous, not our works. You slandering the saved by calling them 'not righteous'. Why?

You're the one speaking of yourself and other Christians like still doing unrighteousness. I'll not bother responding your child play anymore.

I avoid people who think they are good actually like I avoid outhouses as a general rule unless unavoidable.

Because you despise the good and justify the unrighteousness. It's nothing new, but as old as Cain and Abel.

Tell us how you are a doer of truth any more than the next believer?

It's not a matter of doing the truth any more than anyone else doing the truth. It's a matter of doing righteousness at all times, instead of just some of the time.

You teach against doing the truth all the time, and justify doing so only part of the time.

 

[Ghada]

If they sin against you seventy times you think they fell down on their knees before you and repented each time?

In the Bible, yes.

Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

You just don't believe the Bible, and so your preach forgiveness without repentance. Your gospel of saying I'm sorry with half a heart is not the Bible.

The point is that they do sin. They need forgiveness even thought saved. So how it is you do not?

No one not sinning needs to repent of sinning. This is the good news of Jesus gospel, as well as common sense in life. You don't believe some of the words of the Bible, and so sense flees from your mind.

A brother is someone that already repented! They are not in need of salvation. They are saved and trespassing against you. Not in the past, right now.

True, If we sin against man, we first trespass against God.

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Anyone right now sinning against God is not born of God, nor is being a brother to the family of God.

God forgives.

Those who repent and believe His gospel of being forgiven and washed clean from all sinning in the blood of the Lamb.

How would you, being perfect and pure and sinless ever confess faults to others??

I don't doubt in your church's love fest of spilling all your dirty beans, that you demand someone makes something up, so as not shame the others.

To be saved we do repent. Again you speak untrue words as has come to be expected from you.

Once again, if you have repented of all your past sins, then why do you also claim to be sinning, and that no believer can ever be without sinning?

No. Works that people bring to God to save them are filthy rags.

Already corrected one more of your purposed misleading of what others say. I'll not bother anymore.

Works after they get saved are a work of grace.

True. They are the works we now do through the Son, which we are justified by God as the Son doing them together with His newborn son.

Righteous does not mean sinless!

Not the righteousness of your own gospel. Your personal righteousness you trust in includes while doing unrighteousness. It's the Christian gospel of imperfect conversion, partial repentance, and continue sinning some unto the grave.

Some sins are more serious than others

This is of course adding another doctrine to your impartial conversion. The Bible says all sinning is the same. It is transgression of God's law and of the devil.

The downgraded of some of our own sins is common among some unrighteous Christians.

Being not yet perfectly pure and unable to trespass in no way means we are double minded.

True, that the lesson of Romans 7 and James 4.

It means we are weak

True. the weakness of the double of heart that do not the word of God at all times, but only some of the time.

I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

but He is strong.

Only part of the time with the doubleminded. The other times He's not part of their sinning at all.

The guy who cussed up a storm and denied even knowing Jesus admonishes us to be holy. And that is great advice!

Neither Peter nor Paul were sinners like you when giving the words of God to us all. Your effort to come up with a sinful Peter and Paul, is not the apostles of the Bible.

Did you imagine holy meany never making mistakes and blowing it?

Of course. We are called to be holy as God is holy. You don't believe in the holy living of God. You preach your own version of being holy.
The rest of your stuff is jut repeating your stuff. As I said, I'll not bothering to endlessly respond to it.

 

[dad]

You're the one speaking of yourself and other Christians like still doing unrighteousness.

No, you are the one calling what Jesus spoke about (how believers need forgiving and trespass) being 'unrighteous'

Because you despise the good and justify the unrighteousness.

False accusation. Admitting Jesus spoke the truth and that believers do need chastising, correction and forgiveness is not 'despising the good'! But those pretending they are sinless saints who are perfect do seem to despise other believers (that Jesus died for)

It's nothing new, but as old as Cain and Abel.

Since hating your brother is the same as murder, those looking down their noose at other believers seem to qualify for that.

It's not a matter of doing the truth any more than anyone else doing the truth.

You cease to do truth when you declare yourself without any sin or fault or anything that could need correction from God. Tell us, If Jesus chastises us for our own good, how would you learn anything or have Him lead you from mistakes if you were already perfect. That means you can never learn or grow.

It's a matter of doing righteousness at all times, instead of just some of the time.

Right, in other words it is a matter of a big lie and sham and absolute unbiblical pretense.

You teach against doing the truth all the time, and justify doing so only part of the time.

You deny that He chastises every single son He receives apparently. How would He chastise perfect little you? How would you ever need forgiveness from anyone? You throw the phrase 'doing truth' out as if you do some unspoken and unutterable great works that show you are perfect.

 

[Ghada]

Not yet being perfect and still trespassing sometimes is not outward blame. But pretending you don't is a shame.

And so very unique. Doing things to be blamed of God, is not blamed by Christians teaching not being blamed while still doing things to be blamed by.

You are not teach the Bible judgement of God for works without respect of persons. You are teaching fellow Christians of your own doctrine not being blames so long as you don't blame them. And to make sure there is no one blamed in your gospel, no one is ever blamed for doing evil.

Since you won't blame anyone for sinful deeds, then your gospel preaches the God of the Bible can't. That doctrine ends in the grave, when the God does judge every man by his works without respect of persons, even if you doctrinally forbid it.

Believers who are saved and trespass are not sinning with the devil!

No, you are sinning with Jesus. This is more uniqueness of your doctrine. You don't believe the Bible. Doers of such things are the unrighteous children of the devil, that shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

This hypocrisy of works, is how the gospel and grace and cross of Jesus Christ is blasphemed by the world, because they don't know you are teaching another gospel than that of Jesus Christ.

They are stinkers enough on their own. But Jesus did point out that Peter was being a mouthpiece for Satan one time.

Until he repented and ceased to be.

I see now a primary source of your unrighteous Christianity. You think if any man sinned, then they will always sin. That is why you teach all not sinning today, in context of past sinning. That is also why you teach being forgiven by sinning past, present, and future. To you there is no difference between anyone at present, who has ever sinned in the past. You don't believe in the pure conversion of Jesus Christ to now have all things new and of God, if we ever sinned before.

So if a brother, as Jesus said is trespassing against me at this time, they are not saved any more!? Do you think before you post?

Not just you, but God first.

Do you reject verses of the Bible before posting against them?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

And so you preach never deceiving yourself, by always acknowledging you have sin and never do the truth.

Congratulations.

sense a Christian. Many of the scholars assure us, based upon the Greek verbs used here, that "sinneth" in this context means "leads a life of sin."

I.e. some Christians only believe they are committed to sinning, if they do it enough. Once or twice while sinning is enough commitment, but is only practice for the real thing.

Everyone that is committing sin of the devil, is committed to it. No one being drunk is not committed to being drunk.

Sons of God do not enjoy sin, they feel bad about it.

Halleluiah, here we go. Been waiting for someone to say this so plainly. You don't believe you are sinning of the devil and condemned for it like you were before, because now you don't enjoy it as much anymore. You do not believe you are judged like others doing the same things, because you don't like it as much as before.

Your disconnect between what you believe and what you are doing, has never been so clear than on this post of yours. You preach repenting of the mind only, so that now you are no longer condemned for sinning, because you no longer enjoy your sinning as much as before.

Your gospel preaches repent of enjoying sin, not repent of sinning. Your gospel preaches being delivered from enjoying sin, not from sinning.

The prodigal son did not enjoy his sin spree.

Not at first. But certainly later, which is why he repented and returned to the Father, and was no longer lost and dead to God, but now found and living again doing the will of God.

False once again. Being saved is not some work of turning over a leaf.

It is in your gospel of partial repentance, where you say your continued sinning is not as bad as the world, because you don't 'like it' so much anymore.

You preach that so long as we are not enjoying fornication, then we are not judged and condemned as fornicators.

It is God turning your whole life around and changing you. Like a baby being born, that is not a baby turning over anything! That is a doctor turning the baby over and whacking it to see if it cries.

Only if we sin. Crying is not a sin. The chastisement of sinning for any man, is being separated from the Spirit and Life of God.

After being born of the spirit, saved, we are not sinning from the past! Whatever mistakes and blow its and trespasses we may do are present.

Another new one. So, you don't claim continuing from past sinning, but only committing new ones. I suppose that's because they are now without enjoying it.

He saves us we do not save and convert ourselves. Don't accuse God of not converting us properly. Having trespasses still is part of that.

Your conversion and gospel by your own faith alone.

False! Trials are of God! Testings.

True. Testing our faith with temptations is what God allows in this life. Sinning by temptations is falling from God with the devil.

Taking up the things He has for us to bear has zero to do with pretending you are sinless.

Taking up our cross is repenting of the old ,man and life of sinning, and walking as Jesus walked in newness of life, with all things now being of God.

Your partial repentance of partial cross bearing with partial double minded faith, is not the gospel of Jesus Christ in the Bible.

 

[Ghada]

No, you are the one calling what Jesus spoke about (how believers need forgiving and trespass) being 'unrighteous'

False accusation. Admitting Jesus spoke the truth and that believers do need chastising, correction and forgiveness is not 'despising the good'! But those pretending they are sinless saints who are perfect do seem to despise other believers (that Jesus died for)

Since hating your brother is the same as murder, those looking down their noose at other believers seem to qualify for that.

You cease to do truth when you declare yourself without any sin or fault or anything that could need correction from God. Tell us, If Jesus chastises us for our own good, how would you learn anything or have Him lead you from mistakes if you were already perfect. That means you can never learn or grow.

Right, in other words it is a matter of a big lie and sham and absolute unbiblical pretense.

You deny that He chastises every single son He receives apparently. How would He chastise perfect little you? How would you ever need forgiveness from anyone? You throw the phrase 'doing truth' out as if you do some unspoken and unutterable great works that show you are perfect.

As I said, nothing new here. However your other post was full of unique little doosies.

 

[dad]

You just don't believe the Bible, and so your preach forgiveness without repentance. Your gospel of saying I'm sorry with half a heart is not the Bible.

No one said sorry to Jesus on the cross. Yet He forgave them. People who are unforgiving and demand some knee scraping apology from everyone for the tiniest of (perceived) sins take it out of context. We should go to a brother is there is a significant issue. In another place we are told it is not wise to go to the law with brethren. In those sort of cases it is better to either resolve it with them or even be defrauded. But tell me, how would a brother defrauding you be perfect? If they are not perfect how could they be a believer if you think all believers are perfect? So yes if we have something against another believer we should approach them and try to work it out. In other cases probably it might be better to try to overlook little things.
Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins

Proverbs 17:9
He that covereth a transgression seeketh love
Paul forgave some people without even being there, so there was no apology involved for him.

2 Corinthians 2:10
To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ

No one not sinning needs to repent of sinning. This is the good news of Jesus gospel, as well as common sense in life.

False. There is no one perfect. If they did not sin we would not be commanded to forgive them for doing so. The good news is that Jesus saves. Not that you work up salvation and keep it by your perfection.

True, If we sin against man, we first trespass against God.

Unlike you eh?

Anyone right now sinning against God is not born of God, nor is being a brother to the family of God.

Hilarious hypocrisy. One minute try to elevate any little mistake a believer makes to trespassing against God and claim that means they are not saved. Then you pretend you are perfect and commit no such trespasses. That is not a Christian position.

Those who repent and believe His gospel of being forgiven and washed clean from all sinning in the blood of the Lamb.

Forgiven. Yet in need of correcting and chastisement from God and forgiveness from brethren! You don't take a shower and get washed once in a lifetime. At least you shouldn't or people can tell a mile away!

Once again, if you have repented of all your past sins, then why do you also claim to be sinning, and that no believer can ever be without sinning?

Jesus claimed we need forgivness. You claim you don't. Guess who is wrong?

True. They are the works we now do through the Son, which we are justified by God as the Son doing them together with His newborn son.

We are also judged/chastened by Him. Some have more fruit than others. He prunes the tree to get it to bear fruit.

Not the righteousness of your own gospel. Your personal righteousness you trust in includes while doing unrighteousness.

Let's get this straight. You claim that every brother that Jesus spoke about that trespasses is not saved?

It's the Christian gospel of imperfect conversion, partial repentance, and continue sinning some unto the grave.

Conversion is perfect. That INCLUDES the work He does after in us that includes chastening in EVERY case. Why not your case??

The Bible says all sinning is the same. It is transgression of God's law and of the devil.

No, some of the unsaved will be beaten with few stripes, some with many! That is not all the same. Some sins a saved believer commits are worse than others. In fact there is a sin unto death. The kind of sins we are to forgive brothers for are NOT the same as sin of the wicked who are not His sons. You conflate all things in a confused frenzy that results in you pretending to be perfect.

True. the weakness of the double of heart that do not the word of God at all times, but only some of the time.

You inserted the part that defines the double minded as meaning they do not 'do the word'. Whatever that is supposed to mean. Do brothers trespassing against you seven times a day 'do the word'? Or do you think only perfect and sinless people such as you 'do the word'?

I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Part of abiding in Him involves Him dealing with us to cause us to bear fruit.

Only part of the time with the doubleminded. The other times He's not part of their sinning at all.

Double minded does not mean that one has great works at times and none at other times. It means that a person is not rooted and stablished in the faith. That could even refer to the unsaved. People sometimes think there is a God and other times doubt it etc.

Neither Peter nor Paul were sinners like you when giving the words of God to us all.

I see. So at some point that was not written about in Scripture, Peter and Paul suddenly became saved and perfect?! Paul admits otherwise. It is also not sound to propose that Peter was not saved as an apostle! Jesus did not say 'All of you are devils'!

Your effort to come up with a sinful Peter and Paul, is not the apostles of the Bible.

Paul admitted he was wretched. Peter demonstrated it. Yet they were forgiven and saved and learning. How could you being a perfect man ever learn anything?

Of course. We are called to be holy as God is holy. You don't believe in the holy living of God.

Yes I do! I don't believe in your self declared perfection and holiness!

You preach your own version of being holy.

Jesus is holy. He is in us so we are holy too. Not perfect yet, but He is working on us. Pruning, chastening, guiding, teaching etc.

 

[mailmandan]

Nice speech. I've made the simple argument that the faith in James 2 is that of our Lord (2:1), and pertains to being saved and justified by Him.

Say what?

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Having faith in the Lord alone can save no man.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

You need to re-think your theology. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony* Man is saved through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone (apart from the merit of works) yet authentic faith does not remain alone (apart from the presence of works). This is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to accept.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James is not using the word "justified" in verse 24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Abraham was justified with God by his work of offering up Isaac, and then God called him Friend.

Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-3) yet Abraham was also justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21) When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Yet Abraham was still accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Once Bible words are rejected to teach something else of our own, that we like better, then there is no more argument about other things pertain to it. You will continue to teach by unbelief in the words of James 2, and I will do so by taking God literally at His own words in James 2.

You error by defining the word "justified" in James 2 as "accounted as righteous" in contradiction with Romans 4:2-6. You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. The end result of your error culminates in salvation by works/works-righteousness.

 

[dad]

And so very unique. Doing things to be blamed of God, is not blamed by Christians teaching not being blamed while still doing things to be blamed by.

It is not blamed by God to be saved and accept His gift of eternal life. It is blamed by God not to. Accepting salvation does not mean we are in heaven as soon as we ask. Nor does it mean our body is changed into an incorruptible one yet. Neither does it mean (as Jesus repeated often) that we will never trespass against others. Look at the Lord's prayer. Forgive US OUR sins as we forgive those that sin against us'!

You are not teach the Bible judgement of God for works without respect of persons.

Yes I do. Your works after being saved determine your eternal reward (not your salvation)

You are teaching fellow Christians of your own doctrine not being blames so long as you don't blame them.

Jesus said we both trespass! We are not blamed for that. We learn and grow from that.

And to make sure there is no one blamed in your gospel, no one is ever blamed for doing evil.

Don't confuse the evil of the unsaved wicked with the sins of the saved. Brothers are not evil for trespassing against you, they are human! Saved humeans being worked on by God.

Since you won't blame anyone for sinful deeds, then your gospel preaches the God of the Bible can't.

He judges us on works. The saved are judged/rewarded for what they did. The wicked are punished for what they did.

That doctrine ends in the grave, when the God does judge every man by his works without respect of persons, even if you doctrinally forbid it.

The saved are judged not condemned by their works. What God looks at is whether we have receive Jesus or not. If not then you must stand to account for your sins alone. If we have Jesus, then He already paid for our salvation and that is not by any works which we have done but according to His mercy.

No, you are sinning with Jesus. This is more uniqueness of your doctrine. You don't believe the Bible. Doers of such things are the unrighteous children of the devil, that shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Do you claim that all believers who He chastises and who ever trespass are 'sinning with Jesus' and children of the devil? Answer clearly.

Until he repented and ceased to be.

As do all believers one would hope for things they did wrong. You have suggested that Peter was not even saved, but only later somehow was born again.

You think if any man sinned, then they will always sin. That is why you teach all not sinning today, in context of past sinning.

I take it English is not your first language.

That is also why you teach being forgiven by sinning past, present, and future. To you there is no difference between anyone at present, who has ever sinned in the past.

There is a big difference. Once we are saved/born again He is in us helping us be better.

I.e. some Christians only believe they are committed to sinning, if they do it enough. Once or twice while sinning is enough commitment, but is only practice for the real thing.

That old man needs to be put down more than once.
Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Before getting saved we served sin. Now, even if we trespass, it should be the exception and not part of living in sin.

Everyone that is committing sin of the devil, is committed to it

As explained anyone saying he has not sinned deceives himself. The people Jesus asks us to forgive as brothers are not of the devil. They no longer are given over to sin, they struggle and are helped by God in that struggle. It is a struggle that lasts all our lives.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.


16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.


17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.


20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.


22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Get it?

. No one being drunk is not committed to being drunk.

Noah probably was not a lifelong raging alcoholic. He had a lapse of judgment probably.

Halleluiah, here we go. Been waiting for someone to say this so plainly. You don't believe you are sinning of the devil and condemned for it like you were before, because now you don't enjoy it as much anymore.

No. I do not enjoy sin much anymore BECAUSE I am saved. Because I am a son. Not 'because I don't enjoy it as much'!

You do not believe you are judged like others doing the same things, because you don't like it as much as before.

No believer is judged to hell. We believe we are corrected and dealt with by God for our own good.
Psalms 103:10
He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Your disconnect between what you believe and what you are doing,

No. I realize that what I do is not yet always perfect, but He is working on us still.

. You preach repenting of the mind only,

False. By the heart we believe and are saved. He answers the heartcry of people. That does not mean instant perfection. There is a whole lot more repentin in life if Jesus is correct and we need to forgive so much!

Not at first. But certainly later,

? He enjoyed the pigpen later? Explain?

It is in your gospel of partial repentance,

False it is full repentance resulting in full salvation. Even then there will still be some stuff that needs being sorry for. The main battle of eternal salvation, though is over. Never to be revisited.

where you say your continued sinning is not as bad as the world, because you don't 'like it' so much anymore.

No. The saved people are righteous. Thy are not righteous or saved because of works or 'not liking sin' so much! They are saved because they came to Jesus and accepted Him and His gift of eternal life. After that, when they make mistakes or fall short in some way, or trespass, of course it is not a pleasant or happy thing.

You preach that so long as we are not enjoying fornication, then we are not judged and condemned as fornicators.

Now I consider that a serious sin, and not something saved people would be involved with. If, however some did sin in that area as saved Christians, God would be all over them and on their case as the good Parent He is. As Paul mentioned, some guy had to be killed so that his spirit would live. If you start talking about serious hopefully rare sins of believers, well, they won't get away with it.

True. Testing our faith with temptations is what God allows in this life. Sinning by temptations is falling from God with the devil.

Ah, so you then, being perfect have never given in and had that candy bar or anything else. Of course. That would make you a child of the devil in your world of perfection.

Taking up our cross is repenting of the old ,man and life of sinning, and walking as Jesus walked in newness of life, with all things now being of God.

So Paul struggling with that and not doing good as he wanted to and doing bad as he did not want to at times means he never took up his cross? By the way, brethren who trespass at times are not living a life of sin!

 

[Jack]

"We are judged by works, not by faith"

Can't separate works and faith! Christian faith produces Christian works!

James 2
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Jay Ross]

Nah, we are judged by the organic fruit that we generate because of our faith. The trouble is that we tend to work at producing this so called fruit in our own strength. Dud.

 

[Gottservant]

I know its hard for you guys to understand, but we are "known" by our fruits, not judged by them. Our works are judged, at the Great White Throne Judgment - that is, our works are "judged by faith".

If you get these things back to front, you either say "we are saved by works" or "our works are inspired for no reason" (of which neither are true).

Really think! How are you inspired, now that your faith has saved you? How can you more greatly express the Love of God, with the Love He gave you?

 

[Marymog]

An atheist cannot produce works God defines as "good" Roman, Isaiah prove that absolutely.

Help me out here Ronald. What passages of Romans and Isaiah "prove that absolutely".

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Help me out here Ronald. What passages of Romans and Isaiah "prove that absolutely".

Romans 8:5-8

King James Version

​

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 3:9-12

King James Version

​

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

1 Corinthians 2:14

King James Version

​

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Isaiah 1:6

King James Version

​

6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

 

[Marymog]

Romans 8:5-8​

​

King James Version​

​

​

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 3:9-12​

​

King James Version​

​

​

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

1 Corinthians 2:14​

​

King James Version​

​

​

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Isaiah 1:6​

​

King James Version​

​

​

6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

thank you.... I don't see ANYWHERE in there that atheist cannot produce works (help the homeless, feed the hungry etc) but if you see it then so be it....Thank you for your opinion.....Mary

 

[Ronald Nolette]

thank you.... I don't see ANYWHERE in there that atheist cannot produce works (help the homeless, feed the hungry etc) but if you see it then so be it....Thank you for your opinion.....Mary

Once again let me repeat, People can do good things like you mention, but if they are unsaved they count for nothiung in heaven

People are not saved by good deeds, they are saved by being born again and becoming children of God through trusting ion th edeath and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sins.

All good deeds done by the lost will never get them out of hell and count for nothing in eternity.

 

[Marymog]

Once again let me repeat, People can do good things like you mention, but if they are unsaved they count for nothiung in heaven

People are not saved by good deeds, they are saved by being born again and becoming children of God through trusting ion th edeath and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sins.

All good deeds done by the lost will never get them out of hell and count for nothing in eternity.

You stated that "atheist cannot produce works". And you have said that "People can do good things...". Which is it?

I think there is some nuance to your beliefs....

Mary

 

[BlessedPeace]

The Bible teaches us that our works judge us, not our faith. We aren't judged by what we believe, but by what we do.

Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

In the Bible good works have always been necessary to be judged righteous with God. That includes all NT believers, because God is not a respecter of persons when righteously judging any man's work.

The Bible never says we are judged by our faith alone, and not by our works. We are justified by works, because our deeds judge our faith, whether it is of God or not.

Good works is not just a show of faith, but are the necessary means of being just and righteous with God. Christ comes to make our works truly good, because they are not from a pure heart of faith. He does not come to bypass works and judge us by our faith alone.

And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

We see here how we are not only justified by our works, but we are also resurrected unto life by our works being judged as good with God.

Faith without works is so useless, because without the good works we do by faith, we do not receive the reward of inheriting the kingdom of God forever.

Faith is not the end goal. Good works are the goal of faith, because the reward of inheritance is by good works, not by faith alone.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

The Bible says being charitable in life is greater than faith. Faith and hope are important, and faith is the gift of God, so that we can please Him by doing good. Doing good and not evil is how we are judged by God to be worthy to walk with Him in white forever.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

If God is not a respecter of persons, how does he then judge each of us uniquely by our works?

Aren't works related to faith!

 

[Marymog]

I know its hard for you guys to understand, but we are "known" by our fruits, not judged by them.

False prophets are known by their fruits (Matthew 7).....NOT each individual believer in Christ.

And those false prophets are judged by their fruits: Every tree (false prophet) that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

 

[JunChosen]

Salvation has ZERO to do with works. Get over it. Nothing whatsoever. No relation at all. No connection. When we talk about works for those who are saved it is a result of being saved. It is the least we should do. He works on us and chastises us as needed to produce fruit. You should be specific as to what appears in your mind to be living in filthy rags for the saved?? Of course saving faith is apart from works. You seem to put the cart before the horse.

I've waited so long for you to say that "works" has no relation nor connection with man's works! Good works come directly from God.

Indeed, the works that God has in view is the RESULT OF BECOMING SAVED! For no natural man has the capacity to understand the things of God.

Good insight.

To God Be The Glory