We are judged by works, not by faith

[Ghada]

If you take that to mean you could never think a bad thought again,

I've already taught the Bible definition of sinlessness on earth, that does not include being tempted to sin by tempting thoughts of the devil. In that case, Jesus would not only have not been sinless on earth, but would indeed have been chiefest of sinners above and beyond the Paul you preach.

I can see our time together may be winding down. Once I see I have to keep responding to someone repeating themselves, then it get useless. And worse yet, boring.

or jaywalk

Jaywalking is a sin? I suppose intruding into traffic can be offensive, and especially causing accidents. But fleeing a murderer through traffic isn't a sin. Nor would walking across the street with no traffic, especially at 2am in the morning.

I've often seen such Christians as yourself, who preach continued sinning from time to time against the law of Christ, then go to the other extreme of saying sinlessness on earth includes a perfection that God doesn't even command.

It's all pride of one's own faith alone and our standard of what we say sin is and is not. It's the same judgment and spirit of the Pharisees who condemned Jesus as a transgressor, for doing what they called sinning. What you call sinning is not what God calls sinning, because you preach from your own faith and standard, not from the words of the Bible.

 

[Ghada]

Otherwise called being honest. Striving to be more like Jesus does not mean we are exactly like Him and perfect in every way instantly.

Not in your imperfect gospel of partial conversion only. You do not believe from the heart unto the righteousness of Jesus in this life.
Your words means more to you than Bible words. As we have seen, it's all just about words with you.

The sum of your gospel is that so long as you believe you are saved, then you are, no matter what you are doing at the time.

The only thing I have seen from you yet, is that when you do sin, your soul is not condemned, because it's only your body now doing it.

It's the extremer version Christian separation of saving faith from works. It's called the doctrine of soul-separation from the deeds of the mortal body.

So when I see someone claiming that poop doesn't stink, it sets off alarm bells.

More like a pricked conscience.

And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

 

[marks]

Not thinking, but am and doing in Christ. That is now today, but tomorrow has it's own battles. That is why we are warned to continue in the fear of the Lord, and not be high-minded about His grace.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

You don't live it at this time, because you don't believe it in your heart. If you repent and believe the perfect gospel and pure conversion of Jesus Christ, then you too can have and see His power to walk as He walked. The Father is not a respecter of persons. He receives all who repent and come to His Son to walk with Him in righteousness and true holiness.

I don't deny the power of God to lead us in walking consistently in the Spirit, as He wills to grant us such walk. We walk in the Spirit as we are able, and walking in the Spirit we do not sin.

Well, with this caveat.

We are NOT our own judge. Jesus Christ is our proper judge, and He will judge us not now, but when He comes. We are ignorant of our own hearts and motivations, and therefore are not qualified to judge ourselves. To declare, "I am not sinning" is hubris. We are not qualified to say, and do better to keep our mouths shut.

In failing to properly interpret the Scriptures, you rob your hearers of the true power of God to lead us in the walk of eternal life. The certainty of our reconciliation based in Jesus Christ and not ourselves releases us from the bondage of Law, attempting to either work to be saved, or work to stay saved. Either works directly against you.

Legalist mentality inevitably leads to more sin. It's just the way it works. You've studied James, and misunderstand it. Turn to Romans 4-7, and learn about when Christians try to live by the Law.

It's stepping out on your Spouse, spiritual adultery. Romans 7. I recommend you come to an understanding of these chapters.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It's all pride of one's own faith alone and our standard of what we say sin is and is not. It's the same judgment and spirit of the Pharisees who condemned Jesus as a transgressor, for doing what they called sinning. What you call sinning is not what God calls sinning, because you preach from your own faith and standard, not from the words of the Bible.

All that is not of faith. Everything that is not a result of your trusting in Christ. Even a moment of doubt about whether something was actually for your good . . . this too is sin.

The good thing that you put off and never did, the good thing that you should do today, and don't do, this too is sin.

And the Bible teaches us, we are not qualified to even say about ourselves.

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Much love!

 

[Ghada]

Don't get sore that not all people swallow your works trip on again off again salvation pill.

Noit in the least. Just seeing if you were contradicting your own gospel by starting to judge confessing believers by their works, as being saved or not.

You don't, then your at least not a hypocrite of your own doctrine.

Absollutely. Our works are likf filthy mentrous rags and not anywhere near good enough to save us.

Ok. I'll save this one for the next time, if there is one, where you get offended at being reminded you confess to still being filthy and teaching living that way.

Again you try to use a verse out of context.
Matthew 18:15
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

The devil also skips parts of the Bible when tempting Jesus in the wilderness.

And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

God not only judges us by our works to justify us as being saved, but He also gives authority to believers to do the same in their churches.

The devil also skips the deceitful skipping of parts of the Bible, and sometimes just goes straight to teaching the opposite the words of the Bible.

Ye shall not surely die.

This is what preachers such as you answer, when any believer asks what happens when we are disobeying God's commandment.

As I explained if some believer really went too far and sinned too greatly, God might have to kill them in order that their spirit live. In most cases simple guidance and correction suffice.

Yeah. I know. the Ol' Mai Lai massacre move of God.

Here's a logical question for you. Since the Bible says it is better to die and be in the presence of the Lord, than to remain alive on earth enduring this life for a while longer. Then doesn't it make sense to do whatever we can to die and be int he presence of the Lord forever?

Shouldn't we really crank up the sinning full blast, like I used to do before coming to Jesus, so that God will mercifully kill me and take me home? Have you known any of your fellow filthy rags Christians that have done that? Like overdosing or something? Getting killed in the act of adultery or drunken racing on the highway? Known any of your fellow sinful Christians now in heaven that way?

 

[mailmandan]

There are many men in churches today that would view works very differently. Some people would view preaching the gospel for example as extremism and illegal etc. Some churches would view extreme sin in the eyes of God, such as unnatural sexual practices and molesting the natural sexes of children and etc as good. They would view people trying to speak against that as bad. There have even been pastors arrested for feeding the poor etc (pandemic overreach laws) and many in those closed churches would support that! Some kids have been persecuted at schools for trying to stand up for bible fundamental truths and many people cheer that on, even so called believers. So...what men!? All that aside, some people simply are going to let their light shine more than others! You need to learn to separate salvation, the gift of God whereby we become sons of God, with works.
It was already pointed out that even is some people's works are burned up, they are still saved. It was shown that rewards will be more for some than others based on works. It was also shown that some people who are saved sin so badly that God has to allow them to die so that their spirit will live.

So yes we can point out any number of things that we should do, such as preach the gospel (let our light shine) but remember that failure does not mean being kicked out of His family and losing eternal life. Of course He wants us to share the good news and be loving to help others etc!


Bingo

I would agree. But the discussion here involved a poster hinging our salvation to a life of works. As if that merited salvation and maintained salvation. So the thief on the cross was one example of someone without a whole lot of works that was still saved.

Right. And if anyone does not bear fruit, He purges them. Even has some branches burned in the fire as needed. Not hell fire. The end of their lives on earth.




@Ghada "It is God who justified them by their works"

Abraham believed God and that is why he obeyed

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

As far as I can tell we are on the same page. :)

 

[marks]

at being reminded you confess to still being filthy and teaching living that way.

Where exactly did @dad say that? I didn't see it. It seems to me he didn't say that. If he didn't say that, and you say he did, what would you call that? Truth? Lying? What would be the proper term? And if lying, is that sin? What say you?

Or, maybe I've missed something, and you can point me to the place he said those things. Hoping for a good outcome here!

Much love!

 

[dad]

No, it only means not being high minded, but continuing in the fear of the Lord. I've already shown you how we have assurance in 2 Peter 1, that if we add to our faith and do those things necessary to ensure we never fall. You also show repeatedly how you reject all such nonsense talk of the Bible.

In other words if we trust God for what He said (eternal life) we are highminded?

Jn 11:25,26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I've also already noted for you how your gospel is your own conversion, where you are doing the best you can. That is not the conversion of God where we do what Jesus can.

False. No one has any other conversion than asking Jesus for His free gift. And this the conversion of God, there is no other.

You don't want to do what Jesus can, because at this time you don't want to live your Christian life without the pleasure of sinning again. I understand it, and used to practice it, but that is in the past for me now. Just not for you.

We all want to 'do what Jesus can'! Nor is sin any pleasure for saved people. The issue here is that you claim to be spotless and without sin and perfect right now. That is why you are called on to the carpet

Maybe some time in the future, if the longsuffering of God continues with you, you could repent once for all He commands. It's just that you this gospel of yours that saves you by just doing the best you can, and not doing what Jesus can. I never bought into that doctrine of yours.

The issue is after we repent and trespass. You claim that you don't trespass and therefore no bretheren would ever need forgive you for anything. That sounds more muslim or some other religion to me than Christian. IF there is anyone else reading this thread that claims to be pure and sinless and absolutely perfect all the time, then let us know. This sounds like a mental illness to me.

This is a new one. Not only is your Paul the chiefest of sinners, but now your Paul is an idol worshipper by exhorting Christians to cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of the spirit and flesh?

Again you make stuff up.
In a verse you cited Paul was talking to and about that. You seem to have a real problem with context.

I suppose I could sort of see how you would conclude that, after listening to you for so long. You would say that the very idea of 'thinking' we can cleanse our hearts of lust and our lives from works of the flesh, is boastful idolatry of our own power and holiness.

Well, a false pretense is a bad thing. So prove that you are absolutely perfect?

It never occurs to you that the Bible gospel and promise of Jesus Christ by God is that if we do repent and believe Him,

It is not. Nowhere do I get promised absolute perfection faster than making an instant coffee!

that He is the One that does give such power to them that are wholly newborn of Him.

Being born of the spirit does not mean instant absolute sinless perfection, FYI. It means God begins a good work and will finish it one day.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

That does not mean instant sinless purity and absolute perfection. It means we are family.

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Context: who is that written to?

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
The saved.

Looking at a bible commentary it says this


"life and godliness—Spiritual life must exist first before there can be true godliness. Knowledge of God experimentally is the first step to life (John 17:3). The child must have vital breath. first, and then cry to, and walk in the ways of, his father. It is not by godliness that we obtain life, but by life, godliness. To life stands opposed corruption to godliness, lust (2 Peter 1:4).

2 Peter 1 - Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

2 Peter 1, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible, One of over 125 Bible commentaries freely available, this commentary is a one-volume commentary prepared by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown

www.studylight.org

Not by works.

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Yes. And He does help us. Some let Him help more than others. All this is after He is in us. Don't offer a works trip interpretation of the gospel and accuse others of not believing the bible when they point out it is wrong.

Your Paul here would probably be saying this means we can do anything we want in life, whether evil or good, and Christ will still strengthen us unto resurrection unto life. Correct?

No. We do not use our liberty as a cloak for evil. Nor does this mean we have no liberty. If some misuse their liberty God knows and will deal with them.

The Bible says all sinful rebellion against Him is idolatry and witchcraft.

That does not mean saved people cannot ever trespass at all. That refers to people who rebel against God and refuse His spirit.

What you are showing here by exempting yourself from needing to be purified of all filthiness of the spirit and flesh, is that you think that is only for others who were 'really' sinful, unlike you.

We all need improvement, that is why He chastises every son He receives. It is not I that claim only others are not perfect and trespass here! You are the one pretending to be sinless and pure here.

And so your Christian conversion and religion is simply of becoming even a gooder sinner than before.

No. Being saved means Jesus is in the house. Naturally it will get cleaned up. Those claiming that there is not a speck of dust in their house with no proof need to be taken with a grain of salt.

That is the mindset of the righteous, that Jesus cannot save. He can only call real sinners to repentance, not the good sinners such as yourself, that don't think your old sinning ever stunk so much, and still doesn't.

False. ALL are sinners that need to be saved. Once we are saved, we are not yet perfect and without any trespasses in this life. One day we will be, and one day also our body will be also. Your claim of absolute sinlessness and perfection now is about as credible as claiming your body is now immortal and like His!

Your gospel doesn't believe in being wholly and purely newborn with all things now being of God, until after the grave.

In His eyes we are pure because of Jesus in us. That is what God looks at! Not how good a little boy you think you are.

In the meantime, you just muddle along trying to do the best that you can, but never what Jesus can.

No. We do the best we can letting Him work in us. Some do better than others.

It's a twist on the classic error of trying to dress up ourselves a little better and better, before allowing God to make us born again.

No one can dress up as saved. They must ask Jesus and receive the real thing. The issue here is people dressing up after they are saved as sinless perfect people rather than wretches and people struggling with the old man. (like Paul)

 

[dad]

You make no such dishonest pretence, and I believe you. You also however falsely accuse all Christians of only pretending, if they don't live sinfully like you.

If you never trespass against brethren why did Jesus say we should forgive you when you do? You set up a false perfection and then say that is what being a Christian means!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you never trespass against brethren why did Jesus say we should forgive you when you do? Yoou set up a false perfection and then say that is what being a Christian means!

Pharisee pumping their chest.

sadly I fear they failed to get on knees and cry out to God

 

[dad]

Ok. I'll save this one for the next time, if there is one, where you get offended at being reminded you confess to still being filthy and teaching living that way.

He forgave us all our sins. We are clean. Being clean in this world does not being without any trespasses at all ever in life. Jesus made that clear. We are to forgive brothers that trespass. That does not mean they are filthy dogs and rags. It means they made a mistake. Like the old bumper sticker 'Being Christian doesn't mean we are perfect, it means we are forgiven'

God not only judges us by our works to justify us as being saved,

Whoa! Have to stop you there. Only He justifies us being saved. No one ever did or could justify themselves enough to be saved. A bit like trying to jump off the west coast of North America and land in Japan. The only question is how much you will fall short, despite the most valiant effort!

Ye shall not surely die.

This is what preachers such as you answer, when any believer asks what happens when we are disobeying God's commandment.

No that is what Jesus promised!
John 11:26

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. - Jesus speaking
You are overruled.

Here's a logical question for you. Since the Bible says it is better to die and be in the presence of the Lord, than to remain alive on earth enduring this life for a while longer. Then doesn't it make sense to do whatever we can to die and be int he presence of the Lord forever?

No. Because Paul also said that he was concerned about people so that he also wanted to remain for their sakes. The love of God in us sorts all that out. Besides, we know it is in the bible that we should not kill.

Shouldn't we really crank up the sinning full blast, like I used to do before coming to Jesus, so that God will mercifully kill me and take me home?

You would want to meet Him like that??

Have you known any of your fellow filthy rags Christians that have done that?

Nice.

You sure are insulting to His people for one being absolutely perfect.

 

[mailmandan]

It's called sanctification. You think you do good on your own? When we walk as Jesus walked, is that not imparted righteousness?
KJV James 1:17
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning .

Is the righteousness and the works by which you live, a gift? Therefore, imparted.

KJV Romans 5:17
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness (imparted) shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

KJV James 2:17-18
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

KJV Hebrews 11:32-38
32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33 Who through faith (believed, or acted on their beliefs....?) subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy, they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth).

I absolutely believe in sanctification. At the moment of salvation, we are sanctified - set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

Yet we also see progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. That would be part of walking as Jesus walked. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, we read - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So, becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one-time event and is not a process, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process. Here is how I understand it. The believer possesses a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, an ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. Not sure I would refer to that as imparted righteousness.

When I first heard you say "imparted" righteousness it raised a red flag for me from the years I spent growing up in the Roman Catholic church which I no longer attend. They taught "imparted" or "infused" righteousness, which culminated in salvation by faith AND works.

In regard to "faith without works is dead" James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith, and the works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. It takes a living faith to produce works (Ephesians 2:5-10) just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit.

So, James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works (bare profession of faith) demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

 

[mailmandan]

As I said previously, twice, we are saved by faith. We are judged by our works. Why are we judged by our works? Because our works reveal whether our faith is real. So. Both faith and works are essential. They are, as I said, a package deal. One cannot exist without the other.

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No (good) fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. (Matthew 7:17-20) Hence, good tree, bad tree. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but works are not the very essence of faith and works are also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. (Romans 4:5-6) All genuine believers are fruitful yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

 

[mailmandan]

KJV Matthew 5:6
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

I don't see the word "imparted" in Matthew 5:6. I do see the word "imputes" or "imputed" in scripture. (Romans 4:6, 11, 23, 24; 5:13)

 

[mailmandan]

You need to learn to separate salvation, the gift of God whereby we become sons of God, with works.

I do separate the root of salvation (faith) from the fruit of salvation (works). They are not the same. Faith is faith and works are works, yet a lifetime of no works at all would demonstrate there is no root.

It was already pointed out that even is some people's works are burned up, they are still saved.

This does not mean that ALL of their works are burned up. Just the works that are tested and turn out to be wood, hay and straw. Works that are tested and turn out to be gold, silver and precious stones are not burned up and are rewarded. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

It was shown that rewards will be more for some than others based on works.

Amen!

It was also shown that some people who are saved sin so badly that God has to allow them to die so that their spirit will live.

Are you referring to 1 Corinthians 5:1-5?

So yes we can point out any number of things that we should do, such as preach the gospel (let our light shine) but remember that failure does not mean being kicked out of His family and losing eternal life. Of course He wants us to share the good news and be loving to help others etc!

Amen!

 

[mailmandan]

I call your Paul of another gospel false. Even as your gospel is not my gospel, neither is your Paul the Paul of my gospel.

We've already established that James of the Bible preaches justification with God by works. You have conveniently set aside your failed effort to justify your unbelief in all of James 2, by trying to have the justification of works in James 2 as being only with men.

You have yet to even acknowledge the fact that Abraham and Rahab are certainly recorded in the Bible as being justified by works with God, and not by men alone.

It is God who says, Now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

It wasn't Isaac that justified Abraham by his works, nor was it the spies justifying Rahab. It is God who justified them by their works,a dn these two are examples for all Christians today.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness (which produced the divine result) was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs. (James 2:18)

 

[CadyandZoe]

This does not mean that ALL of their works are burned up. Just the works that are tested and turn out to be wood, hay and straw. Works that are tested and turn out to be gold, silver and precious stones are not burned up and are rewarded. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

It has been mistakenly assumed by some that Paul refers to all believers in 1 Corinthians 3. However, upon closer examination, it becomes evident that Paul is solely addressing ministers of the gospel, like himself and Apollos, as the matter at hand pertains to the expansion of the body of Christ. The growth process starts with Paul, who introduced the fundamental gospel message to Corinth and gained followers. Subsequently, Apollos took over and further developed the church by attracting additional believers through his teachings.

The term "fire" symbolizes the examination of one's faith. God tests the faith of all believers, and some are able to endure the test, while others cannot. The hay, wood, and stubble signify those who will not be able to withstand the test. Conversely, the Gold, Silver, and precious stones represent those who persevere in their faith. Once the examination is over, each person's actions will be revealed. If a preacher's words are simply empty rhetoric, their followers will abandon their faith when tested. However, if a preacher's teachings focus on the fundamental gospel and expound upon it, their followers will become devoted to Christ and able to persevere through any trial.

@dad

 

[dad]

I do separate the root of salvation (faith) from the fruit of salvation (works). They are not the same. Faith is faith and works are works, yet a lifetime of no works at all would demonstrate there is no root.

I guess we would need a judge to rule there were no works at all. If we asked the Pharisees and maybe some onlookers who gave more, the widow or the rich man, possibly most would say the rich man had the better work, If we asked them about the beggar out on the street named Lazarus, they might also assume he had zero works. Yet in both cases God saw something else. Then there is the issue what is works in God's eyes? Maybe he considers kindness and prayer and faithfulness to others and Him, and patience, and avoiding evil and etc works. Maybe a church down the street would consider works volunteering there, and donating there and attending there etc to be visible works. I already used the example of a preacher in Canada who was arrested and jailed for feeding the poor and preaching. God would think that was works, yet the guy was condemned by some 'christians'. So we probably need some context as to the sort of works men would see as works. Then we might ask about your 'lifetime' of no works. I am thinking that I don't recall seeing that. Have you? I have seen that some people take longer than others to learn some lessons. Some take longer to come around to a more biblical position (such as on abortion and homosexuality etc). Some believers seem to be entrenched in a lifelong mistake (such as warmongers). But who really is the judge? How would I walk by and condemn someone for apparently not having the right kind of works? Maybe the real sin there would be me having a lifelong judgmental attitude and lack of love! Maybe not noticing a person was a little better than there were some years ago would be my problem more than their lifetime of no works? Then we have Jesus saying this
John 6: 28,29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

This does not mean that ALL of their works are burned up. Just the works that are tested and turn out to be wood, hay and straw. Works that are tested and turn out to be gold, silver and precious stones are not burned up and are rewarded. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

Good point. However, in verses 14,15 it seems to be talking about more than a bit of someone's works getting burned. In the verses before it seemed to be talking about a more normal situation where some of the things done after being saved were found to be no good. In 14 and 15 it sounds like a total burning, so much so, it is pointed out that the guy was still saved at least.

Are you referring to 1 Corinthians 5:1-5?

Yes

 

[dad]

It has been mistakenly assumed by some that Paul refers to all believers in 1 Corinthians 3. However, upon closer examination, it becomes evident that Paul is solely addressing ministers of the gospel, like himself and Apollos, as the matter at hand pertains to the expansion of the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:1
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God
1 Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:10
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
Was he not talking to that church at Corinth? I didn't see that part where it was only to some 'ministers of the gospel' like Apollos? Are we not all supposed to be ministers of the gospel?

The growth process starts with Paul, who introduced the fundamental gospel message to Corinth and gained followers. Subsequently, Apollos took over and further developed the church by attracting additional believers through his teachings.

1 Corinthians 3:5
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? The point was that Paul (or Apollos) or anyone else did not get the glory. We all play our part.

The term "fire" symbolizes the examination of one's faith. God tests the faith of all believers, and some are able to endure the test, while others cannot. The hay, wood, and stubble signify those who will not be able to withstand the test.

He then goes on to make it clear who he is talking to

1 Corinthians 3:12
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Conversely, the Gold, Silver, and precious stones represent those who persevere in their faith.

What is built after we get saved on this foundation of Jesus? That is our works. The works that last into eternity are the gold etc. The works that were not like that don't count, they don't make it and are not something we take with us by being rewarded for.

Once the examination is over, each person's actions will be revealed. If a preacher's words are simply empty rhetoric, their followers will abandon their faith when tested. However, if a preacher's teachings focus on the fundamental gospel and expound upon it, their followers will become devoted to Christ and able to persevere through any trial.

Once life is over you mean. You have tried to stuff all this into some little church context and make it about 'preachers' and their 'followers'.

 

[marks]

1 Corinthians 2:1
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God
1 Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:10
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
Was he not talking to that church at Corinth? I didn't see that part where it was only to some 'ministers of the gospel' like Apollos? Are we not all supposed to be ministers of the gospel?

1 Corinthians 3:5
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? The point was that Paul (or Apollos) or anyone else did not get the glory. We all play our part.


He then goes on to make it clear who he is talking to

1 Corinthians 3:12
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

What is built after we get saved on this foundation of Jesus? That is our works. The works that last into eternity are the gold etc. The works that were not like that don't count, they don't make it and are not something we take with us by being rewarded for.

Once life is over you mean. You have tried to stuff all this into some little church context and make it about 'preachers' and their 'followers'.

I think this passage is telling us that we are all building on the foundation, that we are building the temple - the church - but with what? Do we edify each other, or tear each other down? Do we build with truth or with something else?

Either we are building up someone in their spirit, or in their flesh, depending on what materials we are using, that is, what we are doing. As you say, our works.

If we build them in their spirit, then when they are transformed, those things remain, being of the Spirit. If we are building them in their flesh, that is gone, being transformed into incorruptibility.

1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 KJV
19) For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
20) For ye are our glory and joy.

Paul's crown of rejoicing is to see them in the presence of Jesus Christ when He comes. When we see the real spiritual works wrought in others through our obedience, resulting in a better resurrection for those whom we love, how shall we describe such joy?

And our obedient sacrifice to serve others in such ways results in our own better resurrection. And as we submit ourselves one to another, we can all share in this work with, in, and for each other.

Much love!