We are judged by works, not by faith

[CadyandZoe]

Not you. You don't believe in blameless living at any time, and teach it is impossible, and mock anyone who testifies they are.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Can Peter's statement be classified as instructions or observations? There are two possible ways to interpret Peter's words: 1) The Apostle is providing a guide to follow in order to achieve salvation, or 2) He is identifying certain behaviors that demonstrate God's power working within a person.

I believe that Peter was referring to the second option. According to him, God is actively working within those who are "called," and we can identify such individuals through the behaviors Peter listed.

Our identity is reflected in our actions. We have faith in Jesus because we possess character traits bestowed upon us by our creator. We add moral excellence to our faith because it is a part of who we are. We then add perseverance, self-control, and other traits because they are also a part of our identity. Most importantly, we are who we are because these traits have been generously given to us.

It's important to understand that our inherent traits are not something we consciously chose for ourselves. Rather, they were given to us by God. The traits mentioned by Peter are not requirements for salvation, but rather characteristics of those whom God has already chosen to save.

 

[Brakelite]

Our actions are not the only things that matter, what we feel in our hearts is also important. There is a significant difference between wanting to commit a sin and actually doing it. Jesus' message is that even if we hide our desire to commit adultery from others, God still sees it. Therefore, we are not judged solely on our actions, but also on our inner selves. For example, if I desire to sleep with my neighbor's wife, but do not act on it, I am still accountable for my thoughts and desires in the eyes of God.

It's important to recognize that we are not judged solely based on our actions, but rather on our character. Our actions are simply a reflection of who we are. However, it's also important to note that even if we don't do anything good or bad, God still knows our true nature.

You make a good point. I think however that even though we may, through our own strength or circumstance, refrain committing an act, the time will eventually come when circumstances are favourable, our strength compromised, and the act and our deepest desires, will eventually be realised. I don't think any human has been able to completely succeed in hiding the true impulses of his/her heart.

 

[Brakelite]

Now show me the word "imparted" in scripture.

It's called sanctification. You think you do good on your own? When we walk as Jesus walked, is that not imparted righteousness?
KJV James 1:17
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning .

Is the righteousness and the works by which you live, a gift? Therefore, imparted.

KJV Romans 5:17
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness (imparted) shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Do you believe that we are justified/accounted as righteous by faith AND works? Yes or no?
Judged by our works to determine what? See 1 Corinthians 3:11-14.

KJV James 2:17-18
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

KJV Hebrews 11:32-38
32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33 Who through faith (believed, or acted on their beliefs....?) subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy, they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth).

 

[Brakelite]

Do you believe that we are justified/accounted as righteous by faith AND works? Yes or no?
Judged by our works to determine what? See 1 Corinthians 3:11-14.

As I said previously, twice, we are saved by faith. We are judged by our works. Why are we judged by our works? Because our works reveal whether our faith is real. So. Both faith and works are essential. They are, as I said, a package deal. One cannot exist without the other.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You make a good point. I think however that even though we may, through our own strength or circumstance, refrain committing an act, the time will eventually come when circumstances are favourable, our strength compromised, and the act and our deepest desires, will eventually be realised. I don't think any human has been able to completely succeed in hiding the true impulses of his/her heart.

I agree. However, I interpret Apostle Peter's words as referring to our life as an arrow in flight. Regardless of whether we fail or succeed at any given moment, we should view our life trajectory as it moves toward the target.

 

[Brakelite]

Now show me the word "imparted" in scripture.

KJV Matthew 5:6
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

 

[Brakelite]

I agree. However, I interpret Apostle Peter's words as referring to our life as an arrow in flight. Regardless of whether we fail or succeed at any given moment, we should view our life trajectory as it moves toward the target.

Totally. One fall... One slip... Will not affect the ultimate destiny of any who are in Christ, so long as that trajectory is toward the kingdom and it's King. We will never know the actual point when many falls, slips etc have become habits and a part of our lifestyle, and that trajectory, despite warnings and prompting and pleading from the holy Spirit, has other goals, and the Spirit is grieved beyond redemption.

 

[Ghada]

No you have just quoted James alone. YOu call Paul a liar. No matter how much you protest you do not.

I call your Paul of another gospel false. Even as your gospel is not my gospel, neither is your Paul the Paul of my gospel.

We've already established that James of the Bible preaches justification with God by works. You have conveniently set aside your failed effort to justify your unbelief in all of James 2, by trying to have the justification of works in James 2 as being only with men.

You have yet to even acknowledge the fact that Abraham and Rahab are certainly recorded in the Bible as being justified by works with God, and not by men alone.

It is God who says, Now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

It wasn't Isaac that justified Abraham by his works, nor was it the spies justifying Rahab. It is God who justified them by their works,a dn these two are examples for all Christians today.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I call your Paul of another gospel false. Even as your gospel is not my gospel, neither is your Paul the Paul of my gospel.

We've already established that James of the Bible preaches justification with God by works. You have conveniently set aside your failed effort to justify your unbelief in all of James 2, by trying to have the justification of works in James 2 as being only with men.

You have yet to even acknowledge the fact that Abraham and Rahab are certainly recorded in the Bible as being justified by works with God, and not by men alone.

It is God who says, Now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

It wasn't Isaac that justified Abraham by his works, nor was it the spies justifying Rahab. It is God who justified them by their works,a dn these two are examples for all Christians today.

It is not stated by James that our works justify us. Instead, both James and Paul are in agreement that our faith is what justifies us. James is debating against those who assert that they have faith. He refers to Abraham as an illustration, not to confirm that our works justify us, but to showcase the concept that our works support the validity of our faith to others.

In other words, rather than saying we are justified BY our works, James might say we are justified IN VIEW of our works.

 

[dad]

In the eyes of God and also to men. Matthew 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

There are many men in churches today that would view works very differently. Some people would view preaching the gospel for example as extremism and illegal etc. Some churches would view extreme sin in the eyes of God, such as unnatural sexual practices and molesting the natural sexes of children and etc as good. They would view people trying to speak against that as bad. There have even been pastors arrested for feeding the poor etc (pandemic overreach laws) and many in those closed churches would support that! Some kids have been persecuted at schools for trying to stand up for bible fundamental truths and many people cheer that on, even so called believers. So...what men!? All that aside, some people simply are going to let their light shine more than others! You need to learn to separate salvation, the gift of God whereby we become sons of God, with works.
It was already pointed out that even is some people's works are burned up, they are still saved. It was shown that rewards will be more for some than others based on works. It was also shown that some people who are saved sin so badly that God has to allow them to die so that their spirit will live.

So yes we can point out any number of things that we should do, such as preach the gospel (let our light shine) but remember that failure does not mean being kicked out of His family and losing eternal life. Of course He wants us to share the good news and be loving to help others etc!

1 Corinthians 4:5 - Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of human hearts; and then praise will come to each person from God.

Bingo

The thief on the cross showed faith to Jesus and anyone else who was around to hear his words.

I would agree. But the discussion here involved a poster hinging our salvation to a life of works. As if that merited salvation and maintained salvation. So the thief on the cross was one example of someone without a whole lot of works that was still saved.

All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

Right. And if anyone does not bear fruit, He purges them. Even has some branches burned in the fire as needed. Not hell fire. The end of their lives on earth.




@Ghada "It is God who justified them by their works"

Abraham believed God and that is why he obeyed

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Ghada]

Since there are some Christians that preach against works as being part of their salvation by faith alone, but also preach judging a believers confessed faith, at some point, by their works. Then we conclude that not all Christians preaching separation of saving faith apart from works, peach the same

So, we see a doctrinal and practical split in the Christian community, that preaches being saved and justified without works, but only by faith.

The purists never judge any confessing Christian's faith by their works. Having our faith in Christ alone is always sufficient to save and justify a man with no works ever having anything to do with it.

There are other Christians who distinguish themselves from such ideological purity. They say there is a distinct difference between having faith, and having faith that saves. Since at some point they teach and practice judging one another's faith by their works, then they preach not every Christian's personal faith is that which saves the soul. They teach that not all Christians' faith alone saves. And since they judge this retroactively in a Christian's life, as judgement that they cannot have ever been saved, then they say not all Christians are saved by faith alone without works. Some Christians are not saved by judging their works, and never were saved in the first place.

This rift of course is made by judges in their Christian community, who judge the purists by their works, where some of them may be saved, and others not. I've seen this rift argued over between them. The purists are offended by any Christian saying their faith can be judged as saving faith or not, by their works.

So there are actually two distinct and different gospels pertaining to faith without works, that is preached among some Christians today.

One preaches we are forever saved by our own personal faith alone, and nothing we do has anything to do with it, so that none of our works can ever judge whether our personal faith saves or not.

Another preaches we are indeed forever saved by our personal faith alone, but only if that faith is the saving faith of Jesus Christ. And the difference between the faiths can be judged by our works. That Christian gospel preaches that we are saved by grace through saving faith only, with works judging and justifying our faith as being saving faith.

Other than the fact that this gospel of judging saving faith by works, is preached as a salvation of partial repentance only, I can totally agree with it. We are saved by grace through saving faith only, with works that are judged as being saving faith in deed and in truth.

That is a gospel that I would own as being that of Jesus Christ in the Bible. It brings both Paul and James perfectly together in being saved by saving faith only, and not by our own personal faith alone, without our works being justified as saving faith.

It confirms Paul's rebuke against being saved by works of our own righteousness without the saving faith of Jesus, as well as confirming James' rebuke of being justified by our own faith alone, without our works judged as indeed being the saving faith of Jesus.

Other than being saved and justified by our works only justifying our faith in part, with some sinful works condemning us at times, I would totally agree.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I am not declaring that a person is justified by works ONLY. I am only repeating what Scripture says: Faith WITHOUT works is dead. That means you have to have both.

I agree with Paul when he said, God will render to each one according to his deeds!! Do you agree with that statement from Paul?

I agree with all of Scripture....not the cherry-picked parts that fit my narrative!!!

So you are implying that I am cherry picking.

I say what Scripture says that being saved by faith alone in the finished work of Jesus produces good works which justifies our faith.

Before we can do righteousness we must become righteous and Jessus is our righteousness.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Ghada simply quoted James soooooo wouldn't it be James who declared Paul a liar? I don't see where @Ghada called Paul a liar.

If ghada agrees with James, then He makes Paul a Liar. I know what James is declaring and it is not in contradiction with being justified by faith alone.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

How so. Are you saying we can be saved by God but not justified by Christ?

Once you recant I will answer.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Of course. God speaks many times of the righteous many forsaking His righteousness, and doing evil. He also speaks of the unrighteous man repenting and doing righteousness.

Are you saying no one can go from being unrighteous to being righteous? That's denying even your gospel of faith alone.


But true.


You don't believe you are saved by your faith only, that is apart from the works you do?

I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about anymore. Unless you are saying you are saved apart from your faith and your works.

That would be the only way to deny your saving faith is without works.

Unless you are saying there is a difference between have the faith the saves you, and your daily faith that you live by. Is that it?


Then why has He not become all your righteousness and not just most? Are you saying you are now doing His righteousness at all times, and not only sinning less of the time?



So you are doing His righteousness now and not sinning against Him?

I can guess your above answers. Yes, you still are sinning, and you call it when you sin. You are not doing His righteousness at all times. He is not become all righteousness to you, but only in part.

Your doctrine is based entirely upon a faith of yours alone. It has nothing to do with what you are actually doing in life. The words you use for 'righteousness' 'made righteous' etc... are doctrinal only, that have no bearing on how you live.

They are just doctrinal words you ascribe to yourself because you believe it, no matter how you are living at the time. It has no foundation in the gospel of Jesus Christ, where only those doing His righteousness are righteous.




The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

Your gospel is not the Bible. He does forsake us while we are sinning. That's because he doesn't come and sup with us and the devil, while we are sinning with the devil. (2 Cor 6)

And afterward by His grace we can certainly practice 1 John 1:9.

And 2 John 1 says if we sin, not when. Your gospel is not entirely from the words of the Bible. Like your righteousness, it's only in part, some of the time. Maybe even most of the time, but certainly not all the time like the blessed of the Bible.

You preach an imperfect gospel of less sinning only, and you make doctrine to justify it. You use Bible words to apply to yourself by your own faith alone, when the Bible says we only have them by doing them.

Once you recant from reading into my responses things not there, I will answer.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

On earth with temptations to overcome, yes. That is the Bible teaching and example of Jesus, that we ought to walk as He walked.

The Bible also teaches the sinless perfection of God on the throne, that is without any temptation at all. (James 1) We only arrive at that after being resurrected unto life.

But of course, the 'we', are only those walking as He walked in the end. Not those unlike Jesus sinning by temptation unto the grave.

Those Christians that believe the earthly sinless perfection of Jesus' example, is not possible until the resurrection, will never experience it. They are basically trying to believe they will only become perfectly newborn babes converted in Christ after the grave.

We must become born again with all things now becoming new and of God in this life, nor never.

For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Heed Pauls warning:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

James 2 says we are justified with God by works, and you don't believe that simple enough statement. So, I'm not particularly impressed with your judgment of my understanding of the Bible. Afterall, I'm the one taking God's words literally.

And you reject Pauls multiple statements we are justified by faith alone. So your bible knowledge is puny.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No problem. So long as you are preaching believing is work, so that we are saved and justified by faith with work, and not by any faith that is not work, then that is fine with me. I agree.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version

​

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Colossians 3:2-4

King James Version

​

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 5

King James Version

​

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 8:

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Romans 10:9-13

King James Version

​

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This is what i BELIEVE AND TEACH, WHICH STANDS IN CONTRADICTION TO YOUR GOSPEL.

HERE IS WHAT i BELIEVE ABOUT WHEN A BELIEVER SINS:

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:9

King James Version

​

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You need to learn about teh mercy, grace and love of God for His children whom He has saved once for all time.

 

[Ghada]

I disagree. I do not believe you. Not for a minute.

Of course not. Your heart's unbelief in being able to be like Jesus and walk as He walked, is well documented.

However I certainly do believe you when testifying how you do keep sinning, at least sometimes, and that you believe you will to the grave, since your heart doesn't believe it is possible to do otherwise.

You claim to be "without sin and pure and perfect" right now!

That was then. Right now, still the same. No apologies necessary from me.

By the way if we are to forgive brothers and sisters for their trespasses, how it it they have sins to forgive at all?!

By doing them of course. No one is preaching a gospel, where all believers are now living holy and blamelessly, but only those doing so at the time. That is why 2 John 1 tells us that if we do sin, then we can repent and be forgiven and reconciled to the Father, just as anyone coming to the Advocate and propitiation for the whole world.

Thet begs the question, if people imagine themselves to be without sin, what do they think of the rest of the believers in the world who make no such dishonest pretense?

You make no such dishonest pretence, and I believe you. You also however falsely accuse all Christians of only pretending, if they don't live sinfully like you.

Our discussion of you unrighteously judging all Christians as yourself, has run it's course. You have to understand, just because you are a professed double hearted Christian for life, doesn't mean there are no single hearted Christians in life today.

 

[Ghada]

In other words you seem to be saying you barely made it as perfect and pure and sinless today, and are basically walking on glass because who knows if you might make some little mistake and lose your salvation and face hellfire tomorrow!?

No, it only means not being high minded, but continuing in the fear of the Lord. I've already shown you how we have assurance in 2 Peter 1, that if we add to our faith and do those things necessary to ensure we never fall. You also show repeatedly how you reject all such nonsense talk of the Bible.

False. Believers who try and possibly sometimes fail are doing the best they can.

I've also already noted for you how your gospel is your own conversion, where you are doing the best you can. That is not the conversion of God where we do what Jesus can.

You don't want to do what Jesus can, because at this time you don't want to live your Christian life without the pleasure of sinning again. I understand it, and used to practice it, but that is in the past for me now. Just not for you.

Maybe some time in the future, if the longsuffering of God continues with you, you could repent once for all He commands. It's just that you this gospel of yours that saves you by just doing the best you can, and not doing what Jesus can. I never bought into that doctrine of yours.

2 Cor is in the context of idol worship.

This is a new one. Not only is your Paul the chiefest of sinners, but now your Paul is an idol worshipper by exhorting Christians to cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of the spirit and flesh?

I suppose I could sort of see how you would conclude that, after listening to you for so long. You would say that the very idea of 'thinking' we can cleanse our hearts of lust and our lives from works of the flesh, is boastful idolatry of our own power and holiness.

It never occurs to you that the Bible gospel and promise of Jesus Christ by God is that if we do repent and believe Him, that He is the One that does give such power to them that are wholly newborn of Him.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

You really don't have a heart for believing anything in the Bible, that does not agree with your own faith alone and what you like believing about yourself. As well as believing all Christians must be like yourself also.

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Your Paul here would probably be saying this means we can do anything we want in life, whether evil or good, and Christ will still strengthen us unto resurrection unto life. Correct?

So people that were involved in demon worship of idols needed to come out of that and be saved. When we come to Jesus we do need to be sincere and depart from our old lives etc. If any were pressured or tempted to keep on engaging in idol worship, they are reminded here to cleanse themselves from that.

The Bible says all sinful rebellion against Him is idolatry and witchcraft.

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.

What you are showing here by exempting yourself from needing to be purified of all filthiness of the spirit and flesh, is that you think that is only for others who were 'really' sinful, unlike you.

And so your Christian conversion and religion is simply of becoming even a gooder sinner than before. That is the mindset of the righteous, that Jesus cannot save. He can only call real sinners to repentance, not the good sinners such as yourself, that don't think your old sinning ever stunk so much, and still doesn't.

This does not mean that they suddenly are pure as snow and without any mistakes or issues.

Not in your gospel. Your conversion is never wholly pure, because your heart never believes in it, because you've never repented and looked for Jesus to do it in your soul.

Your gospel doesn't believe in being wholly and purely newborn with all things now being of God, until after the grave. In the meantime, you just muddle along trying to do the best that you can, but never what Jesus can. It's a twist on the classic error of trying to dress up ourselves a little better and better, before allowing God to make us born again.