We are judged by works, not by faith

[Ghada]

That would be those covered in His blood,

The Lamb's blood does not cover anything, but only washes all past sinning away. It was the blood of bulls and goats that only covered sinful works.

Not those who think their poop doesn't smell.

That would be those Christians saying they are no more condemned while sinning.

I see. So God chose some evil person to fight Goliath and helped him? David's prayers were not heard while he was a young shepherd?

I never respond to people changing words, in order to make them look ridiculous. When you show yourself dishonest, then I just move on. It's not all the time, so I don't just move on from you as a whole.

There were two Pauls now?

Actually there is only one Paul in the Bible. There are Christians such as yourself that teach another sinful kind of Paul.

No. Nor some perfect puritan.

Your unbelief in walking as Jesus walked, and judging all Christians as sinful as you, is already established enough. I'll move on from pointing it out anymore.

I will say however in all fairness, that you probably don't understand how you are mocking the righteousness of God, as well as Christians doing His righteousness at all times.

You probably think such last days mockers and scoffers are only unbelievers mocking Jesus Himself. This is not true. The mockers and scoffers that Paul, Peter, and Jude speak of, are of some Christian believers in the context of falling away from God's righteousness (2 Thess 2). They also begin to mock it and those doing it, as being 'perfect Puritans' and 'good little sisters', etc...

"Paul called himself “chief of sinners”

Once again that's the other Paul of another gospel that you preach, in order to justify your own continued sinning.

This self-identification is the discovery of every person whose eyes have been opened, whose conscience has been awakened, and whose heart has been pricked by the Holy Spirit.

Self-identification is what self-improvement religion teaches. It's not the pure and perfect conversion of Jesus Christ.

It is the humble posture

Yes. Posture. The Bible calls it posturing in the faith. Paul specifically calls it a wilful humility of those who think talking about how they continue sinning as Christians, is being 'humble', rather than being condemned by their own words.

If your idea were correct Paul would have said 'I WAS the chief of sinners'

True. That is the context. As a chiefest sinner, Paul spoke of being a persecutor and destroyer of the faith of Christ. Christians justifying themselves by calling Paul the chiefest of sinners as an apostle, are saying he was still persecuting the church and destroying the faith.

The apostle Paul of the Bible was not.

Why say it to me? Address the issues raised in discussion here, rather than to some supposed 'others'

Fair enough. I just repeat what you say about yourself and what you teach, without all your posturing humility.

One such example is that you talk and teach about how your works are still filthy rags, and so when you are rebuked for still living filthy, you get offended by it, as though you aren't still living filthy.

You see how I repeat your own words without the doctrinal self-justifying humility, and you get upset by your own words.

That's how it is with you, and I've seen it also with others. From now on, since you rightly demand it, I'll just speak of you and not of others. Unless I am reporting something others teach, that you do not agree with. An example of that is some Christians teach the resurrection is past.

 

[mailmandan]

Hey mailmandan,

I think you are saying that when a man has faith in Christ, he will do good works. However, if a man only has "rightly understood" faith, they will still be saved.

Respectfully Mary

There is no such thing as authentic faith that produces no works at all. That would not be genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. Faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone points to the fact this faith "trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation" (Romans 4:5-6) and is not merely an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone "barren of works." (James 2:14)

 

[dad]

Ok, thanks. Just asking. Some Christians do teach the resurrection is past. Paul had to deal with that long ago in 2 Tim 2.

They use it a part of their already saved forever doctrine. They also teach reigning with Christ now in heaven. It's a subset of the amil doctrine.

Not guilty on that one:)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your men have lied to you. Scripture has OTHER instructions on how to be saved, including works:

confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

everyone who acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God;

“everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

6 For he will repay according to each one’s deeds:

a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So you also believe Paul lied. Okay.

Yes a believers works will be judged. But not at the great white throne judgment but at the Bema seat judgment. OUr sins will not be brough tup for they have been fully judged and punished in Jesus.

But let me give you Pauls declaration of salvation once again:

Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version

​

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 5

King James Version

​

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 4

King James Version

​

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

We are justified by faith in Jesus and that shows in the good works He foreordained we walk in. there is nothing to boast or say I helped at all!

 

[Marymog]

So you also believe Paul lied. Okay.

Yes a believers works will be judged. But not at the great white throne judgment but at the Bema seat judgment. OUr sins will not be brough tup for they have been fully judged and punished in Jesus.

But let me give you Pauls declaration of salvation once again:

Ephesians 2:8-10​

​

King James Version​

​

​

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 5​

​

King James Version​

​

​

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 4​

​

King James Version​

​

​

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

We are justified by faith in Jesus and that shows in the good works He foreordained we walk in. there is nothing to boast or say I helped at all!

Ummmm......when did I say that Paul lied? Can you give me that post #?????

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Those who claim to live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

I can't even begin to imagine how their minds work to justify their sins so to make them not sin. I hate talking about sin, for God hates sion and we also hate it though we fail from time to time. but they seem to have no clue as tot he grace and mercy of and patience of God with His children.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ummmm......when did I say that Paul lied? Can you give me that post #?????

By declaring a person is justified by works you declare Paul a liar (even though you did not write those words) based on the verses I just posted previously.

You did not have to explicitly say it, but your stance shows you believe he lied.

 

[Marymog]

By declaring a person is justified by works you declare Paul a liar (even though you did not write those words) based on the verses I just posted previously.

You did not have to explicitly say it, but your stance shows you believe he lied.

Thanks Ronald.....Now I better understand what you meant.

I am not declaring that a person is justified by works ONLY. I am only repeating what Scripture says: Faith WITHOUT works is dead. That means you have to have both.

I agree with Paul when he said, God will render to each one according to his deeds!! Do you agree with that statement from Paul?

I agree with all of Scripture....not the cherry-picked parts that fit my narrative!!!

 

[dad]

The Lamb's blood does not cover anything, but only washes all past sinning away. It was the blood of bulls and goats that only covered sinful works.

And that represented...what?

That would be those Christians saying they are no more condemned while sinning.

Better than those sinning while saying they aren't.

Actually there is only one Paul in the Bible. There are Christians such as yourself that teach another sinful kind of Paul.

Remind us of the verse that says he was sinless?

Your unbelief in walking as Jesus walked, and judging all Christians as sinful as you, is already established enough. I'll move on from pointing it out anymore.

Have you asked your wife if you are sinless and 100% pure always? Co workers? Anyone at all?

I will say however in all fairness, that you probably don't understand how you are mocking the righteousness of God, as well as Christians doing His righteousness at all times.

Believers try. And sometimes fail. They are still sons. It is not mocking God to realize He asks us to forgive brothers their sins! That tells us they have some.

You probably think such last days mockers and scoffers are only unbelievers mocking Jesus Himself.

Largely, yes. A falling away from the faith. Also, if a church flies the rainbow flag and etc I consider that mocking God.

This is not true. The mockers and scoffers that Paul, Peter, and Jude speak of, are of some Christian believers in the context of falling away from God's righteousness (2 Thess 2). They also begin to mock it and those doing it, as being 'perfect Puritans' and 'good little sisters', etc...

Actually Paul warned brethren that in the last days men would fall away.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I don't see him saying THEY would fall away?

Self-identification is what self-improvement religion teaches. It's not the pure and perfect conversion of Jesus Christ.

No, in this case Paul identified himself as a sinner. Chief of them actually. He said am. Not was. He did not count himself (as you apparently do) as having attained!

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

So those gentiles when they work cannot attain salvation. It is not by works.
The Jew also had not attained by works.

Romans 9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Even saved Paul had not attained perfection as you seem to claim!

Philippians 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

In other words Paul tried but could never attain perfection in this life. He called himself wretched!! Does that sound pure and perfect to you?

Here it is yet again, clear as a bell


Phil 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

So we are not perfect yet in this life and in our present bodies.

True. That is the context. As a chiefest sinner, Paul spoke of being a persecutor and destroyer of the faith of Christ. Christians justifying themselves by calling Paul the chiefest of sinners as an apostle, are saying he was still persecuting the church and destroying the faith.

No. Not those sins! Yet he used the present tense so there must have been some imperfection somewhere.

One such example is that you talk and teach about how your works are still filthy rags, and so when you are rebuked for still living filthy, you get offended by it, as though you aren't still living filthy.

No I don't. I say works are a result of Jesus in us and wonderful. That is what is expected and required. Yet even if someone's works prove a waste of time, yet are they saved still. Works He does in us are not bad! In fact we are rewarded by them one day by Him.
So don't pretend Paul said anything else or that there are 2 Pauls etc.

 

[Marymog]

No you have just quoted James. So you make Paul a liar when he declared we are justified by faith alone.

@Ghada simply quoted James soooooo wouldn't it be James who declared Paul a liar? I don't see where @Ghada called Paul a liar.

 

[dad]

Thanks Ronald.....Now I better understand what you meant.

I am not declaring that a person is justified by works ONLY. I am only repeating what Scripture says: Faith WITHOUT works is dead. That means you have to have both.

I agree with Paul when he said, God will render to each one according to his deeds!! Do you agree with that statement from Paul?

I agree with all of Scripture....not the cherry-picked parts that fit my narrative!!!

Thank God we are not saved by our deeds!

 

[dad]

There is no such thing as authentic faith that produces no works at all. That would not be genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. Faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone points to the fact this faith "trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation" (Romans 4:5-6) and is not merely an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone "barren of works." (James 2:14)

Can you cite a few works the thief on the cross did?

 

[mailmandan]

Can you cite a few works the thief on the cross did?

From scripture we see that the thief on the cross rebuked the other thief, admitted his guilt, defended the Lord and asked Jesus to remember him when He comes into his kingdom, demonstrating he had faith in Jesus.

In Luke 23:43, we read that the thief on the cross said this to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” In verse 43, Jesus said to him “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

In Matthew 27:39-43, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests' scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing. *Yet, moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved. (Luke 23:40-43) There was not enough time to accomplish very many works in a single day, yet the thief acknowledged his guilt, defended Jesus and placed his faith in Jesus and was saved. That was enough.

In Matthew 12:37, Jesus said - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the condition of our hearts. Words are evidence for, or against being in a state of righteousness, as we see below.

Luke 23:39 - Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.” - by your words you will be condemned.

Luke 23:40 - But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” - by your words you will be justified. 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

 

[dad]

From scripture we see that the thief on the cross rebuked the other thief, admitted his guilt, defended the Lord and asked Jesus to remember him when He comes into his kingdom, demonstrating he had faith in Jesus.

In Luke 23:43, we read that the thief on the cross said this to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” In verse 43, Jesus said to him “Assuredly, I say to you, today yo

u will be with Me in Paradise.”

In Matthew 27:39-43, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests' scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing. *Yet, moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved. (Luke 23:40-43) There was not enough time to accomplish very many works in a single day, yet the thief acknowledged his guilt, defended Jesus and placed his faith in Jesus and was saved. That was enough.

In Matthew 12:37, Jesus said - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the condition of our hearts. Words are evidence for, or against being in a state of righteousness, as we see below.

Luke 23:39 - Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.” - by your words you will be condemned.

Luke 23:40 - But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” - by your words you will be justified. 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

OK, but since you said "no such thing as authentic faith that produces no works at all." the thief came to mind. Then there are deathbed conversions etc.

1 Cor 3:
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

WE see that even if someone's works are shown to be wasted time, they are still saved. So it comes down to rewards are based on works and some will get more than others.

 

[mailmandan]

OK, but since you said "no such thing as authentic faith that produces no works at all." the thief came to mind. Then there are deathbed conversions etc.

1 Cor 3:
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

WE see that even if someone's works are shown to be wasted time, they are still saved. So it comes down to rewards are based on works and some will get more than others.

I'm talking about someone who makes a profession of faith then shows no evidence at all by works that his faith is genuine. The thief on the cross showed evidence of faith just before he died. Yes, works are tested, and rewards are given to believers for works that are compared with gold, silver, and precious stones, yet not all of our works may have been done for the right purpose with the right motivation, hence, burned for those works which are compared with wood, grass, straw.

 

[dad]

I'm talking about someone who makes a profession of faith then shows no evidence at all by works that his faith is genuine.

Ok but I might ask, evidence to who, and in whose eyes? What some men judge as nothing that they can see, God might judge as something else. So it gets down to judge not. We do not see and know all. Some men would have thought the widow offering a penny was terrible compared to the stash of cash the rich man gave. How about a parent's prayers? How would I know what prayers people have? Etc etc. Some might think that a billionaire's foundation was a wonderful work for God. Others might think it was a scam that supported abortion and other evil causes. God is the judge and He knows the heart. He also might know that some are late bloomers compared to others. None of that affects the fact that a saved person is His child and bound for eternity.

The thief on the cross showed evidence of faith just before he died.

To who? If I were a passer by I might have missed that and accused the thief of being a horrible person that did no good while hanging there. And maybe it is safe to say that some people simply do not have a lot of works and won't be getting great rewards compared to others. The point in the discussion here that bears focusing on, is that some posters hinge salvation on works. Both to get saved and stay saved.

Yes, works are tested, and rewards are given to believers for works that are compared with gold, silver, and precious stones, yet not all of our works may have been done for the right purpose with the right motivation, hence, burned for those works which are compared with wood, grass, straw.

Right. In some cases that might be almost everything. Shameful. Better to be raised shining like the sun and have Jesus say to us 'well done, you good and faithful servant'

 

[Ghada]

If people willing sin after really being saved, of course Jesus deals with them.

The same as He deals with all willful sinners. The Father is not a respecter of person in judging our works.

David told us that the judgments of the Lord are better than gold and to be desired more than gold!

For those keeping His judgments.

Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

And commandments. It's the same thing with the Lord.

His dealing with us a son is PART of being saved!

It's part of being judged righteous and justified with God or not.

We should make a difference between people like the phony Pharisees who boasted being of God, and the actually saved folks who sincerely came to Jesus!

Which are them keeping His commandments and doing His will from the heart.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Pharisee Christians keep His commandments by will power alone, which you are not at all guilty of. Sinful Christians such as yourself, by your own testimony, do not always keep His commandments, and so you trust in your own faith alone to save you while sinning against God.

The verse above seems directed at the religious phonies not the saved.

Exactly. Those Christians such as yourself that say you are saved by your own faith alone, including while you are sinning. It's the Christian doctrine of no more being condemned while sinning. You believe and teach your faith covers you from righteous judgment of God, in those times you are sinning again.

Some Christian sinners?? Ha Except you, right?

As I agreed with you, we'll keep it between us. It is you the Christian sinner. That does not include me. I am neither a double minded Christian sinner, nor do I teach it to others as you do.

Jesus comes in when we are saved and works on us from the inside. That is how our hearts become pure!

Are you saying you no more lust with the heart? And so you are living holy and blameless without corruption by lust from the heart?

 

[Ghada]

Indeed we should walk worthy of the great gift we have received. That does not mean walk fearfully thinking He may take back His gift at the first mistake!

Sinning with the devil in works of the flesh is not a mistake in the judgment of God. We've been through this ad nauseum before. I'll not bother correcting it anymore.

Some sinful Christians make hell less hot, and sin less sinful, in order to try separate themselves by doctrine alone from the world, while doing the same things of the world.

The only difference between sinning believers and sinning unbelievers, is some sinning believers make a doctrine to separate themselves from the impartial righteous judgement of the Father according to our works. That Christian faith and doctrine alone ends in the grave.

 

[Ghada]

Absolutely false. Salvation is clearly not by deeds that we have done.

True, not before coming to Jesus by faith.

It is the gift of God,

His faith is the free gift by hearing alone. His salvation and justification is obtained by obeying His faith and doing His word.

Jesus has wonderful judgments for His people. Not to be feared

As I have said before, the Christian doctrine of saving faith of the Lord takes away the fear of the Lord from the heart.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

but cherished.

You cherish having your sinning judged by God as sinful?

The judgment for the unsaved is another matter. Those who know Him do not conflate the two.

Those who know His doctrine in the Bible do not separate the two. Any man doing an unrighteous work of the flesh is judged unrighteous by the Father without respect of persons nor personal beliefs.

 

[Ghada]

In a general sense, a "work" refers to any task that requires effort or energy. Thus our thoughts and intentions are not considered "works".

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

According to Jesus, lusting takes enough will and energy to be condemned as committing sinful works.

I've shown this spiritual truth from the Bible about God's definition of works before. All I can do is quote the Bible for you. I can't make you take the words seriously.

A common error of believers is to define words by man's definitions, and not by God's in the Bible.

God uses man's words, but He does not define them the same, because He is Spirit and His doctrine is spiritual.

The natural mind that you are speaking from now, doesn't perceive the things of the Spirit. God says in plain words that He judges our thoughts and intents of the heart as works. Jesus calls them the first works of our spirit (Rev 2), that He sees, which lead to our bodily works, that men see.

On the other hand, a "good" work is any action that benefits others. For instance, Jesus mentioned three specific "works" that are considered worthy of eternal life. These include giving a glass of water to one of his disciples, visiting a disciple in prison, and providing clothing to a naked disciple. Do these examples align with your understanding of good works?

Outwardly yes, just as Jesus says. It's called being kind and neighborly to all men in need, when we have power to do so.