We are judged by works, not by faith

[Ghada]

I was hoping that @Ghada would answer so that I might understand what is at stake for Ghada. What is the story behind this thread?

What do you mean at stake. I missed it.

The story behind this thread and any thing I post, is what I believe the Bible teaches. Like you, I know full well how there are many Christian gospels and doctrines, out of which each of us may claim as our own.

All I do is to endeavor to repeat the words of the Bible, and if necessary show any Christian doctrine that differs from the Bible. If someone can show how my gospel differs from plain verses of the Bible, which I have been, then I welcome and acknowledge it to be corrected. It only makes our teaching more perfect.

This thread simply shows that because the Father judges all men, including believers, by our works without respect of persons (2 Peter 1), then our justification with God is dependent upon our works being judged as righteous and pleasing to Him.

A follow up teaching is that such works justified by the Father, can only be those done for the good of ourselves and our neighbors from a purified heart of Christ. James 2 says not doing good is not justified with God. The Bible also teaches that all sinful works of the flesh are of course not judged as justified by God. But the Bible goes further by teaching any good works done without Jesus' pure heart of faith, are likewise not judged as righteous with God, but are the filthy rags of man's own good will and/or religious practices.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Doing good for others of course is not wrong to do, and anyone on the receiving end ought be thankful, but God has foreordained from the beginning, that only through the faith of Jesus purifying us inwardly, can any good works of man justify us with the Father.

 

[Ghada]

Biblically. You said this "Those Christians that say they are saved, or even the whole world are saved, because Jesus died on the cross, are not teaching the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ in the Bible."

True. Do you then believe all men in hell, on earth, and yet to come will all be saved in the end, because Jesus died on the cross. Some Christians teach that. They even preach the devil restored into heaven again, so long as that ensures they and his other children will be restored with him.

Do you believe that? If not, then what's your problem?

Aren't we? I had explained many time once saved always saved. How could anyone be on thin ice regarding salvation?

You can be on thin ice biblically when you have no support for something.

I see, so your warning is only of doctrinal error. By your 'pal' comment, no doubt you also take it personally. Which is fine. Afterall, if we believe what we preach from the heart, then it becomes our gospel, just like Paul.

So you remain true to your gospel of saving faith, that is without works having anything to do with being saved by God. You do not believe any beleiving Christian can be judged as saved or not by their works. Jesus doesn't agree (Matthew 18:17), but at least you're not a hypocrite like a few others that teach your gospel.

There are some Christians teaching your gospel, that do believe at some point any believing Christian can be judged by their works, if they get too bad, or never get good enough. I'm not sure what line they draw for sinning 'less enough', but then that's their gospel and judgment.

In any case, someone teaching the soap you teach can hardly be taken very seriously about warnings of being on thin ice, even just doctrinally. I see that more as a personal grudge for being disagreed with. 'Warnings' from you are still like a little cymbol tinkling in a cute breeze, without a hint of smoke behind it. Kind of like your faith without works doctrine. :)

Nonetheless, I honor your faithfulness to your doctrine. I of course disagree with any doctrine that can be shown to plainly differ with the Bible, but then we already know that.

 

[dad]

True. Do you then believe all men in hell, on earth, and yet to come will all be saved in the end, because Jesus died on the cross.

The idea with the gospel is that anyone that wants can repent and come to Him.

I see, so your warning is only of doctrinal error. By your 'pal' comment, no doubt you also take it personally. Which is fine. Afterall, if we believe what we preach from the heart, then it becomes our gospel, just like Paul.

Don't get sore that not all people swallow your works trip on again off again salvation pill.

So you remain true to your gospel of saving faith, that is without works having anything to do with being saved by God.

Absollutely. Our works are likf filthy mentrous rags and not anywhere near good enough to save us. That is why Jesus died. Not for nothing, just so that He could sit on the sidelines and watch you work your way into heaven.

You do not believe any beleiving Christian can be judged as saved or not by their works.

Not saved by works. Christians will be rewarded according to their works. Nothing to do with salvation.

Jesus doesn't agree (Matthew 18:17), but at least you're not a hypocrite like a few others that teach your gospel.

Again you try to use a verse out of context.
Matthew 18:15
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

That has nothing to do with what the bible says about basics like salvation.

There are some Christians teaching your gospel, that do believe at some point any believing Christian can be judged by their works, if they get too bad, or never get good enough. I'm not sure what line they draw for sinning 'less enough', but then that's their gospel and judgment.

Not my problem what some believe. We are not saved by works regardless of anything people say or think. That is His word. As I explained if some believer really went too far and sinned too greatly, God might have to kill them in order that their spirit live. In most cases simple guidance and correction suffice.

Kind of like your faith without works doctrine.

I don't have one of those. Be honest. After we are saved He works in us and helps us bear fruit. Works are great. They just do not keep us saved or save us.
That is God's truth and what the bible teaches.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What do you mean at stake. I missed it.

I value your assessment of the significance of the Bible and your commitment to the Gospel's veracity. I understand that your post reflects your beliefs about the Bible's teachings. I commend your bravery in sharing your opinions on potentially contentious subjects.

I understand that you brought up the different Christian "gospels" and "doctrines" that exist, and I agree. When I asked about the importance of the topic at hand, I was essentially wondering which doctrine is relevant to your concern. Knowing this will help me provide a more focused and precise response.

As an example, Catholics have a different view than Protestants on the idea of "Faith Alone" as it suggests that faith alone is not enough for salvation. I think that Luthor was reacting to the Catholic concept of penance. In Catholicism, confessing sins to a priest and receiving absolution is a sacrament. In some cases, absolution is only granted after demonstrating repentance through certain actions. The sinner must perform an act to make up for their wrongdoing and "atone" or "expiate" for their sins.

Protestants may question the idea of penance, as they believe that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was enough to atone for our sins. The acts of the penitent are seen as unnecessary and a lack of faith. It is not expected of us to bear the burden of our own sins, as both the Father and the Son have already paid the price for us.

There are certain actions called "works of repentance" that may seem harmless, but I have reservations about the double-mindedness associated with penance. Prayers, offerings, acts of kindness, serving our neighbors, voluntarily denying ourselves, and making sacrifices are actions that should be done for their own sake, not as a means of earning God's favor. Righteousness should always be pursued for its own sake, as it has inherent value. However, certain "works" of penance such as self-punishment, self-mortification, and self-abasement are repugnant, go against the Gospel message, and are anti-life.

Doing good for others of course is not wrong to do, and anyone on the receiving end ought be thankful, but God has foreordained from the beginning, that only through the faith of Jesus purifying us inwardly, can any good works of man justify us with the Father.

I agree. One might say that we are saved by "proper inwardness."

 

[Ghada]

I know thy works,

What exactly is the first thing Jesus says to the churches? I know thy faith?

No. I know thy works,

Jesus never once speaks of any church's faith without first knowing their works.

Jesus does not see nor know the faith of any man without their work. And not only that, but the Father also judges the works to justify them as being done by the faith of His Son from the heart.

When Jesus speaks of faith to the churches, He speaks of their faithfulness, not just their faith alone.

Not only does the Father judge our works to justify or condemn us, the Son doesn't even know of any faith of ours without first knowing the works.

The Christian gospel of saving faith alone, that thinks Jesus sees our faith without or around our works, is not the Bible gospel of Jesus Christ and the judgment of the Father.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is true. And I have repeatedly quoted Bible that does not agree with your doctrine of being made righteous without doing righteousness.

No you have just quoted James. So you make Paul a liar when he declared we are justified by faith alone.

This is true, which is why you are not a hypocrite in practise. You believe in a Christian life with continued sinning, and you do it by your own confession. That is why you prefer to preach a gospel of separating your saving faith from the life you live.

Now you have made youself a liar. for I do not . I know believers will sin because we live in a body of sin and death. but I do nto promote nor condone sin.

But before I answer anything else from you, do you believe one must be sinlessly perfect in thought word and deed?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I don't disagree with Bible truth, but only show by the Bible why I disagree with your truth you believe in.

Well my truth is quoted directly from Scripture. Y0ou rely on James alone when I gave you several quotes.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The gospel preaches the Christian life of going to sin no more with Jesus.

Your heart doesn't believe that, and so by your own unbelief and confession of continued sinning, you preach a gospel of your own faith alone. that you always keep doctrinally separated from your works. While sinning again, you believe your doctrine that you are still justified with Christ.

So you do believe one must live sinlessly perfect or else they are......... something bad. You are believing in heresy and false doctrine. And by promoting it, you are presenting a gospel Paul calls anathema.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I know thy works,

What exactly is the first thing Jesus says to the churches? I know thy faith?

No. I know thy works,

Jesus never once speaks of any church's faith without first knowing their works.

Jesus does not see nor know the faith of any man without their work. And not only that, but the Father also judges the works to justify them as being done by the faith of His Son from the heart.

When Jesus speaks of faith to the churches, He speaks of their faithfulness, not just their faith alone.

Not only does the Father judge our works to justify or condemn us, the Son doesn't even know of any faith of ours without first knowing the works.

The Christian gospel of saving faith alone, that thinks Jesus sees our faith without or around our works, is not the Bible gospel of Jesus Christ and the judgment of the Father.

Were you going to give some examples of "works"? I'm asking because I have been reading your conversations with @dad and @Ronald Nolette and I can't disagree with their perspective.

If all you are saying is that the faith of a particular individual remains unknown without actions that are indicative of faith, then okay. We all get that. But your picture is incomplete and not well-defined. I'd like to give you an example that might illustrate what I mean.

Suppose a young Christian woman falls victim to botulism and must be placed on an iron lung machine. This renders her immobile and unable to do any work at all. All she can do is breathe and look up at the ceiling. After she dies, she finds herself in heaven, and as she arrives, she hears cheers and shouts of praise and approval from the angels and fellow believers. Why the praise? She didn't do a thing.

Why the praise? She didn't complain once. She never got discouraged. She never lost hope. She remained positive and resolute that God had a good purpose for her situation. She accepted her condition and situation with quietness and humility. Are such things "works" in your view?

 

[Grailhunter]

The people that believe in the license to sin are quick to accuse those that know the truth that they are saying that people have to be perfect to be saved. Lie after Lie so many times I have seen it. Satan is a liar. Satan is the backer of the OSAS and Calvinist beliefs, a trophy on his shelf.

All through the New Testament Christ and the Apostles warned Christians of the ramifications of sinning. Certainly Christians are blessed with the privilege of asking Christ for forgiveness but the OSAS and Calvinist crowd think Christ is a fool. And Satan does a dance because he knows they are passing this on to their kids so they go to Hell too. Christ is no fool and He expects you to learn from your mistakes not come to Him with the same sins over and over again....Sinner forecast Sizzle! Sizzle!

You can be judged to Hell because of your sins and you can be judged to Hell for not helping those in need.

 

[dad]

I know thy works,

What exactly is the first thing Jesus says to the churches? I know thy faith?

No. I know thy works,

Jesus never once speaks of any church's faith without first knowing their works.

Jesus does not see nor know the faith of any man without their work. And not only that, but the Father also judges the works to justify them as being done by the faith of His Son from the heart.

When Jesus speaks of faith to the churches, He speaks of their faithfulness, not just their faith alone.

Not only does the Father judge our works to justify or condemn us, the Son doesn't even know of any faith of ours without first knowing the works.

The Christian gospel of saving faith alone, that thinks Jesus sees our faith without or around our works, is not the Bible gospel of Jesus Christ and the judgment of the Father.

We are sons. If your son took the wrong job, against your advice would you want eternal flames for him? The wicked are judged for not being sons. Sons are rewarded according to works. Work does not make a son a son! Nor does it keep a son a son. A son is a son is a son.

 

[Marymog]

Jesus saves me forever apart from any works.

Your men have lied to you. Scripture has OTHER instructions on how to be saved, including works:

confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

everyone who acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God;

“everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

6 For he will repay according to each one’s deeds:

a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[mailmandan]

So you do believe one must live sinlessly perfect or else they are......... something bad. You are believing in heresy and false doctrine. And by promoting it, you are presenting a gospel Paul calls anathema.

Those who claim to live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

 

[MatthewG]

Your men have lied to you. Scripture has OTHER instructions on how to be saved, including works:

confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

everyone who acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God;

“everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

6 For he will repay according to each one’s deeds:

a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

MaryMog,

This reminds me of Abraham.

If he didnt obet out of love for God;

God gave him a son, and God asked him for his son but stops him and he was gonna send his Word whom would become his Son, who would willingly decide to sacrfice his own life and God would raise him again.

Abraham may have believed even if he killed his Son God could raise him up again if he can “make a dead womb” alive.

The hebrews was different but Abraham had faith, and did what God said.

“And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22‬:‭1‬-‭13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Genesis 22:1-13 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, a | King James Version (KJV) | Down

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, a

bible.com

 

[mailmandan]

Well my truth is quoted directly from Scripture. You rely on James alone when I gave you several quotes.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Man is saved through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone (apart from the merit of works) yet authentic faith does not remain alone (apart from the presence of works). This is not hard to understand. It's just hard for people who erroneously embrace salvation by faith AND works to ACCEPT.

 

[Marymog]

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Man is saved through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone (apart from the merit of works) yet authentic faith does not remain alone (apart from the presence of works). This is not hard to understand. It's just hard for people who erroneously embrace salvation by faith AND works to ACCEPT.

Hey mailmandan,

I think you are saying that when a man has faith in Christ, he will do good works. However, if a man only has "rightly understood" faith, they will still be saved.

Respectfully Mary

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your men have lied to you. Scripture has OTHER instructions on how to be saved, including works:

confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

everyone who acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God;

“everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

6 For he will repay according to each one’s deeds:

a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Mary,
The historical context of the Protestant belief of "faith alone" suggests that performing penance is not necessary for justification. Instead, justification is granted through faith, which is not considered work but a result of proper inwardness. Baptism, prayer, feeding the poor, performing acts of mercy, tithing, receiving the eucharist, or participating in the Sacrament of Confirmation are also not required for justification. The belief remains that we are justified by faith alone.


What you indicate as "works" aren't really works. A "work" is the use of energy to either create, change or destroy something. Confession isn't work and neither is calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[Marymog]

Mary,
The historical context of the Protestant belief of "faith alone" suggests that performing penance is not necessary for justification. Instead, justification is granted through faith, which is not considered work but a result of proper inwardness. Baptism, prayer, feeding the poor, performing acts of mercy, tithing, receiving the eucharist, or participating in the Sacrament of Confirmation are also not required for justification. The belief remains that we are justified by faith alone.


What you indicate as "works" aren't really works. A "work" is the use of energy to either create, change or destroy something. Confession isn't work and neither is calling on the name of the Lord.

Thanks CadyandZoe,

I completely understand the 400-year historical teaching of Protestants. But I will happily expand on what Christianity has taught for 2,000 years and The Church still teaches.

That 2,000-year teaching doesn't exclusively say, as you suggested, that "justification is granted through faith'. It says we will be held to account for every word that we utter and that by our words we will be justified, and by our words we will be condemned (Matthew 12). Now I know that my choice of words are not really "works". But I sure do have to work at not using certain words so that I won't be condemned.

Scripture says and I believe that when God’s righteous judgement is revealed he will repay according to each one’s deeds (Romans 2)! What deeds are those CadyandZoe? Read on.......

Those deeds say that we must feed the hungry, clothe the naked, take in a stranger in need because if we don't we will go away into everlasting punishment and the righteous who did those things will go into eternal life (Matthew 25). And, if I want to take it a step further and be perfect, I will sell what I possess and give to the poor.

Now I know that selling what I possess is not a "work" that would be a "use of energy to either create.....or destroy something"! But it sure would "change" something....wouldn't it!!;)


Respectfully, Mary

 

[Ghada]

The rapture was mentioned by me in this context
"Not after we already have life. For the saved, the judgment seat of Christ involves rewards".

In case you really do not comprehend rather than are being dishonest, I will explain. I believe that it is after we are raised up into the air to meet Him (Raptured) and go to His Father's that Jesus rewards us. (Bema Judgment seat of Christ) So yes that would be after the Rapture. In no way does that mean, obviously, that the Rapture already happened.

Ok, thanks. Just asking. Some Christians do teach the resurrection is past. Paul had to deal with that long ago in 2 Tim 2.

They use it a part of their already saved forever doctrine. They also teach reigning with Christ now in heaven. It's a subset of the amil doctrine.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thanks CadyandZoe,

I completely understand the 400-year historical teaching of Protestants. But I will happily expand on what Christianity has taught for 2,000 years and The Church still teaches.

That 2,000-year teaching doesn't exclusively say, as you suggested, that "justification is granted through faith'. It says we will be held to account for every word that we utter and that by our words we will be justified, and by our words we will be condemned (Matthew 12). Now I know that my choice of words are not really "works". But I sure do have to work at not using certain words so that I won't be condemned.

Scripture says and I believe that when God’s righteous judgement is revealed he will repay according to each one’s deeds (Romans 2)! What deeds are those CadyandZoe? Read on.......

Those deeds say that we must feed the hungry, clothe the naked, take in a stranger in need because if we don't we will go away into everlasting punishment and the righteous who did those things will go into eternal life (Matthew 25). And, if I want to take it a step further and be perfect, I will sell what I possess and give to the poor.

Now I know that selling what I possess is not a "work" that would be a "use of energy to either create.....or destroy something"! But it sure would "change" something....wouldn't it!!;)


Respectfully, Mary

I understand that we are responsible for everything we say. Our words are a reflection of our innermost thoughts and beliefs. James warns us that the tongue can be a destructive force, capable of causing chaos and harm. As believers, we should strive to speak in a way that honors God and shows reverence for his authority. Mary, I appreciate your efforts to control your speech and remain faithful to God. It's not an easy task, but it's a worthwhile one. Thank you for your dedication, sister. :)

It's important to recognize that our faith impacts both our actions and thoughts. While the phrase "faith alone" may suggest a lack of action, I disagree. I think you've identified a crucial aspect of the gospel - that having faith requires effort. When Paul talks about our "rest," he means that upon reaching the Lord, we'll be transformed and moral and spiritual decisions will come naturally. It will be effortless to do what's right.

As you mentioned, Paul reminds his readers that judgment awaits us based on our deeds. He clarifies that the reason for our actions is crucial. According to him, God rewards eternal life to those who persistently do good and seek glory, honor, and immortality. We strive to be honored by God, so we emulate his goodness and love in our behavior.

Although I do not believe you are mistaken, I advise against creating a list of good deeds as it might lead to keeping score. It is possible for one to think that God is pleased with them because they "feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and take in a stranger in need." These are all worthy acts, but I believe that Jesus would want us to embrace life as it comes and do good in any way that God presents to us just as I know you do sister. :)