Was Mary sinless?
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I rebuke you. You are adding to scripture to fit your false teaching. I want nothing to do with you.
Jude Thaddeus
Active Member
Nephesh is not adding to scripture; you don't name the scripture you claim Nephesh is adding to. He is using the same Socratic technique Jesus used by asking questions to stump His opponents by making them think critically. Critical thinking is anathema to fundamentalist literalists. Nephesh has you stumped because God is all-knowing and all powerful.
God has the power to intervene and prevent the mother of Jesus from Original Sin at conception. The fundie god imposes limits on God's power. God is capable of preserving Mary's soul from inheriting original sin, thus remaining an immaculate soul. This fits perfectly with Luke 1:28, the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person – Jesus Christ in John 1:14.
The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:
"Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow'" (Plummer).
(Robertson, II, 13)
Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, "grace"). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated "grace" 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as "full of grace" and that the literal meaning was "endued with grace" (Vincent, I, 259).
Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as "to endue with Divine favour or grace" (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to "divine favor, that is, God’s grace" (White, 201).
Martin Luther:
Perpetual Virginity
Throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. This is not adding to scripture, but todays radical Protestants are busy covering up what their own reformers taught.
Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, Luther held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."3
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. This is not adding to scripture, but todays radical Protestants are busy covering up what their own reformers taught.
Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, Luther held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."3
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."7
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."9
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."10
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12
Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."16
Unfortunately the Marian teachings and preaching of the Reformers have been "covered up" by their most zealous followers - with damaging theological and practical consequences.
source
Your "rebuke" of Nephesh reflects a cover up that started in the 18th century opposing the reformers and slowly infected Protestant sects like a cancer. Before that, not a single Protestant denomination taught such unbiblical nonsense about Mary, "Mary a sinner" and "Mary had other children" adds to scripture. Worse, these man made traditions diminish the uniqueness of the Incarnation. Your rebuke is hypocritical.
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How is my asking whether you believe God is incapable or capable of x adding to Scripture?
Jude Thaddeus
Active Member
Capable, not capable, the point is irrelevant, because the Bible is clear that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, plain and simple. And If you are thinking Jesus is an exception, so there can be more exception, in fact, Jesus is the God of Whom all fall short of His glory. Jesus. This is what they call a "gotcha" question.
Don't you believe God is capable of wiping away the corruption of sin from all living? No need for anyone to have a savior? Because He purified them all? Do you believe God is capable of that?
Do you ascribe God's activity as whatever you can imagine? Or do you limit it according to the Bible? I go by the Bible, myself.
Much love!
Don't you believe God is capable of wiping away the corruption of sin from all living? No need for anyone to have a savior? Because He purified them all? Do you believe God is capable of that?
Do you ascribe God's activity as whatever you can imagine? Or do you limit it according to the Bible? I go by the Bible, myself.
Much love!
Behold
Well-Known Member
God is capable of causing Whales and Sharks and Redwood Trees to Disco Dance on top of the Vatican.
So, if a "Church Father" says it happened, and another says they read a " ancient text" that seemed to state it, and then Pope Next III decides its now "Doctrine".... = do you believe it?
Do you believe it?
You probably would because that is basically all the doctrines of the "Cult of the Virgin" , born. as they are often not bible based but based on "tradition".. .. Religious fantasy., especially regarding "The Virgin Mary".
So, Mark 7 says that this type of man made religious tradition.. fakery .... leaves the word of God, out. "Voids it".. "Nullifies it".
Jude Thaddeus
Active Member
A plain and simple non-sequitur. God's omnipotence is NOT dichotomous with "all have sinned".
You miss the point and refuse to come to terms with the Greek “kecharitomene.”
I don't presuppose a false nature of God that sees us as snow covered dung heaps after death.
Could you re-phrase that? I'm having trouble understanding false scenarios.
A mystery is something we can know about some things with human reason, but we can't know everything about it.
I already explained that God is capable of preserving Mary's soul from inheriting original sin, thus remaining an immaculate soul. Adam and Eve were created perfect before the Fall, so why is it so unusual for God to do that for His own mother???
Refuse? You guys! You should try to stay in your own head. I've been through this before.
Much love!
Behold
Well-Known Member
Which exactly explains why you are a vocal point for the "cult of the Virgin".
Cool, but that's not what I asked. I asked, do you believe that God is capable or incapable of preserving Mary's soul from inheriting original sin, thus remaining an immaculate soul? Either you do or you don't.
Lol, I'm saving that picture. It encapsulates the people who refuse to answer my simple question perfectly.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
It’s not a question of capability or lack of it, but a question of God’s will and purpose in how he chose to bring his Messiah into the world...and more importantly, why?
Why did the son need to become a human at all? Why did he need to be born of a human mother? And where is it written that she had to be sinless? Was God not capable of making his son sinless without involving his human mother? Was there some restriction to that? We can play that game too....
And what was to stop God creating Jesus as a grown man, just as he did Adam? Was it capability? Or did it have to do with the reason why he created human beings in the first place?
Do you know how redemption works?
You guys are long on blind belief.....and so incredibly short on Bible knowledge.....it leaves me shaking my head....seriously.
Jude Thaddeus
Active Member
Yes it is. You have no answer to the question, and no credibility with a distorted Bible.
Jude Thaddeus
Active Member
Off topic emotional derailer. Your obsession with a rarely used term, that is not a "vocal point" that has been explained repeatedly, amounts to forum sadism, a sickness. All because you cannot answer a simple question.
Jude Thaddeus
Active Member
Yes, we have been through this before.
Even appealing to Protestant scholars, it falls on deaf ears.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Here is "catholic created".. (Top 10).
1.) "Cult of the Virgin" "Cult of Mary"
2.) "Mary as Mediatrix"
3.) Baptismal Regeneration
4.) Transubstantiation
5.) Penance
6.) "Priests can't marry", and yet the bible says that PETER had a wife who was with Him in his ministry., and Paul's epistle teaches that "forbidding to marry" is a "doctrine of Devil's".
7.) "Ascension of Mary"
8.) "Perpetual virgin" and "Queen of heaven"... However, both those are taken from the Pagan Goddess Diana. (Theology).
9.) "Popes"
10.) "Church Fathers"
Jude Thaddeus
Active Member
Behold
Well-Known Member
I didn't see your "question", as i dont think you posted it to me... @Jude Thaddeus
Post it now, and i'll answer it for you.
np.
Just make certain its a QUESTION, = Just ONE...... and not rows of "cult of the virgin" Doctrine. @Jude Thaddeus
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