Was Jesus/Yeshua born with a Sin Nature?

[Grailhunter]

We could look at Abraham and Isaac - no doubt the greatest example of God in type offering Jesus as a sacrifice for sin.
Even the way the covenants were confirmed by the slaying of an animal sacrifice all pointed to Christ being offered up for the sins of the world.
God's righteousness declared in a covenant victim!

Who is denying this?

 

[BeyondET]

It is referring to a human warlord king that would be the Jewish messiah.
Understand that the Jews believed that Elijah was senior to the messiah, that was why Elijah was to introduce the messiah.
If the Jews knew that the Messiah would be the Son of God they would not have rejected Him.

I've read the older transcripts are different on that verse as I posted a few back.

I've never heard of that about a warlord king.
Where would that line up in scripture?

 

[BeyondET]

Not sure where you are going with that.
The verse about crush is referring to a human.

I'm not going anywhere, you said read what you said and I was inquiring about it that's all.

 

[Grailhunter]

I've read the older transcripts are different on that verse as I posted a few back.

I've never heard of that about a warlord king.
Where would that line up in scripture?

Do you think that the Jews thought that the messiah would be the Son of God.
The Old Testament prophecies are pointed to a human....that is why the Jews thought he would be a human.
The prophecies are going talk about the reign of a king that had children and gained the spoils of victory.

 

[BeyondET]

Do you think that the Jews thought that the messiah would be the Son of God.
The Old Testament prophecies are pointed to a human....that is why the Jews thought he would be a human.
The prophecies are going talk about the reign of a king that had children and gained the spoils of victory.

Still don't see that it is pointing to someone else because God said it pleased him to crush, which I'm now not so sure it was even translated properly.

 

[Grailhunter]

Still don't see that it is pointing to someone else because God said it pleased him to crush, which I'm now not so sure it was even translated properly.

Of course the question is....who is him? Him does not automatically point to the Son of God.

 

[face2face]

Spoils....do not think so.

Let me ask you...what was Jesus spoils? Ephesians 4:8
And look what he did with them!

 

[face2face]

I like this.

Read the psalm verse in context.....the human messiah was told to be a king

I should make it known I dont believe Jesus was God, or that he preexisted...he was born of a woman born under the law in the condemned line of Adam.

 

[BeyondET]

Of course the question is....who is him? Him does not automatically point to the Son of God.

Verse 11 seems to hint too who he was, he will justify many and bear their iniquities who does it sound like?

11After the anguish of His soul, He will see the light of life and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many, and He will bear their iniquities.…

 

[face2face]

Crucified everyday?
What do you mean what His baptism was?

Read Romans 6 - the Baptism chapter....Romans 6:5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death...

his baptism is the putting to death of the flesh and its lusts.

 

[Grailhunter]

Let me ask you...what was Jesus spoils? Ephesians 4:8
And look what he did with them!

Psalms 68:18
You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives; You have received gifts among men, Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there.

Again a victorious human King.
These verses are not going to get into a God messiah.

 

[face2face]

Psalms 68:18
You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives; You have received gifts among men, Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there.

Again a victorious human King.
These verses are not going to get into a God messiah.

No such thing as a God Messiah

 

[Grailhunter]

Verse 11 seems to hint too who he was, he will justify many and bear their iniquities who does it sound like?

11After the anguish of His soul, He will see the light of life and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many, and He will bear their iniquities.…

Ok, lets cut to the chase here.
Christianity has looked to the Old Testament to find a connection to a God messiah...I agree with that.
Believe it or not, the Jews were and are important to Yahweh, if the Old Prophecies specifically told of a God messiah, a lot more Jews would have been saved and it would have redefined Judaism. The Apostles were Jews so they wanted that very much.

And then you have verse 12
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

I agree how some could believe this refers to Yeshua. But all this effort should not be...combing through the scriptures to find something that would have been so easy to say....why deceive the Jews?

 

[Grailhunter]

I should make it known I dont believe Jesus was God, or that he preexisted...he was born of a woman born under the law in the condemned line of Adam.

Jehovah's Witness.

 

[Grailhunter]

Well it looks like the forum is messing up....so lets continue this another time

 

[BeyondET]

Ok, lets cut to the chase here.
Christianity has looked to the Old Testament to find a connection to a God messiah...I agree with that.
Believe it or not, the Jews were and are important to Yahweh, if the Old Prophecies specifically told of a God messiah, a lot more Jews would have been saved and it would have redefined Judaism. The Apostles were Jews so they wanted that very much.

And then you have verse 12
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

I agree how some could believe this refers to Yeshua. But all this effort should not be...combing through the scriptures to find something that would have been so easy to say....why deceive the Jews?

That's what alot of jews didn't see, they were not decieved. they saw the miracles excused him of having demons etc.

They didn't see him on the cross with the other transgressors next to him.

 

[Grailhunter]

That's what alot of jews didn't see, they were not decieved. they saw the miracles excused him of having demons etc.

They didn't see him on the cross with the other transgressors next to him.

What good are prophecies of riddles when souls are at stake?

 

[BeyondET]

What good are prophecies of riddles when souls are at stake?

Because no one is forced to believe, or information

 

[Grailhunter]

The prophetic Messiah?

To start with I need to correct some common Christian misconceptions of the Old Testament.

1. The Old Testament Israelites / Jews did not believe in a hell or a devil and still do not believe in them today. Consequently God never threatened them with hell as a punishment.

2. God never warned anyone in the Old Testament about the devil or demons.

3. The Old Testament Israelites / Jews believed that heaven was the abode of God and maybe angels but the Israelites / Jews were never offered heaven as a reward. Some sects of modern Judaism do believe that heaven is a reward.

4. The Old Testament Israelites / Jews believed that their only possible final destination was Shoal.

5. The Old Testament Israelites / Jews believed that Elijah was senior to the messiah.

6. The terms savior or redeemer generally referred to someone that would rescue them from their oppressors.

7. The Old Testament Israelites / Jews thought that the messiah would be a human warrior king that would redeem or save them from their oppressors and but them in power. Modern Judaism still believes that the messiah will be human.

The way that modern Jews believe in the messianic age; Jewish tradition affirms that the Messiah will be a human leader, he will be a descendant of King David, gain sovereignty over the land of Israel, gather the Jews from the four corners of the earth, as their king he will restore them to full observance of Torah law, rebuild the Temple and as a grand finale, bring peace to the whole world under Jewish rule. Most or all of the messianic prophecies point to this person.

The Old Testament Israelites / Jews had pretty much lost everything. Their kingdoms had been conquered by Pagans. Their Temple destroyed. Ten of the twelve tribes had been lost. Subsequently they had been under Pagan rule for centuries.

What was on their minds….vengeance! The last thing that the Old Testament Israelites / Jews were praying for, was a peace loving…non-violent messiah that preached love.

Between the events of the “terrible day of the Lord” and the victories of the messiah king, the Jews looked forward to the destruction of their oppressors, the building of a new Temple, requiring that the whole world would obey the 613 Mosaic Laws, as the world would finally be under the total rule of the Jews.

Could the Old Testament prophecies be about the messiah God? No. Or mostly no…possibly there are riddles about the messiah God that are sprinkled in the scriptures? Not likely. Either way the Jews did not pickup on it. By definition the Jews believed in one God and no one like Him…. monotheistic. To them the idea of a messiah God was sacrilege. Which is why Yeshua had to hide that fact for most of His ministry.

If the prophets believed that the messiah would be a God….the Son of God, it would have filled the prophetic books….Could anything be more important? They would be shouting it from the mountain tops and dancing in the streets.

The Old Testament Israelites / Jews were looking for vengeance and freedom and the whole concept of “My daddy is coming to kick your daddy’s tail” would have thrilled them. Then the Jews in the New Testament would have embraced Yeshua until they found out that He was all about peace and love.

We know the Jews believed that the messiah would be human because during the revolts that preceded Yeshua’s ministry, they were looking at various Jewish military leaders as being possible messiahs. And this was what the Jewish Zealots were all about… They looked forward to a Messiah whom God would send to expel the Romans from Palestine and restore the Kingdom of God to the chosen people.

One of the great tragedies of the Bible….of all time even! Is that the Jews did not know that the messiah would be a full-fledged God! That they missed the opportunity to walk with a God….to learn from a God! To be saved by a God. To be offered heaven from a God!

 

[PinSeeker]

You avoided dealing with Jesus obtaining eternal redemption?

There's no reason to "deal with" anything of the sort. Jesus, our Lord and our God (as Thomas said in John 20:28), is our Redeemer, and as such was never in need of redemption unto or reconciliation with the Father. He always possessed the same glory as the Father from all eternity (John 17:5). Jesus, because He is God, became also man and accomplished the redemption of those He came to save ~ reconciled us to the Father ~ by keeping the Law perfectly and through His death on the cross (Philippians 2:5-11).

Was God able to save His son from Death?

Well sure, but He didn't. If He had, none of us would have any hope of redemption/salvation. As Paul says, if Christ has not been raised, our faith is futile and we are still in our sins (1 Corinthians 15:17). As you said, Christ had the same nature as we do - precisely the same no difference at all, which is true in that he was 100% of man ~ human ~ but He was (and is) also 100% of God. He only ~ "only," as if it is some mere thing; it is not ~ laid aside His Godly nature to accomplish our redemption (again, Philippians 2:5-11).

What we actually could say, F2F, is that Jesus redeemed Himself by fulfilling the Law perfectly and remaining without sin. So there's how to "deal with" Jesus "obtaining eternal redemption." :)

As for the everlasting covenant, F2F, Jesus Himself is the everlasting Covenant, the Fulfillment of it, the One that all of the lesser covenants (with Adam and Eve, with Noah, with Abraham, with David) pointed to.

I've opened many doors but so few enter.

<chuckles...> Well, F2F, Jesus is the door, as He Himself said, and anyone who enters by Him will be saved (John 10:7, John 10:9). He's the only door I need. :)

Grace and peace to you.