Was Jesus Orthodox? (or Baptist?)
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Indeed.
Was he considered to be orthodox by the religious establishment of his day? (nope)
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Runningman
Active Member
If by "orthodox" you mean the literal definition of the word being what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true, then yes. Jesus is the orthodox standard for Christians. That isn't to conflate the word orthodox with what the Orthodox (Catholic) Church represents, though I guess some would disagree with that. They don't mean the same thing even though they share the same word.
Now as far as what was orthodox of Jesus' day then it depends who you ask. The religious establishment was divided primarily between Pharisees, Essenes, and Sadducees. The Pharisees actually affirmed a belief in resurrection, judgement day, and heaven while the Sadducees did not. Neither group still exists today, but theologically Jesus was in part in agreement with the Pharisees even though they never seemed to discuss what they have in common.
Not sure what the Sadducees believed about Messiah, but the Pharisees did believe in a Messiah, but did not agree with Jesus that he is the Messiah. That is where Jesus and the Pharisees clashed the most theologically. The Pharisees were theologically boxed into the belief that the Messiah would be a godlike warlord and then Jesus didn't seem to fit what their expectations would be so they mostly rejected him aside from Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea.
Just goes to show it's possible be be utterly blind to truths that would have otherwise been apparent if it weren't for the theological box we tend to put ourselves in. One person's heretic was another person's saint and one person's tribe was another person's enemy. Same still rings true today.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
You are right. He served the single being God=the Abrahamic God Israel served from Moses on up while serving the true God))))-2Thess 2:3=the great apostasy( son of peredition) created God into a trinity.
I would reply with a rebuttal, but we are not allowed to discuss that on this forum. (note removed word from your post = XXXXXXXXX)
I recommend that you revise or delete your post.
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Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I think that a lot of groups define their beliefs, not do much for themselves, but to answer the questions of others. Once a group gets started, and begins to grow, others start paying attention. They all questions. They start challenging what they see. The demand explanations. Hence creeds. The problem with creeds is that they were closed ended, and became "absolute truth". In order to become a member of the group, one must adhere to the Creed. Everyone else outside the group became "unorthodox". Then the Creed was turned into a blunt instrument with which to repel boarders. Then it was turned against those outside the group. An instrument of persecution. Any concept of learning and growing in doctrine was buried under the concrete foundations of "creedal truth". The creeds became equal to scripture, and revelation, such as it was, was only ever used to invent new doctrines, and never to correct old ones.
When wrong doctrine was exposed within the creeds, or at least challenged, conversation is often shut down. Argue scripture all you like, but don't touch the Creed.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Nothing Jesus taught or practised was outside of the law and the prophets, hence orthodox.
Jesus never once, as far as I am aware, condemned the rulers of His day with wrong teaching. But He did condemn them for their evil characters, their hypocrisy, and their behaviour and attitudes to others. Hence unorthodox.
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Keiw
Well-Known Member
He did condemn them for wrong teachings-At Matt 23:13 he said they were misleading all listening to them to not enter Gods kingdom. Not because they had evil Characters, but its fact, they added all kinds of bylaws to Gods laws that God did not approve.= wrong teachings.
Example they condemned the apostles for picking wheat to eat on the sabbath.( Matt 12)--Jesus corrected them. At 12:13-14 he healed a mans hand on Sabbath, then they( religious teachers) wanted to kill him.
I agree with what you wrote except for your definition of orthodox.
Since Jesus "condemned the rulers of His day with wrong teaching" he was NOT orthodox by their standard. That's the point of this topic.
Re-read the OP (post #1, if need be)
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If one has a lacking regarding the truth of the Trinity, then one would think so, for they have not been given the Truth regarding what the Trinity truly is in fact.
If one does not have the Holy Spirit that is given to one who is truly born again, then one does not have the Father ? or Christ Jesus in fact !
One who had religious conviction like most Christians only have, for they have not been truly born again in fact ?
Many believe that born again is just having a Spirit of god, well that may be the case as i was their once as well as all with much faith become just that ! as i had somthing like 90% or so faith in god ? much conviction ! but for one day i got conected, God turned up like as with Paul in much the same way ? and then i knew God ! big diffrence for from then on i was 100% faith in Christ Jesus and can never turn back to the Vomit, i was on the correct Path !
I can not go around and past my Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus, too the Father, like out of the way Jesus and talk to the Father only now ? No ! i can not in fact, for my Lord and Saviour is my God in fact for he is the Alpha and the Omega in fact ! as no one comes to the Father but through his only begotten Son in fact and any one who claimes other wise is only a religious fool. that isnt worthy of God at all !
So what is needed is that one needs the Holy Spirit for the start or you have nothing but religious dribble, be it so called Christian or Islam or Jewish that is not conecter to God but is a shadow ? people living in the darkness and are not of the Light in fact regarding God ? they seek but they are not conected in fact ? they have something, but it's not worthy of God. such is just works of man founded on this world inspired, it has not made the grade ? for their is a great gap that devides both.
So one needs all 3 that are one in fact, for fact is with out the Holy Spirit one goes no where in fact period ! that is a fact that all would agree on ? then we needed the Son of God for if it was not for him, then we would be lost as the Jews are and coming from where they are at Lost religious dribble of mans works thinking they can bypass the Christ Jesus to serve God ? But the worthy Jews of God back in Jesus day that got born again become the first Christians in fact when Jesus went to Heaven ! and Bingo the lights went on ! for they were worthy of Israel ! = Gods people in fact !
Outside of abiding in Christ Jesus you are not worthy of God in fact ! from that day on. the Jews who served God before Jesus came, Jesus went to them and brought them up, because they were worthy regarding God. for they layed the foundations for the path to come, as Holy Moses and Gods Prophets did in fact. and we look up to them for such, for they are inspiration regarding God.
Jesus is not God the Father ? he did not make everything himself ! Jesus is Emanuel = God with us in fact ! but as fare as we are concerned we can not bypass him in fact, so he is the Key the doorway the Arch that we can only go through to the Father, So he is the Alpha and the Omega in fact !
Jesus was jesus in the flesh, but when he went to Heaven, he became Christ Jesus ? big diffrence ! So one can only truly only connect to Christ Jesus throught the Holy Spirit in fact ! or one can not connect ? so when Jews walked here ? people did not know him ? for they had not connected, but some had faith that he was the one and some feared that he may be Gods Son ? and that's why they set against him just like they did with all of Gods Prophets. For they love the darkness and fear being exposed in the Light of Christ Jesus.
They had it all sowen up, like a Government works to dominate it's own hand ? for it's self ! and you become their work of art ?
Jesus on earth only did the will of his Father God in Heaven ! as we do in Christ Jesus who are Saved, for we are born again in him in fact ! that means we are his people for we abide in him.
We do not kill people, for we do not serve this world, being lead by the deceptions and delusions of this world ! like a Goose.
So is it only 2 and not 3 points of God ?
If only just 2, The Father and the Holy Spirit ? or just only 1, The Father ? If so where is the Holy Spirit, outside of such ? so if one believes in or on a god bar the Holy Spirit, that's not God in fact at all in fact, but only just a toss of mans religious ignorance.
One needs all 3 the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in fact. or you do not have Christ Jesus as your Lord and Saviour in fact, for one has another Jesus ? not the Christ Jesus in fact ! for such a one outside of the 3 must be looking for the 2ed coming to get Saved for you must think that Jesus was not the Christ in fact ?
Who looks to the 2ed coming, such a one can not be truly Saved in fact, for you have a loss ? you are not filled with the Holy Spirit !
What are you going to do at the second coming ? get Saved ! get saved again ? how can you get Saved again ? must of been lukewarm before ! and if you are not on fire for the Lord Jesus now, who are you truly ?
But they were not worthy of God in fact bro. They were of this world that is full of deceptions and delusions, thus not worthy of Gods Otrhodox !
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
They had the law and the prophets. They taught the law, as that was their job. Jesus didn't condemn them for teaching the law. He condemned them for their selfish power and prestige motivated applications and interpretations of that law...a lesson I believe for all of us. We profess to ground our faith and practise on the scriptures, but how many of us, in order to maintain our own cherished traditions and sin, reinterpret the scriptures to harmonize with our fallen nature and immature characters?
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Its 100% fact of recorded history--No trinity was served prior to Catholicism adding the holy spirit as apart of a godhead in 381 ce at the council of Constantinople--Recorded fact of history.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
They added to Gods laws without his consent. Like i showed, they thought it unlawful to pick wheat to eat on the sabbath. They thought it unlawful to cure another on the sabbath, they taught that as well obviously, Jesus corrected them, they did not like a mere carpenters son telling them they were wrong.
99% of all religions claiming to be christian have manipulated Gods word. Most cant help it, they use altered translations that mislead. They are a mass of confusion.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
As I said, quote...He condemned them for their selfish power and prestige motivated applications and interpretations of that law. The picking of corn on the Sabbath was their interpretation of harvest. They taught the law, but because of their poor character they showed no mercy. The healing on Sabbath was their interpretation of work. Again, no mercy was being applied to the law. They were teaching strictly as the law dictated. But as Jesus said,
KJV Matthew 23:23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Notice, they should have done as they were doing, but in showing mercy, which was also according to Jesus, a part of the law, they would have practised the law perfectly.
I agree with what you wrote except for your definition of orthodox. And the reason for this topic.
We have a tendency to associate the word orthodox with something good, but something that is very bad can be orthodox according to the thing it relates to.
If we understand orthodoxy as being by-the-book we can understand that it could be in reference to a very BAD book. Like orthodox communism, by-the-book. Any derivation in THAT communism would NOT be orthodox communism. (not by-the-book)
I am Protestant. According to strict Catholicism I am NOT orthodox. (by-the-book) When I share a doctrinal opinion on the forum that someone doesn't like, I may be called unorthodox, or even a heretic. Unorthodox, heterodox and heretical all mean NOT orthodox according to SOME standard. To a Protestant, infant baptism may be considered unorthodox to Protestantism, when it is VERY orthodox to Catholicism.
Therefore, Jesus was not orthodox according to the standard of the ruling religion of his day. And that was a GOOD thing.
Being a heretic is WAY under-rated. - LOL
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I like what you are saying here. I have a different view to discuss. You should join (start) this discussion.
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