Was Jesus Heretical? - Why did they crucify Him?

[Patrick1966]

There you go, trying to limit the scope of the discussion again.

Certainly "mentioned, suggested, implied, brought up" here.

An honest, rational, discussion isn't happening with Mary.

 

[Marymog]

There you go, trying to limit the scope of the discussion again.

Certainly "mentioned, suggested, implied, brought up" here.

Lol....So when I said "not heretical to God" you equate that to "not heretical to Catholics"?????????????

I'm not following your logic but you don't need to explain it....I'm Good.

I can see that you want to inject my Catholic faith into our discussion when I haven't injected it at all.

 

[Marymog]

Similarly, if you (for example) don't believe in all of the Catholic Churches, definitions, doctrines and dogmas-- you are a heretic to Catholicism.

Nope, not completely true. I only have to believe in the infallible teachings (dogma) of The Church. Do you know what they are?

Also, if you reject the teachings of your church, would you be a heretic? What church is that?

 

[St. SteVen]

Why did you bring up the "living waters" part of baptism written about in the Didache?

The living waters (a complete misunderstanding of what Jesus meant by the term) were obviously out in public. A flowing river.
Seems we still disagree on what constitutes a public declaration. But that's okay.

Why don't you agree with the writings of men that lived during the times of the Apostles, but agree with the writings of men from the Reformation (or later)?

The Didache is an interesting document, but I had some issues with it,
and obviously it wasn't canonized. And for good reason, I think.
The Reformers were biblically focused. (for the most part)
No interest in the Reformed church of today though.
I'm a recovering evangelical.

 

[St. SteVen]

I can see that you want to inject my Catholic faith into our discussion when I haven't injected it at all.

Seriously?
How do you define heretical?

 

[St. SteVen]

I only have to believe in the infallible teachings (dogma) of The Church.

Wow. Dogma. ???
I never seen anyone use that as a positive term. Interesting.

Like the bumper sticker.

My Karma ran over your Dogma.

 

[St. SteVen]

An honest, rational, discussion isn't happening with Mary.

LOL
I'm actually fine with @Marymog

 

[Marymog]

An honest, rational, discussion isn't happening with Mary.

Really? When was I not honest?

 

[Marymog]

Wow. Dogma. ???
I never seen anyone use that as a positive term. Interesting.

Like the bumper sticker.

My Karma ran over your Dogma.

I don't understand your "positive term" statement. Can you elaborate?

Curious Mary

(I do like your bumper sticker idea, very witty)

 

[Marymog]

Seriously?
How do you define heretical?

O'boy...here we go again.....adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma (post #117)

Jesus was heretical to orthodox Judaism (post #136)

Post #120

Was 3 times not enough for you?????????

YOU and only YOU have interjected the word Catholic into our discussion. Are you denying that?

 

[Marymog]

An honest, rational, discussion isn't happening with Mary.

When have I not been rational?

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Wow. Dogma. ???
I never seen anyone use that as a positive term. Interesting.

Like the bumper sticker.

My Karma ran over your Dogma.

Now that's funny. I'm gonna have to remember it !

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't understand your "positive term" statement. Can you elaborate?

Curious Mary

(I do like your bumper sticker idea, very witty)

That was an actual bumper sticker that I saw. On a car, obviously. - LOL
(I think I say "obviously" too much) Was that too obvious?

I have always heard the term dogma as a negative term.
Typically in reference to religious dogma. (blah, blah, blah...)

While explaining a doctrine to someone outside the church,
they might retort, "That's just religious dogma."

Protestant churches may have a list of beliefs and doctrines. They wouldn't
use the word "dogma". I assume because of the negative connotation. ???

Actually the bumper sticker is a great example. Not a positive reference.

My Karma ran over your Dogma.

 

[St. SteVen]

When have I not been rational?

Don't stop there...

- When have I not been discussion?
- When have I not been isn't?
- When have I not been happening?
- When have I not been with?
- When have I not been Mary?

Don't be ridiculous, you've always been Mary.
(unless there is something we don't know about you) ???

 

[St. SteVen]

YOU and only YOU have interjected the word Catholic into our discussion. Are you denying that?

Wow. You really do have control issues, don't you?
(are you a defense lawyer?)

 

[St. SteVen]

@Marymog

There's something I have always wondered about Catholicism.
How do you keep track of who is who at church?

At least half the girls must be named Mary, and half the boys are named Joseph. - LOL

Like the Mom in an Islamic neighborhood calling for her son, "Mo-hamm-ed!"
And half the village shows up.

 

[St. SteVen]

@Marymog

There's something I have always wondered about Catholicism.
How do you keep track of who is who at church?

At least half the girls must be named Mary, and half the boys are named Joseph. - LOL

Like the Mom in an Islamic neighborhood calling for her son, "Mo-hamm-ed!"
And half the village shows up.

Reminds my of a joke,

A man was stopped at a traffic light in Dublin when he was accosted by an angry man with a gun.
The gunman demanded to know if he was Catholic or Protestant.

The motorist couldn't tell whether the gunman was Catholic or Protestant himself.
And the wrong answer could get him shot or injured. Then he had an idea...

He answered that he was Jewish. To which the assailant replied,
"I'm the luckiest Palestinian terrorist in all of Ireland!" - LOL

 

[Earburner]

I'm sorry for being so thick-headed. A light JUST came on for me while I read your post.
Please correct me if I am STILL misunderstanding you. Thanks.

You seem to be claiming that it was NOT Moses and Elijah that appeared to Jesus and the disciples
in the Transfiguration, but RATHER two angels. Is that stated correctly? (to your liking)

Not sure how that equates to angels ascending and descending on the son of man, but... ???

If so, this puts a completely different light on the subject.
We are talking about the state of the dead. Correct?

Are you claiming that these imposters (of Moses and Elijah) were angels?
Since the dead CANNOT reappear in the physical realm? (your assumed justification)

Do you believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ?

St. SteVen wrote:
1. I'm sorry for being so thick-headed. A light JUST came on for me while I read your post.
Please correct me if I am STILL misunderstanding you. Thanks.
> Earburner's reply: No problem.

2. You seem to be claiming that it was NOT Moses and Elijah that appeared to Jesus and the disciples
in the Transfiguration, but RATHER two angels. Is that stated correctly? (to your liking)
> Correct. It's not that it's to my liking or not, but rather resting in His truth.

3. Not sure how that equates to angels ascending and descending on the son of man, but... ???
> The angels simply appeared when Jesus was transfigured. Mat. 17:3

4. If so, this puts a completely different light on the subject.
> Yes, most definitely.

5. We are talking about the state of the dead. Correct?
> Most definitely not.

6. Are you claiming that these imposters (of Moses and Elijah) were angels?
> Reverse that thinking. The disciples supposed in their minds, of what they thought them to be, when in reality they were angels.

7. Since the dead CANNOT reappear in the physical realm? (your assumed justification)
> Correct. (My confirmed justification through scripture and the mind of Christ within me).

8. Do you believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ?
> Absolutely. Except that, the transfiguration wasn't Jesus' resurrection, nor anyone elses.

Simply put, Jesus IS "the FIRSTborn from the dead". Without the shedding of the blood of Jesus, no one had yet ascended into heaven in any form.
During the lives of Moses and Elijah (etc.), by faith they were waiting for the "Promised One to come", but died in faith believing, before that day of Jesus' first manifestation in the flesh. Therefore, all that God could do for them, was to have their names written in God's book of Remembrance, until the shedding of Christ's blood. Malachi 3:16.

All of such, were under the altar of remembrance, being the OC, and are of the symbolic 144,000, who are shown in Rev. 6:9-11. It is at that time that they received the permanency of the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit (white robes), but only after Jesus' shed blood and his resurrection.

Since then, and even now, they are eternally alive, but are "asleep in Jesus", having been translated into the Book of Life, who IS Jesus Himself. They all are still waiting for the day of their bodily resurrection, along with us who now believe.
1 Thes. 4
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

To be IN Jesus, is to be IN the KoH;
To be IN the KoH, is to be IN Jesus.
Rom. 8:9.

 

[Mr E]

Nope, not completely true. I only have to believe in the infallible teachings (dogma) of The Church. Do you know what they are?

Also, if you reject the teachings of your church, would you be a heretic? What church is that?

ha ha.... okay, I'll play.

I used the definition YOU provided. -In kind of a deceitful manner by the way, since you present a definition that doesn't align with the definition you cite>>>

Nope, not true. Look the word up instead of giving your opinion:

Heresy: an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth

Definition of HERESY

adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma; denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church; an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

You snip "contrary to the truth" while ignoring the context the definition includes (of a group with generally accepted beliefs) but cite Webster's definition, which is as follows and applies directly to the Catholic Church:

1
: adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma (see DOGMA sense 2)
They were accused of heresy.

: denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church
: an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma

2
: dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice
To disagree with the party leadership was heresy.

: an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards

Not only that-You also incorrectly presume that Catholic dogma is first of all true and secondly infallible in nature. It's not. It consists of practices and beliefs. You should be mindful of that. The Catholic Church doesn't have a very proud history of tolerance to those who oppose it's beliefs. To say otherwise is to deny that their Popes have conducted themselves poorly on occasion and taught dogmatically ideas that stand in stark contradiction to previous teachings that were also held to be infallible. Kind of wrecking it for late-comers.

Here's but one example. Pope Leo X taught (infallibly) that the burning of heretics at the stake (to stay on topic) is NOT against the will of the Holy Spirit.

"We restrain in all the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication that all the faithful of both sexes must regard as condemned, reprobated, and rejected the idea that the burning of an heretic is against the will of the Holy Spirit".

If that was an infallible teaching YOU must hold to it, or YOU are the heretic. Pin the tail on the heretic at 3pm. Weenie Roast at 5... bring your own stake.

 

[Marymog]

ha ha.... okay, I'll play.

I used the definition YOU provided. -In kind of a deceitful manner by the way, since you present a definition that doesn't align with the definition you cite>>>



You insert "contrary to the truth" which you presumbably made up, but cite Webster's definition, which is as follows and applies directly to the Catholic Church:

1
: adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma (see DOGMA sense 2)
They were accused of heresy.

: denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church
: an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma

2
: dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice
To disagree with the party leadership was heresy.

: an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards

Hey E,

I apologize. You lost me on this one. I didn't insert 'contrary to the truth'. It is under #2, third sentence down.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your point?

Sincerely, Mary