Was Jesus Heretical? - Why did they crucify Him?

[St. SteVen]

Jesus was none. He taught sound doctrine and the fake religious leaders hated Him...

That's my point. The orthodox, or unorthodox, Judaism of the day considered Jesus heretical.
The reason for this topic is to get people to understand how the word heretical is actually defined.
All too often I see forum posters accusing each other of being heretical over a difference of opinion.

 

[St. SteVen]

Apostates broke away from the foundation of christ and formed Denominations.

Seriously? When did this happen? How early in church history?

The apostates started denominations. They teach false doctrine. Majority of hirelings don't have holy spirit. They have spirit of stupor.

You really have a problem with denominations. I don't see it that way.
Is YOUR personal church the only "TRUE" church? Maybe you are Catholic?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Like the bumper sticker.
My Karma ran over your Dogma.

Now that's funny. I'm gonna have to remember it !

I remembered another bumper sticker that I really liked.

Visualize Whirled Peas.


@Marymog

 

[Earburner]

This was a reference to the words of the Didache. NOT the words of Christ.
I disagree with the Didache on this point.

Yes, I did perceive that was the focus of the discussion. I just wanted to point out that one can be baptized publically or privately, but in the "religiosity" of it all, none of that matters if one has NOT been baptized by the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist pointed that out in Mat. 3
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
Aka, the Living water which is unto Salvation.

Our salvation is a two stage process.
Many come to repentance, but stop there and go no further inwardly. They neglect to make their calling and their election sure/sealed. 2 Peter 1:10. John 14:23, Rev 3:20, Luke 11:13.
"....many are called, but few chosen".

 

[Marymog]

Not condescending, a failed attempt at humor. (sorry)

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Marymog]

Perhaps we are looking at this differently.
I think you are asking for biblical proof that baptism can only be done publicly.
But I was telling you what Protestants do with baptism and our view.

We CONSIDER baptism to be a public confession/declaration of faith.
This does not disqualify a baptism NOT done "in public". (outdoors with a crowd watching)

It could be only the baptizer and the baptizee. The important thing is the CONFESSION of faith.
The baptizer will ask the baptizee to agree to a confession of faith in Jesus Christ.
Upon this confession of faith the baptizer baptizes the baptizee. (chuckling at my own sentence)

Very well put. Thank you.

 

[Marymog]

^ from post #164.

Actually, you both are misunderstanding Jesus. The Living Waters is the Gift of God's Holy Spirit of Eternal Life.
John 4[10] Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him [Luke 11:13], and he would have given thee living water. Rev. 3:20.

Many are baptized by literal water, but few are baptized by the Holy Spirit. ("....many are called, but few chosen". Mat. 20:16)
John 7
[38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly [inner most being] shall flow rivers of living water.

Not sure what that passage has to do with @St. SteVen and my discussion about baptism having to be public....but thanks for your input!

 

[Marymog]

The invisible church of "Born Again Christians" (John 3:3-8, Rev. 3:20), from out of all the Denominations of "church-ianity".

Hmmmm....so the church is invisible? So how does one fulfill Matthew 18:17?

 

[Marymog]

Well I don't agree with you precisely that "Jesus was the church" at least, not in the universal (catholic) sense.

Hey E,

Let me clarify. I think we would agree that Jesus started The Church (Matthew 16:18) and that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15). While Jesus was alive if there was a disagreement or a question by the Apostles on what the Truth was they would ask Jesus. That made Jesus the pillar and foundation of truth. Once Jesus died, who became that pillar and foundation of Truth? It appears the Apostles (or church leaders) did (Council at Jerusalem is example)! So that means the Apostles were "the church".

Once the Apostles died, who became the leaders of The Church that fulfills 1 Timothy 3:15? What Church (denomination) today fulfills 1 Timothy 3:15?

 

[Marymog]

It's unlikely that you could get your head around the idea,

Wow.....thanks for your condescending vote of confidence.......

 

[Marymog]

I gave you an example, which you ignored. I guess I gave you a 'no thank you' sized sample. (Contrary Mary).

Mr E,

I apologize. You did give me an example of what you believed to be an infallible teaching of The Church (Pope Leo X condoning burning of heretics).

I should have told you that what Pope Leo X wrote (Exsurge Domine, Condemning the Errors of Martin Luther) was not an infallible teaching of The Church. The Code of Canon Law says that “no doctrine is understood to be infallibly defined unless it is clearly established as such” (CIC 749 §3). This means that the propositions in Exsurge Domine must be assumed to have received a non-infallible handling.

So would you like to try another example of an actual infallible teaching?

 

[Marymog]

An honest, rational, discussion isn't happening with Mary.

Give an example of when I wasn't honest kiddo.

 

[Mr E]

Mr E,

I apologize. You did give me an example of what you believed to be an infallible teaching of The Church (Pope Leo X condoning burning of heretics).

I should have told you that what Pope Leo X wrote (Exsurge Domine, Condemning the Errors of Martin Luther) was not an infallible teaching of The Church. The Code of Canon Law says that “no doctrine is understood to be infallibly defined unless it is clearly established as such” (CIC 749 §3). This means that the propositions in Exsurge Domine must be assumed to have received a non-infallible handling.

So would you like to try another example of an actual infallible teaching?

How about a statement made from the chair? Wouldn't all statements considered ex cathedra be infallible according to the catholic church and it's adherents?

Ex Cathedra-

• Statement made ex cathedra: This Literally means "Statement made from the chair". It is a theological term which signifies authoritative teaching and is more particularly applied to the definitions given by the Pope. I Vatican Council says that when Pope makes a statement ex cathedra, he does so in his office of pastor and doctor of all Christians. (Session IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv). Example: when declaring and defining a dogma, Pope makes that statement ex cathedra.

 

[Earburner]

Not sure what that passage has to do with @St. SteVen and my discussion about baptism having to be public....but thanks for your input!

Water baptism by water is for repentance.
The act of repentance through water baptism, is only half the formula of salvation.

If one does not follow through in the other half, of being baptized BY the Holy Spirit (inviting the Spirit of Christ into their life), repentance and baptism by water is made void and is useful for nothing.

 

[St. SteVen]

Water baptism by water is for repentance.
The act of repentance through water baptism, is only half the formula of salvation.

If one does not follow through in the other half, of being baptized BY the Holy Spirit (inviting the Spirit of Christ into their life), repentance and baptism by water is made void and is useful for nothing.

I think the Catholics call that Chrismation. Which comes to the baptizee at infant baptism. As I understand it.
But, I'm no expert on the subject.

@Marymog

 

[Earburner]

I think the Catholics call that Chrismation. Which comes to the baptizee at infant baptism. As I understand it.
But, I'm no expert on the subject.

@Marymog

Oh, that's a new religious word to me. I had never heard that before. Thanks.
It appears, according to my searches, it's just a religious dogma of observance, that church-ianity relishes more than the personal touch of the literal Spirit/mind of Christ, permanently dwelling within us.

Chrismation | Definition, Description, & Sacrament | Britannica

Chrismation, in Eastern Christianity, a sacrament that, together with baptism, introduces new members into the church. It is the Eastern equivalent of confirmation in the West. Learn more about the sacrament of chrismation and its significance in this article.

www.britannica.com

That blessed event in a person's life, is commonly called being "born again", when a person repents towards God, and then knowingly, has received God's gift of His Holy Spirit. Except for the biblical words of God, no visible denominational church is required. John 3:3-8.

KJV Rev. 3[20]
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Douay R. Rev. 3:20
Behold, I stand at the gate, and knock. If any man shall hear my voice, and open to me the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
EDIT:
KJV Rom. 8[9]
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Douay R. Rom. 8:9
But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[St. SteVen]

Oh, that's a new religious word to me. I had never heard that before. Thanks.
It appears, according to my searches, it's just a religious dogma of observance, that church-ianity relishes more than the personal touch of the literal Spirit/mind of Christ, permanently dwelling within us.

That blessed event in a person's life, is commonly called being "born again", when a person repents towards God, and then knowingly, have received God's gift of His Holy Spirit. Except for the biblical words of God, no visible denominational church is required. John 3:3-8.

I think they go on from there.
They have catechism classes and probably agree to a confession of faith.
They do things differently than Protestants.

 

[St. SteVen]

That blessed event in a person's life, is commonly called being "born again", when a person repents towards God, and then knowingly, has received God's gift of His Holy Spirit. Except for the biblical words of God, no visible denominational church is required. John 3:3-8.

I see the Baptism with the Holy Spirit as a subsequent event to the born again indwelling experience.
Do you see it that way? Or stop at the indwelling?

Acts 1:4-5 NIV
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command:
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised,
which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water,
but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”

 

[Earburner]

I see the Baptism with the Holy Spirit as a subsequent event to the born again indwelling experience.
Do you see it that way? Or stop at the indwelling?

Acts 1:4-5 NIV
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command:
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised,
which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water,
but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”

I see the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as being given to us, when we open the door of ourselves, and invite Him in, just as Rev. 3:20 reveals it.
Jesus doesn't just barge His way in on us, until we ask. Luke 11:13. He then takes up permanent residence within us at that time.

Our salvation is indeed a two stage process. Unfortunately, many fall short of it, by having their sins forgiven through the blood of Christ, but neglect to go further, by making their calling AND election sure/sealed.
KJV 2 Peter 3
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 

[St. SteVen]

I see the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as being given to us, when we open the door of ourselves, and invite Him in, just as Rev. 3:20 reveals it.
Jesus doesn't just barge His way in on us, until we ask. Luke 11:13. He then takes up permanent residence within us at that time.

Our salvation is indeed a two stage process. Unfortunately, many fall short of it, by having their sins forgiven through the blood of Christ, but neglect to go further, by making their calling AND election sure/sealed.
KJV 2 Peter 3
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Thanks.
How do we make our calling and election sure?