Understanding and Believing the Gospel

[amigo de christo]

When you believed in Jesus ..would you say God brought you to believe in Jesus ?

How did you come to believe in Jesus?...

Just like he draws us to Jesus, brings us to repentance/ Godly sorrow?

If he believes in a jesus that goes about rebuking folks who REMIND folks of the DIRE NEED to believe
i got bad news for that fellow .
I dont trouble myself or concern myself with those who apparently OVER THINK < THUNK stuff .

 

[amigo de christo]

Calvin created that Lie you and BF and others here, are teaching.
He created a lot of Lies and He uses people to keep lying for Him.

Here is something for you to know.

God makes Christians

Calvin makes Calvinists.

They are not the same.
They are in fact, in opposition with each other.

the doctrine of calvin is dead bringing death unto all who partake of it .
just as is the doctrine of the R double C and many other places .
DOCTRINE MATTERS .
and if that seems hard to beleive then go to and behold one of the last things written in
the book called the revelation of JESUS CHRIST .
IF any man adds to or takes from THESE WORDS , THIS DOCTRINE .............
yah , it do matter and it do matter big time .
because JESUS DONT CONTRADICT the JESUS OF THE BIBLE , JESUS DONT CONTRADICT GOD
MAN DOES . and its about high time we got a big ol nose full of some bible .

 

[amigo de christo]

When you believed in Jesus ..would you say God brought you to believe in Jesus ?

How did you come to believe in Jesus?...

Just like he draws us to Jesus, brings us to repentance/ Godly sorrow?

DRAW . and i dont mean with pencil and paper . SOMEONE draws us to CHRIST . and it aint our flesh either .
but YOU ALREADY KNOW THIS .

 

[amigo de christo]

When you believed in Jesus ..would you say God brought you to believe in Jesus ?

How did you come to believe in Jesus?...

Just like he draws us to Jesus, brings us to repentance/ Godly sorrow?

watch out and beware . for many , maybe even him , BELIEVETH , that One does not have to BELIEVE ON CHRIST
what i mean is many now believe INCLUSVISM .
that means they believe that IF one is simply doing good even as a muslim , buddist , atheist
THEN THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN DRAWN TO CHRIST . IT BE A LIE SISTER .
this is why they often attack the word BELIEVE . they DONT THINK ITS NECESSARY TO BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST at all .
rather THEY BELIEVE what i wrote afore . Notice i capped the word BELIEVE . cause they BELIEVE
but its a LIE they believe , the lie that says there is no need to BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST .
watch out for this mindset they have is going WILD amongst the churches right now .

 

[Ritajanice]

DRAW . and i dont mean with pencil and paper . SOMEONE draws us to CHRIST . and it aint our flesh either .
but YOU ALREADY KNOW THIS .

Amen!!

 

[amigo de christo]

When you believed in Jesus ..would you say God brought you to believe in Jesus ?

How did you come to believe in Jesus?...

Just like he draws us to Jesus, brings us to repentance/ Godly sorrow?

ITS an attack against the gospel . examine it .
they teach as though reminding folks about having to BELIEVE on JESUS is , works etc .
THIS IS a method to shut down the preaching of the dire need TO BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST .
its a slippery slope sister . a slippery slope .
JUST remember the pattern JESUS SET and the apostels set . THEY ALL went about preaching the dire need TO BELEIVE
on JESUS and also warned and shook the dust off against those WHO BELIEVED NOT .
watch out , they are very sneaky . but they have NO DOCTRINE to back up their claims , WE DO . WE DO .
point to JESUS to HIS REMINDERS about BELIEF and etc just as did the apostels .

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen!!

Notice ITS GOD who draws us . draws us to what , UNBELIEF or BELIEF IN JESUS CHRIST .
BELIEF IN JESUS CHRIST . do not let this other man sway or trick you . IF GOD IS BEHIND IT , REST ASSURED
its about BELEIVING IN JESUS THE CHRIST WHOM HE DID SEND . not common ground and lies .

 

[Taken]

Understanding and Believing the Gospel

Believing is effected by Hearing the Gospel.

He who hears is gifted (from God) with a measure of Faith.

Hear a little, receive a little Faith.

Continue hearing, Faith is increased.

Faith, (little or increase), is the catalyst for a man to BELIEVE.

Stop believing, is called, fallen FROM Faith.

Continue believing AND FROM your hearts true belief a man calls ON the Lord and CONFESSES his true BELIEF…

The Dynamics CHANGE…By the Power of God.
Forgiveness unto the man.
The mans soul is restored (saved)
The mans spirit is quickened (born again)
The mans body is cleansed (Jesus blood).
The man heart is circumcised.
The man is given a new heart.
The Spirit of Gods TRUTH, dwells in the mans new heart.
Gods seed is given the man, and dwells with that man for the remainder of his physical life.

THAT ^^ Spirit of Gods Truth IS within that man 24-7 for the remainder of that mans physical life REVEALING to that man Gods “UNDERSTANDING” of His own Word.

BECAUSE….that man AND the Lord God Almighty have Established a freely willing one on one PERSONAL and FOREVER Relationship….that which;
Nothing whatsoever can undo, change, void.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[brightfame52]

TRY BRINGING SCRIPTURE i dont heed parrots who parrot the same stuff that scripture easily defeats .
BRING ME SOME SCRIPTURE that proves its error to REMIND FOLKS of the dire necessity to have to BELIEVE ON JESUS .
bring me scripture not your own twisted conception of what you think is the law or works .
Exactly . hear them crickets chirp my friend . You cant . But i can show you where both CHRIST
and the apostels reminded folks OF THE DIRE NEED TO BELEIVE , yeah BELIEVE . BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST .
But you will do as you do and keep bringing a LINE you THINK .

You condition salvation on something man does, thats works, dont have to be the Law for it to be works

 

[JBO]

Let me propose a different conclusion: "Your view that Eph. 2:8 supports the notion that faith is a gift is simply wrong." No need to go further and conclude that if Eph. 2:8 doesn't say faith is a gift, then faith can't be a gift.

That is not true. Ephesians 2:8 doesn't say that grace is a gift either, but grace is most definitely, by definition, a gift. The point is that those who claim that Ephesians says that faith is a gift are wrong. I presented the bases for proclaiming it is wrong.

 

[JBO]

Okay then, case closed

Except of course you will not leave it closed there.

 

[O'Darby]

You condition salvation on something man does, thats works, dont have to be the Law for it to be works

It appears that you haunt all manner of Christian forums saying the same things over and over like a mynah bird. If TULIP were correct, why would you care what non-Calvinists believe or teach? It makes absolutely no logical sense to me. If I were one of the elect but lived my life as a non-Calvinist, wouldn't I still be one of the elect? If I weren't one of the elect, what difference would it make if I were Calvinist or non-Calvinist? What difference would it make to my Christian walk if I never gave a thought to Calvinism or Arminianism? I can't see how the embarrassing, non-edifying mental masturbation that characterizes discussions such as this accomplish anything.

 

[RedFan]

That is not true. Ephesians 2:8 doesn't say that grace is a gift either, but grace is most definitely, by definition, a gift. The point is that those who claim that Ephesians says that faith is a gift are wrong. I presented the bases for proclaiming it is wrong.

Please re-read my post. I was not discussing whether grace is a gift. I was discussing whether faith is a gift -- and specifically whether Ephesians 2:8 says so. I agree that "those who claim that Ephesians says that faith is a gift are wrong." I disagree that you should have gone further and declared that therefore it follows that faith is not a gift. That doesn't follow at all. Just because Ephesians is no support for the notion doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

[amigo de christo]

You condition salvation on something man does, thats works, dont have to be the Law for it to be works

 

[JBO]

Dear JBO,
Your beliefs are not coming from God's Word.

Where does scripture ever say that mankind has a free will ability to choose?

Where does scripture ever say that mankind does not have a free will ability to choose?

Don't show me scriptures where mankind is told to "choose" because the ability to choose does not mean mankind has a free will. A computer has the ability to make choices but no one would argue that a computer has a free will.

A computer does not have the ability to make the choice to obey or disobey any of God's commands. Actually, a computer doesn't have the ability to make choices at all. It simply responds according to the program in operation at the time. If anything it is more similar to a dumb animal responding instinctly.

The definition of free will is to have the ability to make uncaused choices free from divine constraints.

That is not true. First, the Bible nowhere specifically discusses and defines “free will.” Our conclusions on this subject are inferences and implications from related biblical teachings. Second, there is no biblical reason to think that God’s freedom, however it is defined, can be used as a model or analogy for human free will as we possess it during this earthly lifetime. Third, “free will” actually must be defined in two different ways, both of which are libertarian and both of which are valid.

One is the “power of opposite choice”; the other is the “power of different choice.” The former is usually equated with the libertarian concept of free will. The “opposite choice” in this case is actually the power of opposite MORAL choice, or the ability to choose between right and wrong, the ability to choose to sin or not to sin. The latter is simply the ability to choose among various options without any accompanying moral implications. It is the freedom to select one course of action from a list of many possible choices. This kind of freedom is usually overlooked.

One is the “power of opposite choice”; the other is the “power of different choice.” The former is usually equated with the libertarian concept of free will. The “opposite choice” in this case is actually the power of opposite MORAL choice, or the ability to choose between right and wrong, the ability to choose to sin or not to sin. The latter is simply the ability to choose among various options without any accompanying moral implications. It is the freedom to select one course of action from a list of many possible choices. This kind of freedom is usually overlooked.

In both senses the choice is FREE if it involves the ability to choose among options (not necessarily opposites) without that choice’s being fixed or determined by some power outside the person’s own will. This latter aspect is what causes both kinds of free will to be called libertarian.

Below are just a few verses which clearly teach that there are divine constraints upon mankind's "will":

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you a heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

In this age, God's Word teaches that only those people who are blessed from the foundation of the world will be saved:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

2Tim 1:9 who did save us, and did call with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages…

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Paul was even asked about why God still finds fault with mankind given the truth that God's "will" rules over our "will":

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore, hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

How can you read these scriptures which I have posted above and come away with the conclusion that mankind has a free will to determine their own destiny?

The very idea that God would give to mankind commandment, which have consequences, in some cases very dire consequences, for failure to obey those commandments and then not even give mankind the ability to obey those commandments makes God out to be nothing more than a cruel evil tyrant.

Moreover, most of those passages actually say nothing at all about whether or not man has the ability to choose between opposites or to choose from among different options. And most are posted entirely free from any context in which they are stated. I won't bother to deal with all of those scriptures that you posted, but it is worthwhile to deal with some.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

That one is almost funny, since it is a plea or a requirement for man to make the choice to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. It proves the fact of the free will of mankind because it is obvious that most of mankind throughout history has chosen not to live by the word of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Again, a nonsensical conclusion from you that those two verses would indicate the non-existence of the free will of man. Verses 11 and 12 together pose a condition, namely the condition of either receiving Jesus or not when He came. The very possibility of receiving Jesus is a matter of choice, almost by definition. And with that the one receiving Jesus was given power. Being given power implies the ability to engage that power or not; that is a choice. Receiving Jesus was/is the choice. By receiving Jesus is meant believing on Jesus (v.12).

The birth spoken there is not physical birth, but spiritual birth. And of course it is not man but God who gives birth to the spirit of man. Man has nothing to do with that. Only God can give birth or rebirth to the spirits of men.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Very clearly it is the giving of the inheritance which was predestined accoring to God's purpose. Nothing there says even one thing about the ability of a man to choose. Even more there is nothing there that precludes the fact that the free will of mankind is a word of God after the counsel of His own will.

 

[JBO]

CONTINUED,

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Again, omitting any context whatsoever ever. That passage, Romans 8:28-30, sets the condition at the outset that Paul says, that it is "for those who love God" (v.28) that He works all things for their good. Loving God is the prerequisite for God's working all things together for good.


And finally, with reference to the passage in Romans 9, it is Paul's argument against the Judaizers that since they were a members of God's chosen nation, Israel, that God was obligated to save them. That entire passage is about God using the nation Israel for His own purpose of bringing His plan of Salvation to the world without any obligation of saving any of them. Specifically, He used Pharaoh as He chose with no implication of saving him or not. Similarly with Jacob or Esau. Nothing is said about their salvation or lack thereof. God used them both for His own purpose. And in doing so, "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!" (v.14)

Consider ,
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Clearly that is not about salvation of the soul, but instead, about using people in this life. Salvation of anyone is not an observable action by God that can demonstrate anything to us. We cannot actually see that happen. We cannot observe His wrath or power to save. We can however observe His wrath in such actions against Pharaoh as the parting of the Red Sea and the freeing of the Hebrew slaves. It is in such actions as that that He makes known His power.

 

[JBO]

Please re-read my post. I was not discussing whether grace is a gift. I was discussing whether faith is a gift -- and specifically whether Ephesians 2:8 says so. I agree that "those who claim that Ephesians says that faith is a gift are wrong." I disagree that you should have gone further and declared that therefore it follows that faith is not a gift. That doesn't follow at all. Just because Ephesians is no support for the notion doesn't mean it isn't true.

You go back and re-read my post. I was responding to the post by ritajanice which posted Ephesians 2 as proof that faith was a gift.

And I did not say that it follows that faith is not a gift. I said that Ephesians 2 does not say that faith is a gift.

 

[Behold]

Dear Behold,
Jesus did not have a free will. Only God the Father has a free will.

You have not read much Bible.
As the NT is missing from your theology, as well as from your /cult.

Let me show you something..

When Christ the Lord was about to be arrested, He was popping blood vessels from His face, in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Why?
Because Christ's Humanity was struggling with His Ministry, and this struggle was so intense that blood vessels were bursting in the Lord's face from the Emotional STRAIN.
It was such a situation, as Christ was entering into His beautiful PASSION, that God sent an angelic "helper" to The Lord, to comfort and strengthen Him.. (See the Painting below).

And so, what was Christ's Decision?

= He made a decision to go to the Cross.

How?

Jesus said......"NOT MY Will....... but Thine (YOUR Will Father) = that i will do".

Now that is 2 wills.

Christ's Free will, and God's Will.

And Jesus made a Choice to use His Free Will, to do His Father's Will.
-

 

[Ritajanice]

 

[RedFan]

You go back and re-read my post. I was responding to the post by ritajanice which posted Ephesians 2 as proof that faith was a gift.

And I did not say that it follows that faith is not a gift. I said that Ephesians 2 does not say that faith is a gift.

Well, I've re-read it -- and you explicitly said to @Ritajuice "Your view that faith is a gift is simply wrong! ! !" You properly called her out on concluding the contrary from Ephesians, but you drew an unqualified faith-is-not-a-gift conclusion (with three exclamation marks). So, I pointed out that you needed to qualify your declaration as being unsupported by Ephesians, not as being untrue for that reason alone.