TULIP an open discussion

[Ritajanice]

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God.

So we hear His Word, which then brings faith.

Much love!

I don’t believe that is the same thing as being Born Of The Spirit...

 

[Ritajanice]

John 1:12-13 KJV
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Much love!

We receive him when “ HE” by his will gives birth to our spirit....how do we know when Spirit gives birth to spirit?xx

How would we know when this is happening?

Remember the rebirth is a “ Living event” a Spiritual Living event that only God can do, via his “ Living Spirit”.....xx

 

[Ritajanice]

As many as received Him . . . active voice verb here, something we do . . . these were the ones God gives rebirth to.

If you did something, to receive the Spirit, then that is a “ work” on your part..

Also God says you never know the time or place when the Spirit will ...Spirit gives birth to spirit.

You only know the moment it happens..it sounds like you were preparing yourself to become Born Again...you said you gave in eventually....all of that is work.

We don’t work at being Born Again....xx

That’s the miracle rebirth.

I find this subject fascinating....and could discuss it all day every day.xx

You also say we shall know them by their fruit and yes that is Gods fruit, Jesus fruit.

Why do you think my fruit has been pretty unsavoury on this forum at times?xx

 

[quietthinker]

Can you explain what your having difficulty with, I’ve had this said a few times from members?

If you communicate the difficulty, then maybe I can explain?xx

The difficulty is the key isn't used.....and why isn't it used? because the key is not recognised......and why is that? because when it is presented it is dismissed with pious 'knowing'.

 

[Ritajanice]

The difficulty is the key isn't used.....and why isn't it used? because the key is not recognised......and why is that? because when it is presented it is dismissed with pious 'knowing'.

Ok..thank you quiethinker,xx

 

[CadyandZoe]

Actually, force is inherent in the meaning of predestination, prohoridzo. To place limits in advance. When God limits something a certain way, limited it is.

Much love!

No, force is not inherent in the meaning of predestination. Consider a movie, for instance. The process of making a movie begins with a script. The director blocks the action, the actors play the characters, the editor cuts the film together and the finished movie is projected onto a screen. The dialog and the action are predetermined by the author and the script.

If we rent the movie, we can see the ending from the beginning. And no matter how often we watch the movie, it always turns out the same way. People always make the same decisions and the situation and location are always the same. The entire movie was predestined and no one was coerced against their will or forced to do anything. Each character acts according to his or her own free will according to the motives and emotions belonging to that character.

The plot of the movie was/is predestined and no one was forced to behave against their will.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Do you remember when he put out directives for people to be murdered like he did with Michael Servetus?

John calvin was like the catholics and like the people in islam in that he enjoyed having those killed that did not agree with his fake gospel. The Bible does not teach it's OK to have people murdered doe sit?

Okay, I think you are in the wrong discussion because we are discussing theology in this thread. Yes?

 

[mailmandan]

My understanding is that the doctrine of Total Depravity is that man is a completely falled being, incapable of doing or desiring good, unable to believe in God, and dead to all things spiritual. Unless God will unilaterally act on a man to cause him to be regenerated, and henceforth to believe, that man will never believe, cannot ever believe, and so be saved.

Paul quoted from the Psalms,

Romans 3:10-18 KJV
10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15) Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16) Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17) And the way of peace have they not known:
18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.

The doctrine of "prevenient grace" is that God has given to each man a grace that allows them to choose to believe if that is what they want.

Titus 2, the grace of God unto salvation has appeared to all men, John 1, Jesus is the true light coming into the world that enlightens every man.

I would answer, yes, total depravity is Biblical, but not in the way the Calvinist would say, that none can choose Christ until after regeneration, which is itself unbiblical. Repentance comes before salvation in every place it's spoken of.

Much love!

At one time I thought I agreed with the T in TULIP, but after thoroughly reading how Calvinists define total depravity, I guess I don't. Because of the fall, I do believe that man has inherited a corrupted, depraved nature, but I believe that God's grace can enable a person to respond to God's call to salvation. I don't believe that drawing (John 6:44) or enabling (John 6:65) equates to regeneration and I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who will answer the call to salvation as if we have no choice in the matter.

 

[CadyandZoe]

My apologies to Presbyterians. It was not my idea to place this thread in the "Unorthodox Forum" and imply that Presbyterianism is unorthodox.

 

[Ritajanice]

No, force is not inherent in the meaning of predestination. Consider a movie, for instance. The process of making a movie begins with a script. The director blocks the action, the actors play the characters, the editor cuts the film together and the finished movie is projected onto a screen. The dialog and the action are predetermined by the author and the script.

If we rent the movie, we can see the ending from the beginning. And no matter how often we watch the movie, it always turns out the same way. People always make the same decisions and the situation and location are always the same. The entire movie was predestined and no one was coerced against their will or forced to do anything. Each character acts according to his or her own free will according to the motives and emotions belonging to that character.

The plot of the movie was/is predestined and no one was forced to behave against their will.

Absolutely!!...just as God predestined us to receive his Spirit...he was working in our hearts to receive His Spirit.

Freewillers don’t understand this..their human understanding brings them to believe he forced his will onto us..imo.xx

 

[Ritajanice]

People also ask..commentary.

What does it mean that we are predestined?
Predestination, in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul. Explanations of predestination often seek to address the paradox of free will, whereby God's omniscience seems incompatible with human free will.

 

[Ritajanice]

We hear God’s Spirit speak to our “ heart” then I always test what the witness of the Spirit is conveying to my heart,then obviously relaying his word to my mind.

God is a Living Spirit and he speaks to us via his “ Living “ Spirit,xx

It’s his Living word that needs to penetrate our heart, so that we can hear what he’s saying....xx

Commentary.

In Matthew 13:16 Jesus said unto his disciples, “but blessed are your eyes, because they see, and your ears, because they hear.” (NASB) In the preceding verse 11 Jesus told his disciples “to you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.” (NASB) Our spiritual eyes are blessed to see and our spiritual ears are blessed to hear. Unto us it is given the spiritual ability to accurately discern, hear, and see spiritual things with clarity; to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God. It is written in 1 John 2:20 “but you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.” (NKJV) Our born again Spirits have the God-given ability to see and hear spiritual things and principles with clarity and accuracy.

This God-given ability to see and hear spiritual things with clarity depends on our willingness to humble ourselves before God and to submit to his Spirit, the Word, and his ways. We must cultivate a lifestyle of submission to the Spirit of the Lord and his Word. In Acts 6:2-4, the apostles said it was not good to neglect the Word, that they must devote themselves to prayer and ministry of the Word, and that men filled with the Spirit were to be appointed to serve the ministry of helps. The impact of these decisions to place the Word and Spirit first, led to signs, wonders, miracles, the Word increasing, and exponential multiplication on the numbers of believers. The book of Acts records many instances on the impact of submission to the leading and guiding of the Spirit of the Lord. According to Acts 17:6, these Spirit and Word led men and women turned the world upside down.

How do we develop and fine tune our spiritual eyes and ears? It is very simple. In John 6:63 Jesus said that his words were spirit and life. And it is written in John 1:1 “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (NASB) It all begins with the Word of God which he has exalted above his name, which endures forever, which will never pass away, and feeds very life of God into our spirits. As we exalt the Word of God, giving it first place in our lives by continually hearing it, seeing it, reading it, meditating upon it, praying it, and doing it, our real selves, the spirit man or woman in us, will begin to grow and build itself up gaining ascendancy over the voices of our soul and flesh. Spiritual things can only be spiritually discerned through the spirit and not the soul or the flesh. It is written in 1 Corinthians 2:14 “but the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (KJV) There is much more which can be written on how the human spirit, soul, and flesh operates; and how to rise up and continually let the spirit of the Lord in union with your spirit cause our spirits to submit to the leading of the Holy Spirit. But these principles will follow separately in other writings.

A second step to take in fine tuning our spiritual eyes and ears is building up ourselves praying in the Spirit. It is written in Jude 20 “but you beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit.” (NASB) This is a spiritual mystery that taps into the very power and life of God which infuses our spirit man or woman with God’s life. Helping us to be strengthen with the very might of God to empower our spirits to rightly discern the soul and spirit, and to gain mastery over our natural tendency to allow our physical senses, the flesh, to rule over our Spirits.

There are a number of other steps which are crucial in developing spiritual eyes and ears to see and hear, but for brevity in this article will follow in other posts. In closing, it is imperative to understand that developing spiritual eyes and ears is also very dependent on how much time we give to hear, meditate, and spiritually study these spiritual principles. It is written in Mark 4:24-28 “and He said to them, be careful what you are hearing. The measure [of thought and study] you give [to the truth you hear] will be the measure [of virtue and knowledge] that comes back to you—and more [besides] will be given to you who hear. For to him who has will more be given; and from him who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away [by force], and He said, the kingdom of God is like a man who scatters seed upon the ground, and then continues sleeping and rising night and day while the seed sprouts and grows and increases—he knows not how. The earth produces [acting] by itself—first the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear.” (AMPC) Cultivating a daily lifestyle of giving the Word and Spirit first place in your life, will develop your spiritual eyes and ears to see and hear spiritual things with clarity.

 

[APAK]

People also ask..commentary.

What does it mean that we are predestined?
Predestination, in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul. Explanations of predestination often seek to address the paradox of free will, whereby God's omniscience seems incompatible with human free will.

Wow...there's wisdom in your words here. Human 'free' will is over-rated, indeed. And to believe it is 'free' to choose anytime, anyplace, for anything potentially, without external or internal influence is the height of sheer ignorance.

We do not just sit down one day with all the pertinent scripture for salvation and bang them out one by one and call out to the lord and say I want saved....nothing will happen. As I said to you in my brief testimony, I was already possessed by the Spirit, I felt this strong overpowering 'wind' well before the holy writ was seen, read, or known of of the gospel for salvation.

Keep up the great work RitaJ....you are right on the money

 

[Wrangler]

Wow...there's wisdom in your words here. Human 'free' will is over-rated, indeed. And to believe it is 'free' to choose anytime, anyplace, for anything potentially, without external or internal influence is the height of sheer ignorance.

We do not just sit down one day with all the pertinent scripture for salvation and bang them out one by one and call out to the lord and say I want saved....nothing will happen. As I said to you in my brief testimony, I was already possessed by the Spirit, I felt this strong overpowering 'wind' well before the holy writ was seen, read, or known of of the gospel for salvation.

Keep up the great work RitaJ....you are right on the money

I disagree. Call me ignorant, if you will. Predestination has been demonized because it has been abused to contradict the notion of human moral agency, upending any system of justice - divine or otherwise. Of course, we are a product of our upbringing, environment and force of habits but there is still the element of choice, independent of coercion or mindless programming.

In reality, Predestination is merely the consequence of God creating time and existing outside of time, itself. It is an existence we, temporal beings, cannot comprehend.

Also denied is that everything plays out according to God's will. There is a difference between willing something - like the fall of man - and allowing things to happen. Because man has some semblance of control, we plan our dominion of Earth per Genesis 1:26. God set up the fundamental laws of nature and only ocassionally intercedes. Such events are called miracles. The best way I've heard it described is that we are on a ship and can do anything and go anywhere we want on the ship, but God is piloting and steering the ship's final destination, which drives our final destination.


People do their best making plans for their lives,
but the Eternal guides each step.
Proverbs 16:9 (VOICE)

 

[Ritajanice]

Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Walking by the Spirit (Ezekiel 36:16–38; Galatians 5:16–26) 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set youb free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the fleshd cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alivee because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the deadf will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you. Heirs with Christ 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him. Future Glory (2 Corinthians 5:1–10) 18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. God Works in All Things (Ephesians 1:3–14) 28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. 31What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us. More than Conquerors (Psalm 44:1–26) 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: “For Your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”g 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Behold]

No, force is not inherent in the meaning of predestination

According to Demonic Calvin's "pre-destined" theology, a person is chosen before they are born, to go to hell.

"forced". "made".... "sent".... and they never had a choice.

Whereas this Heretic teaches that if you are a Christian, its not because you had a choice. = "pre-destined" before you were born.

No "choice" = forced, made, caused......

= Puppet.

= Calvin's Lie, among others.

-

 

[Ritajanice]

I think the free Willers don’t understand those who believe they were predestined and chosen by God...I 100% believe I was chosen and predestined..I can see that now, looking back over my life...imo of course.

The you get those who believe they were chosen and predestined to become Born Again...can’t get their head around free will as it makes no sense to us.

Therefore we all go round in circles, repeating the same thing over and over.

I didn’t know that Calvin believe that God predestined some to hell.

God is all knowing though, so he can see the beginning of our life to the end....

So, he can see our past present and future, to the day we die...is that right? Xx

 

[CadyandZoe]

According to Demonic Calvin's "pre-destined" theology, a person is chosen before they are born, to go to hell.

"forced". "made".... "sent".... and they never had a choice.

Whereas this Heretic teaches that if you are a Christian, its not because you had a choice. = "pre-destined" before you were born.

No "choice" = forced, made, caused......

= Puppet.

= Calvin's Lie, among others.

-
View attachment 44052

You are assigning Calvin's critics' words to him, making him say things he wouldn't say. But have you never read Romans 9?

 

[Behold]

You are assigning Calvin's critics' words to him,

Here is what Calvin did.

He listened to a demon in his head... who told him..

1.) "God's foreknowledge" means that God knows everything before it happens, and i want you to change that into "God causes everything". = (Pre-destines)

2.) A believer is born again, and after they die, they will be "conformed into the image of Christ"... and i want you to teach (change) that into... """"""they are "predestined before they are born, to be saved or go to hell"

3.). We know that the Devil (our father) is the cause of evil, So..... i want you to state in your Theology that God causes it all. (Get Christians to blame God for evil).

4.) Tell Real Christians and unbelievers that they have no free-will. and include in that LIE>... that Eve didnt choose the apple and God made Adam (forced him)(pre-destined him) to eat it.

5.) Tell them that Jesus didn't die for everyone, just some. (Dumb down the Cross of Christ). (Spit on it).(Limit it).

And Calvin obeyed and wrote his Theology and his Disciples believe it and can't stop trying to convince real believers that its TRUE.

They are obsessed...with Calvinism.... and "christian" Forums are infected with them.

Who is to blame for that reality, is a real good question..

 

[Ritajanice]

You are assigning Calvin's critics' words to him, making him say things he wouldn't say. But have you never read Romans 9?

Romans 9​

​

King James Version​

​

​

9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.