Well, believers have many various jobs in this world.....and the bible says whatsoever you do, do as UNTO THE LORD. Obey your superiors but not if they direct you to do something that is sinful and against your conscience. If you have to go to war, conduct yourself honourably, not like what we have heard of Russian troops in the Ukraine and Hamas when they attacked Israel back in October.
Trump shot at and injured but alive
- Thread starter Riven
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Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Christians fighting against Christians (and non-Christians) for the nations of this world; something which the Messiah’s original disciples didn’t do and the Messiah said they wouldn’t do (John 18:36).
Military service -> a good candidate for “come out from among them and be separate”?
Bible says governments are God's ministers to punish evil-doers, and they don't bear the sword for nothing. Justice is a righteous thing, not un-righteous. Just my personal opinion, but it is something I believe that should be left to the individual believer's conscience. If someone comes to faith in Christ while in the military, well they might eventually be led by the Lord to leave it....or not. Remember the Roman soldier who asked Jesus what he should do? Jesus didn't tell him to quit the Roman army. Think if one is drafted in a time of extremity, they probably ought to obey their government.......if their conscience is troubled they might consider being a medic or some other non-combatant role if they can.
That’s right. At the time it was written, Christians weren’t in those positions. Unbelievers were.
Leave it to unbelievers in our day?
There was no quitting the Roman army. Unbelievers who became believers while serving in the army were persecuted by the army when found out.
If the army requires draftees to worship idols - which those serving in the Roman army were required to do - the believer should obey?
Christians killing fellow Christians doesn’t sound like something that the Messiah would support.
Think there are not many true believers in government, or anywhere really. God only has a remnant.
No of course no-one should do anything that violates God's laws.
“As it was then, so it is now” -> unbelievers serving as God’s ministers to punish evil doers. That looks like the NT biblical model.
Setting aside for the moment unbelievers, Christians killing fellow Christians violates God’s law. That’s a good starting point in the military service conversation.
PS95
Well-Known Member
Cops are also God’s ministers to keep order and punish evil doers.
The cops in Jesus’ day was the pagan Roman military.
Unbelievers serving as God’s ministers to keep order and punish evil doers is God’s will.
PS95
Well-Known Member
Believers killing fellow believers isn’t the will of God.
The Messiah wouldn’t be pleased with that, but the devil would.
PS95
Well-Known Member
Many sects refuse military service. Most dont and leave to conscience. That's where I leave it also.
there is no difference btwn a cop and military- all are God's ministers. Romans 13
You say they must be unbelievers and I that's not so.
Jesus to the Centurion- be content with your pay--
and.. Matt 8
And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, 6 and saying, “Lord, my servant is ]ying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented.” 7 Jesus *said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the centurion said, “Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.” 10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11 I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 And Jesus said to the centurion, “Go;it shall be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed that very moment.
So it is you who says that and not the Lord.
Have your opinion Matt. I have had that minset too as jw upbringing. Now, I leave to to conscience as the Lord did.
God is over all. all. All.
Plenty of wars in the OT and who was in charge? He doesnt change. They were told to love one another also. Yet, war happened.
there is no difference btwn a cop and military- all are God's ministers. Romans 13
You say they must be unbelievers and I that's not so.
Jesus to the Centurion- be content with your pay--
and.. Matt 8
And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, 6 and saying, “Lord, my servant is ]ying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented.” 7 Jesus *said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the centurion said, “Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.” 10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11 I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 And Jesus said to the centurion, “Go;it shall be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed that very moment.
So it is you who says that and not the Lord.
Have your opinion Matt. I have had that minset too as jw upbringing. Now, I leave to to conscience as the Lord did.
God is over all. all. All.
Plenty of wars in the OT and who was in charge? He doesnt change. They were told to love one another also. Yet, war happened.
We aren’t living in Old Testament times. Many Christians seem to think we are, and act like it.
Neither Jesus nor the Apostles called upon believers to defend the Roman Empire. Neither Jesus nor the Apostles called upon believers to keep order in society or punish evil doers.
The early disciples didn’t act in this matter the way the many approve, even encourage, now.
What happened to soldiers who became believers while serving in the Roman military? There were few in the 1st century. Initially, they were killed by the Roman military when it became known. As time passed, they were discharged when discovered. Later still, they became the majority in the military.
If a believing person’s conscience allows him or her to kill and injure fellow believers, I would say that person’s conscience is more aligned with the world and it’s physical weapons than with the Messiah and his spiritual weapons.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Surely you don't believe it's God's will for unbelievers to rule over believers, do ya?
Just because that's how things are does not mean the Lord directed them to be that way.
What did the early Church fathers say about those who voluntarily joined the Roman military? It depends on how early we look. For the first couple of centuries, they rejected it, and rejected those who joined the military. There is much discussion about allowing / not allowing those who served in the military to return to the church after persecuting it. By the 4th century, the Roman Empire was no longer persecuting Christians. The attitude of the Church toward Christians serving in the military shifted - the majority now seeing it as a good thing.
This is to say nothing about believers killing unbelievers. That isn’t in keeping with the great commission.
Believers persecuting fellow believers, even to the point of death, was once a major issue. Today, it’s often considered just a sad necessity.
This is to say nothing about believers killing unbelievers. That isn’t in keeping with the great commission.
Believers persecuting fellow believers, even to the point of death, was once a major issue. Today, it’s often considered just a sad necessity.
See the Roman Empire.
The Lord spoke through Paul. Paul (and his fellow believers) was living under the rule of the pagan Roman Empire.
Paul’s solution was / is to live under that worldly system. That worldly system will be replaced by the Messiah’s system when the Messiah returns.
PS95
Well-Known Member
I agree with you matt. Yes many do that. Especially with what happens after death.
It's not OT times. we agree- BUT YHWH is still YHWH and since he justified wars before while giving the command to love one another- He was saying something that you are arguing against. You arent arguing with me.
I've told you I leave to conscience. I will never say all policemen and military are unbelievers. You dont know that. I and leave this discussion here.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
This is like those who claim it was God's will for Adam to sin.... it's bulloney!
So those not living under roman rule today are out of the will of God?
I guess we all need to move to Italy so we can be in right standing with the Lord.
You are leaving out lots of scripture where the Lord instructs those in authority how to act... but that's to be expected when top toeing thru the TULIPs
I’m not arguing against Yahweh. I’m arguing against people who say that Yahweh wants those under the New Covenant to kill their enemies.
I like your appeal to conscience. I seldom self-identify as a pacifist (because most people have it stuck in their heads that all pacifists are the same - they’re not - and that pacifists advocate doing noting at all in the face of evil - some do, some don’t; I don’t.) I constantly refer to myself as a consxientious objector.
Neither will I. In fact, I can personally attest to knowing many who are believers.
That’s right.
It was a good discussion. Thank you.
***
A rhetorical question: Does the military train soldiers to love their enemies or does the military train soldiers to kill their enemies?
A seceond rhetorical question: Does the clergy train disciples to love their enemies or does the clergy train disciples to kill their enemies?
It wasn’t God’s will for Adam to sin.
I‘m speaking about simple church history during and under the reign of the Roman Empire.
No. You’ve apparently missed the point.
Not hardly.
Paul had authority within the church, not outside the church.
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