True or false?

[Jane_Doe22]

It's the ultimate authority that overrides the opinions of men, the opinions of religions.

Amen to that and God's words in general.

 

[Nondenom40]

The doctrine of "once saved always saved" was introduced into Christian beliefs by satan, because who else but satan wants Christians to avoid doing God's work. Most people go along with these doctrine because it is safe and easy, there is no fear they will go to Hell so they adopt it. Two scriptures said by Jesus calls out these types of beliefs:

I prefer perseverance of the saints myself. And i've never associated that teaching with antinomianism, which is what youre suggesting. We bear fruit because we are saved, not to be saved.

Jesus is speaking directly in a large part to those he knows at the end will be under the false doctrine of not needing works, and thinking they have a free pass to Heaven. Matthew 16 directly addresses this false doctrine, "Son of man shall come....he shall reward every man according to his works...there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man". This goes back to Matthew 7 telling us is "narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it". What is "narrow" or hard about "I believe Jesus is the Son of God!" That is great! But...it brings us to:

What else does Matt 7 say? There are those that are DOING works; miracles in your name, casting out demons...What did Jesus tell them? Depart from me...I never knew you. Works without the relationship is meaningless. They did works and were still booted because they didn't know Him. Thats the key.

But there will be the people set in traditions of man, who will bring up the one and only verse "we are saved by grace, lest any man boast". The keyword here is "BOAST", not that Jesus is a liar and James is a liar. The point is just to humble people, that doing works and trying to get to Heaven WITHOUT God's grace and permission is not going to happen, you need both. But the most ironic thing about people quoting Ephesians is that they are saying "Paul is the true prophet of God, Jesus Christ was a liar when he keeps talking about works". If Jesus says you need works and Paul says you do not need works, who as CHRIStians are we suppose to listen too? Jesus. So if Jesus is right and knows more about his Father's law then Paul, then the next step is to figure out what Paul was trying to tell us since he was not calling Jesus a liar. Again, the keyword "boast" comes in, and Christians not trying to enter Heaven without God's grace.

No, the key word which was left out is 'not of works'.
Romans 3:28
Eph 2:8-9
2 Tim 1:9
Titus 3:5....and on and on and on. Salvation is not of works, but faith.

 

[farouk]

I prefer perseverance of the saints myself.

Romans 8.38-39 is very clear.

 

[Mal'ak]

What else does Matt 7 say? There are those that are DOING works; miracles in your name, casting out demons...What did Jesus tell them? Depart from me...I never knew you. Works without the relationship is meaningless. They did works and were still booted because they didn't know Him. Thats the key.


No, the key word which was left out is 'not of works'.
Romans 3:28
Eph 2:8-9
2 Tim 1:9
Titus 3:5....and on and on and on. Salvation is not of works, but faith.

I clearly said, the Ephesians and other scripture about being saved by Grace is saying you need both Grace and Works. So of course, people that are doing religious "works" not guided by the Holy Spirit or in Jesus' name would be rebuked by Jesus...apples and oranges. That is also a nice list of scripture, Paul...Timothy...and on and on...but not one scripture from Jesus Christ to support it, so clearly you are just not understanding the context of the Apostles words. If you worship Paul as your God, then that is fine, but I gave scripture of Jesus saying when he returns those Christians without works will be thrown into outer darkness. Bringing up Apostle scripture out of context, does not prove Jesus Christ is a liar.

 

[illini1959]

The doctrine of "once saved always saved" was introduced into Christian beliefs by satan, because who else but satan wants Christians to avoid doing God's work. Most people go along with these doctrine because it is safe and easy, there is no fear they will go to Hell so they adopt it. Two scriptures said by Jesus calls out these types of beliefs:

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Jesus is speaking directly in a large part to those he knows at the end will be under the false doctrine of not needing works, and thinking they have a free pass to Heaven. Matthew 16 directly addresses this false doctrine, "Son of man shall come....he shall reward every man according to his works...there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man". This goes back to Matthew 7 telling us is "narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it". What is "narrow" or hard about "I believe Jesus is the Son of God!" That is great! But...it brings us to:

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

But there will be the people set in traditions of man, who will bring up the one and only verse "we are saved by grace, lest any man boast". The keyword here is "BOAST", not that Jesus is a liar and James is a liar. The point is just to humble people, that doing works and trying to get to Heaven WITHOUT God's grace and permission is not going to happen, you need both. But the most ironic thing about people quoting Ephesians is that they are saying "Paul is the true prophet of God, Jesus Christ was a liar when he keeps talking about works". If Jesus says you need works and Paul says you do not need works, who as CHRIStians are we suppose to listen too? Jesus. So if Jesus is right and knows more about his Father's law then Paul, then the next step is to figure out what Paul was trying to tell us since he was not calling Jesus a liar. Again, the keyword "boast" comes in, and Christians not trying to enter Heaven without God's grace.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The assurance of salvation doesn't mean believers stop trying to do "God's work."

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" Romans 6:1-2

But works come as a result of salvation - not to earn it.

The second chapter of James should be taken in context...prior to the verses you quoted he says in vs 14 "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" That's the gist of the passages ending with vs 29 "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

Is the person truly saved or not?

Jesus doesn't require works. If works were required for salvation, what was the point of the cross?

Here's what Jesus says about salvation: " “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Jn 3:16

:)

 

[farouk]

The assurance of salvation doesn't mean believers stop trying to do "God's work."

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" Romans 6:1-2

But works come as a result of salvation - not to earn it.

The second chapter of James should be taken in context...prior to the verses you quoted he says in vs 14 "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" That's the gist of the passages ending with vs 29 "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

Is the person truly saved or not?

Jesus doesn't require works. If works were required for salvation, what was the point of the cross?

Here's what Jesus says about salvation: " “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Jn 3:16

:)

Ephesians 2.10 is a good verse about the works that follow faith, even though 'not of works' is an important statement in Ephesians 2.9. John's First Epistle has a lot about the believer's assurance of faith.

 

[Mal'ak]

The assurance of salvation doesn't mean believers stop trying to do "God's work."

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" Romans 6:1-2

But works come as a result of salvation - not to earn it.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If you read the context of Romans 6, Paul tells us what the lesson he is teaching, which is "to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; either of sin...or of obedience". So there is no such thing as when you become a Christian God enters you and moves you to be righteous and to do works, Paul in Romans 6 is saying just because there is grace and forgiveness does not mean you can sin, because if you live in sin you are a servant to evil now instead of God's servant. Paul is giving a warning, saying to being a Christian is "obedience". Now Obedience is not God mind forcing you to be good, it means you still have free will to choose to do evil or to do good, and those Christians that choose to be obedient will have salvation...part of that obedience is doing works. As Jesus said, "Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." The servant is a Christian, but he did no works for God and was not obedient, so when Jesus returns he will have his crown of life stripped from him and placed with the non-believers during the thousand year reign.

Acts 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Proverbs 14:2 He that walketh in his uprightness feareth the Lord: but he that is perverse in his ways despiseth him.

The reason we are told "he that walketh in his uprightness feareth the Lord", is because like children, we learn to be good people because we fear our parents will punish us. Same is true with being a Christian, the early churches in Acts were "walking in the fear of the Lord...were multiplied". They grew as a Church and children learn to be good people, because they feared the punishment more then they valued their desire to do something bad. We are in the flesh and we sin, why the Word of God says "1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." But fearing God's wrath in Acts/Proverbs ties directly with Romans 6 saying to be "obedient" to be a servant of God, which shows proven actions.

The second chapter of James should be taken in context...prior to the verses you quoted he says in vs 14 "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" That's the gist of the passages ending with vs 29 "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

Is the person truly saved or not?

I don't see the point here, even in 29 you quoted it still says "faith without works is dead", there is no context that changes the meaning...from the first verse stating it until the end of the chapter, the message is the same. I will support James with Jesus and John:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Both when Jesus comes to separate the sheep from the goat, he will do so by works, those that have proven themselves with works will rule with Jesus. Then after the thousand years, the "goats" will stand before the Father at the White Throne, and they too will be in the book of life and having salvation based on their works.

Jesus doesn't require works. If works were required for salvation, what was the point of the cross?

Here's what Jesus says about salvation: " “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Jn 3:16

:)

That is true, but;

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

IF WE CONFESS, again another act of obedience, Jesus dying on the cross was not a automatic entry to Heaven. The point of it was that those obedient servants of God seeking to be righteous will still sin, but because of Jesus' sacrifice they can confess their sins and be made clean. But the Word of God clearly shows it is not an automatic, you need to acknowledge you sinned against God, then ask for forgiveness from the Father in Jesus' name or you will not receive forgiveness.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

We are also told, if we do not forgive others and show Godly love, the Father will not forgive us for our sins and we will go to Hell. Because without forgiveness we are corrupted, and corruption can not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. So again, acts of obedience, showing the Father you are a righteous person by forgiving others.

 

[Nondenom40]

I clearly said, the Ephesians and other scripture about being saved by Grace is saying you need both Grace and Works.

So, Eph 2 specifically says 'not of works' but you say it is saying you need grace and works? How do you get works from 'not of works'?

So of course, people that are doing religious "works" not guided by the Holy Spirit or in Jesus' name would be rebuked by Jesus...apples and oranges.

These people did works in Jesus' name;

Matt 7:22-23
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' NASB

These people did works in Jesus name, some it says did 'many' miracles. They were cast out. Why? Not for works or lack of works but something else. Can you tell us what that is?

That is also a nice list of scripture, Paul...Timothy...and on and on...but not one scripture from Jesus Christ to support it, so clearly you are just not understanding the context of the Apostles words. If you worship Paul as your God, then that is fine, but I gave scripture of Jesus saying when he returns those Christians without works will be thrown into outer darkness. Bringing up Apostle scripture out of context, does not prove Jesus Christ is a liar.

Bringing up Jesus out of context, doesn't prove the apostles are liars. And no one worships Paul so that strawman is all yours. Oh, here is a verse from Jesus just to show i don't worship Paul;

Luke 7:50
50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." NASB

What other qualifier besides faith does Jesus give regarding her salvation? Please list that for us.

 

[Pearl]

The man on the cross next to Jesus did no 'works'. His faith alone saved him.

 

[Nondenom40]

The man on the cross next to Jesus did no 'works'. His faith alone saved him.

True. But the synergists think breathing is a work when it comes to salvation.

 

[Pearl]

Sitting in the garden just now and thinking/meditating about the faith and works question and it became clear to me that having faith in Jesus and failing to obey his words is faith without works and carrying out all that Jesus commanded but without the personal relationship with him is works without faith. What God requires of us is that when we accept Jesus we also obey him. Faith plus works.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Sitting in the garden just now and thinking/meditating about the faith and works question and it became clear to me that having faith in Jesus and failing to obey his words is faith without works and carrying out all that Jesus commanded but without the personal relationship with him is works without faith. What God requires of us is that when we accept Jesus we also obey him. Faith plus works.

Real faith & real love changes a person into a disciple: "If you love me, keep my commandments" - Jesus Christ.

 

[Nondenom40]

Sitting in the garden just now and thinking/meditating about the faith and works question and it became clear to me that having faith in Jesus and failing to obey his words is faith without works and carrying out all that Jesus commanded but without the personal relationship with him is works without faith. What God requires of us is that when we accept Jesus we also obey him. Faith plus works.

Right, works follow our being born again. Once we are new creations we desire the work God has for us;

Titus 2
14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
NASB.

 

[Nancy]

Sitting in the garden just now and thinking/meditating about the faith and works question and it became clear to me that having faith in Jesus and failing to obey his words is faith without works and carrying out all that Jesus commanded but without the personal relationship with him is works without faith. What God requires of us is that when we accept Jesus we also obey him. Faith plus works.

Simple, yes? ♥
IMHO, if one grumbles about helping someone or doing good...it is "works of the flesh". But, if one does those same things and is more than happy to do them, it is the true "works of the Spirit".
♥

 

[SkyWriting]

While we were out in town today we were approached by two Mormon missionaries. We told them we had been born-again Christians for a long time and my husband asked if they believed they would go to heaven. They told us that their place in heaven had to be earned through good works. What do you believe? True or false? Personally I believe it to be false and they are spreading a different gospel.

The new covenant is one of love providing forgiveness for all imperfections.
The first and obsolete covenant was one of following the law for just behavior.

 

[Episkopos]

The new covenant is one of love providing forgiveness for all imperfections.
The first and obsolete covenant was one of following the law for just behavior.

Actually just behaviour is good. The New Covenant doesn't abolish just behaviour. Under the Old covenant nothing was made perfect.

Heb. 7:19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

What people mistake is the difference between the good and the perfect.

In the NT....we enter into the perfect who is Christ. Forgiveness is not the end...but the means of getting us to abide in Christ.

 

[Pearl]

The new covenant is one of love providing forgiveness for all imperfections.
The first and obsolete covenant was one of following the law for just behavior.

@SkyWriting So is that a 'true' or 'false'?

 

[marks]

In the NT....we enter into the perfect who is Christ. Forgiveness is not the end...but the means of getting us to abide in Christ.

This begins when we are born again, and continues for eternity. If we have been truly born again.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

"Not of works" (Ephesians 2.9)

 

[illini1959]

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If you read the context of Romans 6, Paul tells us what the lesson he is teaching, which is "to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; either of sin...or of obedience". So there is no such thing as when you become a Christian God enters you and moves you to be righteous and to do works, Paul in Romans 6 is saying just because there is grace and forgiveness does not mean you can sin, because if you live in sin you are a servant to evil now instead of God's servant. Paul is giving a warning, saying to being a Christian is "obedience". Now Obedience is not God mind forcing you to be good, it means you still have free will to choose to do evil or to do good, and those Christians that choose to be obedient will have salvation...part of that obedience is doing works. As Jesus said, "Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." The servant is a Christian, but he did no works for God and was not obedient, so when Jesus returns he will have his crown of life stripped from him and placed with the non-believers during the thousand year reign.

We are absolutely indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon accepting Christ.

Romans 8:9 "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

If we've accepted Christ we have the Spirit as anyone who doesn't have the Spirit of Christ doesn't belong to Him.

How do you reconcile the verses that say we are indwelt by the Spirit? E.g., in addition to the one above:

1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Or the fact that there is a transformation not of our own doing?

2 Cor 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

In keeping with the context of the chapter, the very next verses, 17-18, "But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."

Obedience doesn't save us. Believers are no longer slaves to sin - that means our nature has changed - now we are slaves to righteousness. This is no way by our own doing.

As for having the crown of life 'stripped from him', that isn't scriptural.

"Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him." James 1:12

First, as James says, the crown of life will go to someone who's already stood the test and second, do you think God reneges on the gifts He gives?

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:29

Acts 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Proverbs 14:2 He that walketh in his uprightness feareth the Lord: but he that is perverse in his ways despiseth him.

The reason we are told "he that walketh in his uprightness feareth the Lord", is because like children, we learn to be good people because we fear our parents will punish us. Same is true with being a Christian, the early churches in Acts were "walking in the fear of the Lord...were multiplied". They grew as a Church and children learn to be good people, because they feared the punishment more then they valued their desire to do something bad. We are in the flesh and we sin, why the Word of God says "1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." But fearing God's wrath in Acts/Proverbs ties directly with Romans 6 saying to be "obedient" to be a servant of God, which shows proven actions.

The word for fear in this verse means reverence. Context includes studying the proper use/meaning of the words.

Strong's Concordance 5401
phobos Usage: (a) fear, terror, alarm, (b) the object or cause of fear, (c) reverence, respect.
reverence, respect (for authority, rank, dignity) Acts 9:31

Of course they wanted to be obedient, as we all do, but it wasn't out of fear of punishment. The church you are presenting is one driven by fear. The church Christ began and the Apostles were building was one of boldness, joy. They knew it wouldn't be easy but they weren't doing these things because they were afraid of punishment if they didn't.

Acts 2:42-47 "And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. 43 And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. 44 And all who believed were together and had all things in common. 45 And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. 46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved."

there is no context that changes the meaning...from the first verse stating it until the end of the chapter, the message is the same. I will support James with Jesus and John:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Both when Jesus comes to separate the sheep from the goat, he will do so by works, those that have proven themselves with works will rule with Jesus. Then after the thousand years, the "goats" will stand before the Father at the White Throne, and they too will be in the book of life and having salvation based on their works.

While you're focusing on the 'faith without works' part of the verse (29) you have to see the rest of it -
"For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

The point still is, is the person truly saved or not?

The sheep are saved, we are His sheep. The goats are not saved. That is what judgement will be about - the only works that will be judged are believers works - for reward - not salvation. By the time judgement comes, sheep are already sheep and goats are already goats.

Works don't save.

illini1959 said: ↑
Jesus doesn't require works. If works were required for salvation, what was the point of the cross?

Here's what Jesus says about salvation: " “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Jn 3:16

That is true, but;

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

IF WE CONFESS, again another act of obedience, Jesus dying on the cross was not a automatic entry to Heaven. The point of it was that those obedient servants of God seeking to be righteous will still sin, but because of Jesus' sacrifice they can confess their sins and be made clean. But the Word of God clearly shows it is not an automatic, you need to acknowledge you sinned against God, then ask for forgiveness from the Father in Jesus' name or you will not receive forgiveness.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

We are also told, if we do not forgive others and show Godly love, the Father will not forgive us for our sins and we will go to Hell. Because without forgiveness we are corrupted, and corruption can not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. So again, acts of obedience, showing the Father you are a righteous person by forgiving others.

I'm not sure why you think I believe salvation is automatic. Of course it's not.

Christ dying on the Cross, and His subsequent resurrection, made salvation available to everyone. The free gift of salvation must be accepted.

Anyway, we may not agree here. I'm not stupid enough to think 'I'll' change anyone's mind - only the Holy Spirit can do that, but I appreciate you taking the time to discuss, thank you :)