Timing of the abomination of desolation

[1stCenturyLady]

implying that Jerusalem would fall.

Well, seeing as Jerusalem is still there, and only the temple Mount is empty, except for the Mosque, I disagree.

 

[Timtofly]

It, the Roman Army, destroys Jerusalem and the temple. The Roman Army even carried eagle standards, suggested by the "wing." Jesus mentioned that eagles would gather around the "corpse," ie fated Jerusalem. To the Jews, the idolatrous eagle standard of the Romans was an "abomination."

See, this point is not relative to 70AD at all. This was already addressed by Josephus concerning Pilate and events way before 30AD. The Jews had already addressed this point, and Rome complied. This would have not been an issue in 70AD. The Jews were very well capable of calling out this army as an AoD if needs be, or an annoyance. Roman occupation would have already been an AoD when Jesus was speaking the OD just prior to His crucifixion. What was different is that in the 60's many had tried to revolt, and Rome kept sending lager armies.

You would be correct in that it was one abomination that kept on producing abomination. Satan and the FP will set up this abomination in Jerusalem after the Second Coming. It will become the beast that will "change the world". In today's technology it is easy to see what a humanoid artificial intelligence can be, and even become. It will have no feelings and no empathy of humans one bit. Whatever happens, John never called it benevolent, but a beast, not to be trusted. Standing armies can never be an abomination like one single being, which causes abominations.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well, seeing as Jerusalem is still there, and only the temple Mount is empty, except for the Mosque, I disagree.

That's okay. Disagreeing well is a Christian virtue! :)

 

[Randy Kluth]

See, this point is not relative to 70AD at all. This was already addressed by Josephus concerning Pilate and events way before 30AD. The Jews had already addressed this point, and Rome complied. This would have not been an issue in 70AD. The Jews were very well capable of calling out this army as an AoD if needs be, or an annoyance. Roman occupation would have already been an AoD when Jesus was speaking the OD just prior to His crucifixion. What was different is that in the 60's many had tried to revolt, and Rome kept sending lager armies.

You would be correct in that it was one abomination that kept on producing abomination. Satan and the FP will set up this abomination in Jerusalem after the Second Coming. It will become the beast that will "change the world". In today's technology it is easy to see what a humanoid artificial intelligence can be, and even become. It will have no feelings and no empathy of humans one bit. Whatever happens, John never called it benevolent, but a beast, not to be trusted. Standing armies can never be an abomination like one single being, which causes abominations.

Well, not to belabor the point, we do agree in an endtimes Beast. I just happen to think it is the final play that began with ancient Rome. Same kind of people.

You don't get any worse than Caligula. But you do have to wonder how Satan's going to twist all of the cool new technology to become an instrument of ruthless death.

 

[covenantee]

Df is so pathologically obsessed with 70 AD that it is utterly incapable of comprehending the significance of 66 AD in the advance of the abomination of desolation -- the Roman armies -- upon Jerusalem; the Judean Christians' recognition and recollection of its prophetic relevance and significance; and their consequent flight of survival which Jesus had counselled years before.

Darby/Scofield futurist indoctrination is unsurpassed in its success within the undiscerning uncomprehending church.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Df is so pathologically obsessed with 70 AD that it is utterly incapable of comprehending the significance of 66 AD in the advance of the abomination of desolation -- the Roman armies -- upon Jerusalem; the Judean Christians' recognition and recollection of its prophetic relevance and significance; and their consequent flight of survival which Jesus had counselled years before.

Darby/Scofield futurist indoctrination is unsurpassed in its success within the undiscerning uncomprehending church.

What is Df? Yes, I'm not a supporter of some of the elements of Dispensationalism, but I do accept Futurism and the importance of Israel's Hope. I think Imminency Doctrine and the Pretribulational Rapture theory are wrong, and even harmful.

I do see the importance of understanding the Olivet Discourse in light of the AoD in 66-70 AD. Perhaps I'm even a little "obsessed" with it? ;)

 

[covenantee]

What is Df? Yes, I'm not a supporter of some of the elements of Dispensationalism, but I do accept Futurism and the importance of Israel's Hope. I think Imminency Doctrine and the Pretribulational Rapture theory are wrong, and even harmful.

I do see the importance of understanding the Olivet Discourse in light of the AoD in 66-70 AD. Perhaps I'm even a little "obsessed" with it? ;)

Dispensational futurism.

To which the reality of Scriptural historical fulfillment is abhorrent.

As df godfather John Nelson Darby declared:

"I do not admit history to be, in any sense, necessary to the understanding of prophecy."

Df was spawned in the attempts of the Dark Ages apostasized papacy to defeat the Reformation.

It failed then, but has now been succeeding for the last two centuries.

It's high time for another Reformation, to defeat df.

 

[covenantee]

I have no idea how you think Tim debunked anything here

I am a PP not a full one and I have never avoided 2 Thess 2:4 it was Nero who set himself up as God by demanding that everyone worship him including Gods temple (the church)

The Reformation identified the apostasized papacy as the man of sin and the primary antichrist of the era, which over the centuries usurped and arrogated spiritual authority within the Church.

That usurpation and arrogation included the popes declaring themselves to be the representatives and replications of God and His Son on the earth.

In its effort to defeat the Reformation, the apostasized papacy commissioned Jesuit Luis del Alcazar to attempt to prove the antichrist to be Nero. This was the apostasized papacy's preterist stratagem.

Simultaneously, the apostasized papacy commissioned Jesuit Francisco Ribera to attempt to prove the antichrist to be a single entity at the end of time. This was the apostasized papacy's futurist stratagem.

In dispensationalism's embrace of futurism, the futurist stratagem has succeeded far beyond all expectation.

Unfortunately, the preterist stratagem has also realized success, in blinding adherents to the meaning and significance of the Reformation.

The Church needs to return to the Reformation faith of the fathers.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Dispensational futurism.

To which the reality of Scriptural historical fulfillment is abhorrent.

As df godfather John Nelson Darby declared:

"I do not admit history to be, in any sense, necessary to the understanding of prophecy."

Df was spawned in the attempts of the Dark Ages apostasized papacy to defeat the Reformation.

It failed then, but has now been succeeding for the last two centuries.

It's high time for another Reformation, to defeat df.

At some point all future fulfillment of prophecy has an historical fulfillment. 70 AD was certainly an occasion for that, if you interpret the Olivet Discourse properly. But I don't believe Antichrist has been fulfilled yet because he must rule over an empire in Europe consisting of 10 nations, probably 5 in Eastern Europe and 5 in Western Europe, or something akin to that.

I don't want to believe most all prophecy was fulfilled in the past, ie preterism, that all prophecy is being fulfilled in current history, ie historicism, or that most all prophecy is to be fulfilled in the future, ie futurism. Let's let what is prophesied be fulfilled where it is actually fulfilled?

I don't like Dispensationalism because there is an excessive emphasis on Israel, as opposed to the rest of the nations of the world. And I don't like its "imminent expectation of Christ's Return," because it relies more on trying to anticipate things out of the news instead of relying on godly living.

 

[Marty fox]

The Reformation identified the apostasized papacy as the man of sin and the primary antichrist of the era, which over the centuries usurped and arrogated spiritual authority within the Church.

That usurpation and arrogation included the popes declaring themselves to be the representatives and replications of God and His Son on the earth.

In its effort to defeat the Reformation, the apostasized papacy commissioned Jesuit Luis del Alcazar to attempt to prove the antichrist to be Nero. This was the apostasized papacy's preterist stratagem.

Simultaneously, the apostasized papacy commissioned Jesuit Francisco Ribera to attempt to prove the antichrist to be a single entity at the end of time. This was the apostasized papacy's futurist stratagem.

In dispensationalism's embrace of futurism, the futurist stratagem has succeeded far beyond all expectation.

Unfortunately, the preterist stratagem has also realized success, in blinding adherents to the meaning and significance of the Reformation.

The Church needs to return to the Reformation faith of the fathers.

I don’t think that Nero was the antichrist but the sea beast of revelation. The sea beast and the antichrist are two very different entities. My view is entirely to do with revelation and history as history is what reveals the true interpretation of prophecies and nothing else.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That's okay. Disagreeing well is a Christian virtue! :)

I could be wrong. I was just reading that Titus destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D., as well as the temple. But why then are tourists in Jerusalem today saying they are walking on the same streets that Jesus walked? I don't understand. Do you know?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I don’t think that Nero was the antichrist but the sea beast of revelation. The sea beast and the antichrist are two very different entities. My view is entirely to do with revelation and history as history is what reveals the true interpretation of prophecies and nothing else.

You know, Marty, your view and covenantee's view are not mine, but I share elements of them. And that's because I find that within every system of interpretation there's truth. So I have something like the angel with a head like one animal, a body like another animal, wings, and a human face. ;)

 

[quietthinker]

Timing of the abomination of desolation
tickets on sale now!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I could be wrong. I was just reading that Titus destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D., as well as the temple. But why then are tourists in Jerusalem today saying they are walking on the same streets that Jesus walked? I don't understand. Do you know?

Yes, I think I do. Jesus said that Jerusalem's defeat in his generation would begin an age-long judgment for the Jewish People as a whole. That is, Rabbinic Judaism would be allowed to seduce and deceive the masses of Jewish People, while a relative few convert to Christianity.

This isn't what God ultimately wants, because He promised Abraham godly *nations,* and not just small parts of nations. He wanted healthy, Christian societies, and not just Christians enduring under pagan, oppressive systems.

But in order to allow all nations to have equal opportunity with the Jewish nation, God kept Israel in a state of suspended animation, spiritually speaking, preserving only a small remnant of faith until this process of world evangelism could be completed.

So over the whole of the Jewish nation remains a cloud of divine cursing, even as God prepares for final judgment. And that judgment will succeed in removing the ungodly leadership, and establishing the remnant of Christian believers as the model for the nation.

Therefore, Jerusalem now, at the end of this process of world evangelization, is returning to a place of final judgment and ultimate deliverance, on behalf of the remnant of Christian believers.

Israel will remain under punishment until Christ returns. But in the meantime there is still a Jewish remnant converting to the Christian faith. And the restoration of the Jewish State prepares a place for its ultimate Christianization at Christ's return.

The prophecy Jesus gave in his Olivet Discourse was only referencing the destruction of Jerusalem in that generation, which is what the Roman armies succeeded in doing. And this began the long Diaspora of the Jewish People, even as the Roman Empire converted to Christianity, beginning this world-wide outreach of the Gospel.

It is not that Jerusalem was to be destroyed forever, but that this destruction would end Jewish religion under the Law with the destruction of the temple. So Jewish religion as such died, replaced by an ungodly form called Rabbinic Judaism. It seeks to offer an alternative to Christian conversion for the Jewish People.

So Jerusalem was only temporarily destroyed, and its destruction was to start this process of Jewish punishment. What we see today is a return of the Jews to control over Jerusalem, signaling the soon fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham, to have a godly nation.

 

[ewq1938]

I could be wrong. I was just reading that Titus destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D., as well as the temple. But why then are tourists in Jerusalem today saying they are walking on the same streets that Jesus walked? I don't understand. Do you know?

Pretty sure they didn't destroy the roads.

 

[covenantee]

Yes, I think I do. Jesus said that Jerusalem's defeat in his generation would begin an age-long judgment for the Jewish People as a whole. That is, Rabbinic Judaism would be allowed to seduce and deceive the masses of Jewish People, while a relative few convert to Christianity.

This isn't what God ultimately wants, because He promised Abraham godly *nations,* and not just small parts of nations. He wanted healthy, Christian societies, and not just Christians enduring under pagan, oppressive systems.

But in order to allow all nations to have equal opportunity with the Jewish nation, God kept Israel in a state of suspended animation, spiritually speaking, preserving only a small remnant of faith until this process of world evangelism could be completed.

So over the whole of the Jewish nation remains a cloud of divine cursing, even as God prepares for final judgment. And that judgment will succeed in removing the ungodly leadership, and establishing the remnant of Christian believers as the model for the nation.

Therefore, Jerusalem now, at the end of this process of world evangelization, is returning to a place of final judgment and ultimate deliverance, on behalf of the remnant of Christian believers.

Israel will remain under punishment until Christ returns. But in the meantime there is still a Jewish remnant converting to the Christian faith. And the restoration of the Jewish State prepares a place for its ultimate Christianization at Christ's return.

The prophecy Jesus gave in his Olivet Discourse was only referencing the destruction of Jerusalem in that generation, which is what the Roman armies succeeded in doing. And this began the long Diaspora of the Jewish People, even as the Roman Empire converted to Christianity, beginning this world-wide outreach of the Gospel.

It is not that Jerusalem was to be destroyed forever, but that this destruction would end Jewish religion under the Law with the destruction of the temple. So Jewish religion as such died, replaced by an ungodly form called Rabbinic Judaism. It seeks to offer an alternative to Christian conversion for the Jewish People.

So Jerusalem was only temporarily destroyed, and its destruction was to start this process of Jewish punishment. What we see today is a return of the Jews to control over Jerusalem, signaling the soon fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham, to have a godly nation.

In any discussion about Israel and the Jew in which it is believed that they are "chosen", and that God has a special plan for them, the first and essential question which must then be asked and answered is: How does God identify them? What are the identification criteria that He uses?

1. DNA
2. Religion
3. Culture
4. Domicile
5. Somethine else

What would you say?

 

[Davy]

I understand what you are saying, and that is why I referred to Preterism in my post. But look at Matthew 24 and Mark 13 and Luke 21 again. You will see that Jesus was referring to not one stone shall be upon another. And the disciples ALSO asked about the end of the age - the end of the world. It is not ALL about the end of the world. He did refer to 70 AD as well. Go back to the discussion with the disciples and see they asked two questions, not just one.

The option to use the word "age" instead of "world" (KJV) doesn't change anything, because it's clear what time the Apostles were pointing to in Matthew 24:3 when they asked Jesus about the sign of His coming. Everyone well knows... Jesus' coming is for the very end of this world, and not back in 70 A.D. (except maybe the foolish stuck on men's Full Preterist ideas).

Furthermore, the proof of the existence of the standing huge stones at the temple mount that are still there, which made up part of the Western Wall of the 2nd temple complex, that reveals the 70 A.D. destruction did NOT fulfill Jesus' 'not one stone atop another' prophecy. Can the final Sign of the sudden destruction that's coming at the very END of this world also point to the 70 A.D. destruction? Yeah, because the 70 A.D. destruction was NOT complete, showing to look yet for another.

We have this same dual-prophetic fulfillment idea in several places in God's Word. Antiochus IV in 165 B.C. served as type in history for the final Antichrist that will complete the "abomination of desolation" prophecy in Jerusalem. Antiochus only served as a type, because Lord Jesus quoted the "abomination of desolation" revealing it for the end of this world. Antiochus IV was already dead when Jesus quoted that from the Book of Daniel.

Therefore, those 'types' of partial fulfillments still does not modify the prophecy, nor the ultimate time it is for. How can I prove that in Christ's Olivet discourse? Easy, because Jesus said the generation that sees "all these things" will not pass until "all these things" are fulfilled. He was speaking of only a specific... generation there, the LAST one, because it cannot be any other generation which sees His future coming. Thusly, that final generation is who is to see that not one stone atop another event for the very end.

 

[Davy]

This is where I believe you go wrong, Davy. You say that no AoD happened in 70 AD Jerusalem because you define the AoD based on a false correlation with the AoD of Antiochus 4.

Exactly what the "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel is not a mystery like you are trying to assume. I've heard all the 'stories' Preterism and Historicism makes up to try and supplant that event of Daniel 11:31, like the Romans holding sacrifices in the temple court, and even the Roman eagle symbol being said to be the idol. Nah, all that's ignorance and flat DENIAL of what Antiochus IV did according the Jewish historian Josephus. I've also seen those denials with staying away from covering the Daniel 11 Chapter which best describes... what the "abomination of desolation" event is.

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

Daniel 11 is easy to figure out about what the "vile person" does with establishing the "league" with a small group of Jews in Jerusalem. That Chapter even tells us that false one will be against the "holy covenant", showing that the 'old covenant' will be in effect, which also the fact that the above shows the ending of the daily sacrifice, which also reveals a standing temple, and which the idea of that desolation connected with an 'abomination' is pointing directly to an IDOL inside that temple! And those nuts want us to LOOK AWAY from the example of Antiochus Epiphanes who almost completely fulfilled that in 165 B.C.??? Yeah, right, like we should listen to those shameful Preterists!

 

[Randy Kluth]

In any discussion about Israel and the Jew in which it is believed that they are "chosen", and that God has a special plan for them, the first and essential question which must then be asked and answered is: How does God identify them? What are the identification criteria that He uses?

1. DNA
2. Religion
3. Culture
4. Domicile
5. Somethine else

What would you say?

Don't have a lot of time right now, but it's an important question. I've been asked it a lot! I'll get back with you...

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Yes, I think I do. Jesus said that Jerusalem's defeat in his generation would begin an age-long judgment for the Jewish People as a whole. That is, Rabbinic Judaism would be allowed to seduce and deceive the masses of Jewish People, while a relative few convert to Christianity.

This isn't what God ultimately wants, because He promised Abraham godly *nations,* and not just small parts of nations. He wanted healthy, Christian societies, and not just Christians enduring under pagan, oppressive systems.

But in order to allow all nations to have equal opportunity with the Jewish nation, God kept Israel in a state of suspended animation, spiritually speaking, preserving only a small remnant of faith until this process of world evangelism could be completed.

So over the whole of the Jewish nation remains a cloud of divine cursing, even as God prepares for final judgment. And that judgment will succeed in removing the ungodly leadership, and establishing the remnant of Christian believers as the model for the nation.

Therefore, Jerusalem now, at the end of this process of world evangelization, is returning to a place of final judgment and ultimate deliverance, on behalf of the remnant of Christian believers.

Israel will remain under punishment until Christ returns. But in the meantime there is still a Jewish remnant converting to the Christian faith. And the restoration of the Jewish State prepares a place for its ultimate Christianization at Christ's return.

The prophecy Jesus gave in his Olivet Discourse was only referencing the destruction of Jerusalem in that generation, which is what the Roman armies succeeded in doing. And this began the long Diaspora of the Jewish People, even as the Roman Empire converted to Christianity, beginning this world-wide outreach of the Gospel.

It is not that Jerusalem was to be destroyed forever, but that this destruction would end Jewish religion under the Law with the destruction of the temple. So Jewish religion as such died, replaced by an ungodly form called Rabbinic Judaism. It seeks to offer an alternative to Christian conversion for the Jewish People.

So Jerusalem was only temporarily destroyed, and its destruction was to start this process of Jewish punishment. What we see today is a return of the Jews to control over Jerusalem, signaling the soon fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham, to have a godly nation.

So are you saying that the city of Jerusalem was only symbolically destroyed by physically destroying the temple of their God? Daniel 9 does say "the city and the sanctuary." But Jesus seemed to only be talking about the temple.