This will be a sign for you:

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well if you would quote me right you wouldn't sound so foolish. It is the Israel of God (saved jews) I have repeatedly said it is saved Israel in view here. Paul spends the epistle contrasting the Israel of God and Israel (unsaved Jews.)

You are being foolish. This changes nothing. You are still giving significance to one's nationality in a passage that says nationality means nothing in relation to salvation. Paul is saying peace and mercy to all who follow the rule that says being a new creation in Christ is what matters rather than ethnicity or nationality, so that applies to both Jew and Gentile believers. And he calls them collectively "the Israel of God". To say that he was only referring to saved Jews completely misses the context of what he said.

Tell me, which Israel are saved Gentiles fellow citizens in with saved Jews that Gentiles were formerly excluded from citizenship in?

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ....19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

Now learn the koine greek better and learn that the servants in heaven are the angels!

There is clearly no scripture that you won't manipulate to make it fit your doctrine! This is absolutely false! It is not talking about angels, it is talking about God's people in two different ways. They are His servants and they fear Him.

then learn construction to see when a conjunction is showing two peoples versus differing qualities. This verse in English would say praise God all you angles and you that fear him (people) Remember Hebrews calls the angels Gods servants.

If it was to be understood that way, it would have been written that way. Do you really think God is that stupid?

No, but you apparently are.

I will ask but one question which I hope you will answer.

do you believe that the saved jews from the tribulation period will live and reign from Jerusalem and that the saved gentiles will populate the earth and yearly bring tribute to Israel and the Jews?

No.

Not in the least!

Okay? What is the point of that question?

So show the verse that explicitly declares there is a natural Israel of nothing but Jews and a spiritual Israel that is Jews and gentiles.

I believe Romans 9:6-8 does, but you won't accept that. And then there is this one that I quoted already above:

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ....19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

Paul said Gentiles were formerly "excluded from citizenship in Israel", but now are "fellow citizens". So, Gentiles are now fellow citizens in Israel with ethnic Jews. Which Israel is that? Are Gentile believers citizens of national Israel? No. So, which Israel are they fellow citizens of then?

I accept 100% the verses you said- but we are not the Israel of God, but the church!

The Israel of God is the church. It's also called the New Jerusalem, which is "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Rev 21:9). It's also called the body of Christ. Why does it offend you for it to be called "the Israel of God" or what others call "Spiritual Israel", keeping in mind that we're not saying spiritual Israel replaces national Israel, but rather that spiritual Israel is a separate entity from national Israel?

We are fellow citizens with teh Israel of God. but maybe you should do some research and look at what that means!

Maybe you should take off your blinders and see that in Ephesians 2:11-22 Paul indicated that Gentiles were formerly excluded from fellowship in Israel but are not fellow citizens of Israel. Not fellow citizens with Israel as you're trying to say. That doesn't fit with Paul saying they formerly were excluded from citizenship in Israel. He didn't say they were formerly excluded from being fellow citizens with Israel. Stop blatantly twisting scripture to make it fit your view. That is dishonest and not something a Christian should do. A Christian should be honest and accept what scripture teaches no matter what.

Do you know that Jewish believers are still bound to be circumcised as the token of the Abrahamic covenant which is forever?

Do you know that you're just saying things without backing them up with scripture?

Do you know that saved Jews are required to keep the Sabbath which is a sign between god and all the generations of Israel?

Do you know that you have no understanding of scripture? Scripture says being under the law of Moses is a curse that Jesus redeemed all Christians, Jew and Gentile, from (Galatians 3:10-14), but you say saved Jews are still under the law of Moses instead of under grace. You have no understanding of scripture whatsoever.

Just because the church is one body made up of Jews and Gentiles does not end all distinction

LOL. Yes, it does. As Paul said in Galatians 6:15 "Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.". But, in your mind circumcision still means a lot despite Paul saying it doesn't mean anything anymore.

Sorry but I cannot toss out grammar just because you have bought into a belief system that is not correct.

You have tossed out spiritual discernment and any care about interpreting any given scripture in such a way that doesn't contradict other scripture.

I cannot ignore all of Galatians and Romans 9-11 because you want to make Gentile believers something they are not.

This is very ironic for you to say. All of Galatians and Romans 9-11 support what I'm saying and not what you're saying. You want to keep distinctions between Jews and Gentiles even though Paul repeatedly says things like "there is neither Jew nor Gentile" (Galatians 3:28) and "there is no difference between Jew and Gentile" (Romans 10:12).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And what is the promise that makes spiritual Israel?

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ....28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The promise is to provide salvation to both Jew and Gentile through the person of Jesus Christ. You are not understanding that the promises made in OT times that seemed to be only for national Israel are applied to Gentile believers in spiritual Israel as well. You are very, very ignorant about NT scripture.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Gentile believers have been made fellow heirs of God's promises with Israelite believers. Is this something that offends you or something? It's something to praise God about, that He was gracious enough to include Gentile believers in His promises.

Well let us look at the verse and the verses you omit!

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

The children of the flesh in context are the children of Ishmael and the children of promise are of Sarah!

A text taken out of its context becomes a pretext.

You took it out of its context. It specifically mentions the natural "seed of Abraham" in verse 7, so that is the "children of the flesh" in verse 8. Notice that verse 8 starts out with "That is...". That means he was explaining what he meant in verse 7. In verse 7 he said the natural seed of Abraham are not all children and then he explained what he meant by that in verse 8 by saying "That is, the children of the flesh are not the children of God". So, he equated the natural seed of Abraham with "the children of the flesh". That is obvious to everyone who looks at those verses without doctrinal bias. So, what he was saying then is that being a natural descendant of Abraham does not make someone a child of God, but rather "the children of the promise are counted for the seed". Who are the children of promise? Paul tells us.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that the children of promise are those who belong to Christ and, therefore, that is who Paul is talking about in Romans 9:6-8 as the Israel of which not all of national Israel are part.

You are butchering the passage to make it fit your doctrine and that is plain for all to see.

 

[covenantee]

Do you know that Jewish believers are still bound to be circumcised as the token of the Abrahamic covenant which is forever?

Do you know that saved Jews are required to keep the Sabbath which is a sign between god and all the generations of Israel?

Just because the church is one body made up of Jews and Gentiles does not end all distinction

These are beyond absurd, but demonstrative of the extent to which the heresies of the racist pharisaic talmudic zionist antichrist have infiltrated, sabotaged, defiled, and corrupted the Christian Church.

They are an abomination of desecration.

God is not a racist.

No amount of effort can contort Him into one.

 

[covenantee]

The children of the flesh in context are the children of Ishmael

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

The children of Ishmael are of Israel?

And the children of Israel are made of something other than flesh? What would that be?

Thanks for the guffaws.

Nothing to do with the children of Ishmael, and everything to do with the believing and unbelieving children of Israel.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are being foolish. This changes nothing. You are still giving significance to one's nationality in a passage that says nationality means nothing in relation to salvation. Paul is saying peace and mercy to all who follow the rule that says being a new creation in Christ is what matters rather than ethnicity or nationality, so that applies to both Jew and Gentile believers. And he calls them collectively "the Israel of God". To say that he was only referring to saved Jews completely misses the context of what he said.

Tell me, which Israel are saved Gentiles fellow citizens in with saved Jews that Gentiles were formerly excluded from citizenship in?

In the church nationality does mean nothing. All are saved without distinction. But we are talking about Gods promises to israel the people.
But God has promised to save all Israel at the end of the trib.

Ez. 20, Jer. 31, Zech 13, Rom. 11, as well as other verses show God will fulfill HIs promises to Israel.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ....19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

And this does not say that Gentiles become part of Israel. We become citizens of heaven.

Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

1 Peter 2:11
Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

We are fellow citizens in the church! Israel is Israel and the church is the church.

Do you know that Jewish people who become believers, still must be circumcised according to the Abrahamic covenant which is for all generations?

Do you know that Jewish believers are still required to keep sabbath for all generations?

Maybe you should take off your blinders and see that in Ephesians 2:11-22 Paul indicated that Gentiles were formerly excluded from fellowship in Israel but are not fellow citizens of Israel. Not fellow citizens with Israel as you're trying to say. That doesn't fit with Paul saying they formerly were excluded from citizenship in Israel. He didn't say they were formerly excluded from being fellow citizens with Israel. Stop blatantly twisting scripture to make it fit your view. That is dishonest and not something a Christian should do. A Christian should be honest and accept what scripture teaches no matter what.

Show me where the church is now called Israel in the Ephesians passage. We are fellow citizens with saved Jews! But not of Ethnic or physical Israel or the land.

Do you know that you have no understanding of scripture? Scripture says being under the law of Moses is a curse that Jesus redeemed all Christians, Jew and Gentile, from (Galatians 3:10-14), but you say saved Jews are still under the law of Moses instead of under grace. You have no understanding of scripture whatsoever.

Genesis 17:12

King James Version

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
​

Exodus 31:12-17

King James Version

​

12 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

These are the only two things that serve as a sign between god and Jews. It is not abvout salvation or becomin grighteous, but a command God made for all generations of Jews. If you can sho that God specifically revoked these as signs- please show the verse.

It is not about the law but as a sign.

Circumcision was centuries before the law.

LOL. Yes, it does. As Paul said in Galatians 6:15 "Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.". But, in your mind circumcision still means a lot despite Paul saying it doesn't mean anything anymore.

Correct, but also remember Paul had Timothy circumcised in Jerusalem. It is not about the it being anything more than a sign of the covenant god requires of all Jews in all their generations. Timothy was half Jewish

You have tossed out spiritual discernment and any care about interpreting any given scripture in such a way that doesn't contradict other scripture

We are forbidden from interpreting Scripture in Peter. Spiritual discernment does not mean that we can redefine wordsa and toss out the rules of Grammar God gave man. Those are lame excuses people do when they retranslate passages to say what was not written.

This is very ironic for you to say. All of Galatians and Romans 9-11 support what I'm saying and not what you're saying. You want to keep distinctions between Jews and Gentiles even though Paul repeatedly says things like "there is neither Jew nor Gentile" (Galatians 3:28) and "there is no difference between Jew and Gentile" (Romans 10:12).

YOu need to reread them again. Not one place doesGalatians or Romans call Gentiles Israel or the Israel of God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ....28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Do you believe women lose their femaleness when they become Christians or if you are French, you are no longer French? And to be a Jew one needs to be a seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, not just Abraham. remember gods promise to Abraham in Gen. 12:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Yes we are Abrahams seed by faith in Jesus, but that doesn't magically turn a physical Gentile in to a spiritual Jew. It just means that now Jew and Gentile are one body in Christ, until the rapture when the church ends.

And we are heirs according to the promise of Gen. 12 concerning Abraham.

The promise is to provide salvation to both Jew and Gentile through the person of Jesus Christ. You are not understanding that the promises made in OT times that seemed to be only for national Israel are applied to Gentile believers in spiritual Israel as well. You are very, very ignorant about NT scripture.

Well according to allegorizers I appear ignorant. But I will gladly place my knowledge against yours any day. See you adhere to replacement theology which is an abomination.

Some promises in the old are also applied to Gentiles in the new. We in the church are partakers, not taker overs of these promises.

Romans 11

King James Version

​

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Isn't it odd that the very Paul you use to say gentiles are now spiritual Israel calls Israelites Gods people!

0 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The prophesied temporary setting aside of Israel, was to bring in Gentiles as a people for Jesus.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Wow this is odd inspiration from the man who said there is no such thing as Jew and Gentile anymore!
Gentiles as we are, are grafted in to teh vine- which is jesus. Israel are the natural branches. See verses 13-18.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


Once the full number of Gentiles come in-ALL Israel will be saved as was promised by God in Jer. 31.

See when one studies all of Scripture, we see the church as a parenthesis between gods dealing with Israel according to the promises He made to them.

Just remember at the end of the tribulation every jew left alive on earth (1/3 that entered into the trib) will be saved according to the word of God.

And if God should forget physical Israel--Just remember this promise God made:

Jer. 31

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

See just like God does not see our sin, He will save Israel and forgive them their sin. This is not a universal Jewish salvation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In the church nationality does mean nothing. All are saved without distinction. But we are talking about Gods promises to israel the people.
But God has promised to save all Israel at the end of the trib.

Paul said Gentile believers are fellowheirs of those promises. Why don't you accept that? This was a mystery in OT times, but not anymore.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ez. 20, Jer. 31, Zech 13, Rom. 11, as well as other verses show God will fulfill HIs promises to Israel.

You have the wrong Israel in mind. God doesn't keep promises to people who reject His Son.

And this does not say that Gentiles become part of Israel. We become citizens of heaven.

It says Gentile believers were formerly "excluded from citizenship in Israel" but now "are fellowcitizens". Fellowcitiens of the spiritual Israel of God. Paul clearly was saying in Ephesians 2 that Gentile believers were formerly excluded from Israel and now are not. We're not fellowcitizens of the nation of Israel, so that leaves spiritual Israel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you believe women lose their femaleness when they become Christians or if you are French, you are no longer French? And to be a Jew one needs to be a seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, not just Abraham. remember gods promise to Abraham in Gen. 12:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Yes we are Abrahams seed by faith in Jesus, but that doesn't magically turn a physical Gentile in to a spiritual Jew. It just means that now Jew and Gentile are one body in Christ, until the rapture when the church ends.

And we are heirs according to the promise of Gen. 12 concerning Abraham.

So, why do you want to believe that God's promises are for two different sets of people? Paul said the promises made to Abraham were to his seed, which is Christ (Gal 3:16) and those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:29). That means God's promises to Abraham's apply to Jesus and His church. Period.

Well according to allegorizers I appear ignorant.

According to scripture, you ARE ignorant. You have almost no understanding of NT scripture.

But I will gladly place my knowledge against yours any day.

LOL. Anyone reading our discussion can see that you try to make scripture say what you want it to say while I allow it to say whatever it says without trying to change it. And one of us recognizes what scripture so very clearly teaches, which is that there is both a national Israel and a spiritual Israel. You deny that because it doesn't fit your precious doctrine.

See you adhere to replacement theology which is an abomination.

You know, telling lies does nothing but make you out to be a liar. It certainly does nothing to support your case. I do NOT adhere to replacement theology since I don't have ANYONE being replaced. So, stop the lies. I'm not lying about what you believe, so don't lie about what I believe. Did you not say yourself above that "we are heirs according to the promise of Gen. 12 concerning Abraham.". That is what I'm saying as well. So, do you also believe in replacement theology then? It's foolish to slap that label on someone like me who doesn't try to say there is one Israel with spiritual Israel having replaced national Israel. No, I don't say that. I say that national Israel and spiritual Israel are two different entities.

Some promises in the old are also applied to Gentiles in the new. We in the church are partakers, not taker overs of these promises.

LOL. Look at you using different words than scripture uses. Scripture says we (Gentile believers) are "FELLOWCITIZENS" and "FELLOWHEIRS" with Israelite believers of God's promises. Not just "partakers". You are so dishonest.

Romans 11​

​

King James Version​

​

​

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Isn't it odd that the very Paul you use to say gentiles are now spiritual Israel calls Israelites Gods people!

0 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The prophesied temporary setting aside of Israel, was to bring in Gentiles as a people for Jesus.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Wow this is odd inspiration from the man who said there is no such thing as Jew and Gentile anymore!
Gentiles as we are, are grafted in to teh vine- which is jesus. Israel are the natural branches. See verses 13-18.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


Once the full number of Gentiles come in-ALL Israel will be saved as was promised by God in Jer. 31.

You have the wrong Israel in mind. The Israel of which all are and all will be saved is the Israel Paul talked about in Romans 9:6-8 where he described them as being "children of God" and the spiritual children of Abraham. From passages like Galatians 3:26-29 we know that the children of God and spiritual children of Abraham are believers, both Jew and Gentile.

See when one studies all of Scripture, we see the church as a parenthesis between gods dealing with Israel according to the promises He made to them.

Total nonsense. Now, you're again talking about promises He made to Israel. Did you forget already that we are fellowheirs of the promises God made to them? This was a mystery in OT times, but is not a mystery now, so there's no excuse for you not to understand this.

Just remember at the end of the tribulation every jew left alive on earth (1/3 that entered into the trib) will be saved according to the word of God.

And if God should forget physical Israel--Just remember this promise God made:

Jer. 31

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

See just like God does not see our sin, He will save Israel and forgive them their sin. This is not a universal Jewish salvation.

That describes the new covenant as indicated in Hebrews 8:6-13 where it's quoted. Is the new covenant only for Jews? My goodness, you butcher scripture so badly.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Paul said Gentile believers are fellowheirs of those promises. Why don't you accept that? This was a mystery in OT times, but not anymore.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

I believe we are fellow heirs of His PROMISE in Christ. but we are not promised a land, a temple, ruling in the Millennial kingdom and many others promises made to Israel. For the purpose of the Millennial kingdom , Israel is separate from the church.

You have the wrong Israel in mind. God doesn't keep promises to people who reject His Son.

Well according to your antisemitic replacement theology you think He doesn't, but Gods Word defintely says He does in all ages (as Paul said in Rom. 9-11) and will in the future when He saved the entire nation of Israel (which is only 1/3 that went into the tribulation), According ot Godss inspired Word, there is only one Israel- the twelve tribes of Jacob/Israel.

It says Gentile believers were formerly "excluded from citizenship in Israel" but now "are fellowcitizens". Fellowcitiens of the spiritual Israel of God. Paul clearly was saying in Ephesians 2 that Gentile believers were formerly excluded from Israel and now are not. We're not fellowcitizens of the nation of Israel, so that leaves spiritual Israel.

Wrong again. Gentiles could become proselytes and partake of the promises as a convert to Judaism.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The church has no promise of God to have an everlasting land. Our citizenship is in heaven. Just like saved jews. We are not fellowcitizens of Israel. We are both the church and not some man made "spiritual Israel".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe we are fellow heirs of His PROMISE in Christ. but we are not promised a land, a temple, ruling in the Millennial kingdom and many others promises made to Israel. For the purpose of the Millennial kingdom , Israel is separate from the church.

That's something you're making up in your imagination and is not taught in scripture anywhere. Nowhere does it says we're only fellowheirs of some of the promises. You are making scripture say whatever you want it to say.

Well according to your antisemitic replacement theology

Boy, if you lie about me one more time I'm getting you banned from here. I will not put up with your lies. I'm neither antisemitic nor do I have anyone being replaced. You have nothing to offer but lies at this point. That shows how weak your doctrine is.