They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,874
1,422
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Which is why I must ask, do you know and have you entered the Kingdom of God that is not visible because it is within you?
You may ask Jesus that question. The Lord Jesus Christ, my Savior, who knows me. The Kingdom is visible in the saints. We are not spirits floating around invisible to everyone.

Do you know Him? I hope so, but you do not have to answer the question. I leave whether your reply and the reality of your reply is yes or no in His hands, where it belongs.

The pride that you portray in the things you say about others, questioning their intellect and the questions you ask, does not equate with someone who actually knows Jesus. But it's not my place to know whether or not you actually do know Him, or rather, if you are known by Him. I hope you are - but you have a lot to learn. Pity you are so dull of hearing.
 
Last edited:

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,874
1,422
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Yes, after the second coming of Christ when the last/seventh trumpet sounds that time/delay shall be no longer. There is NO physical resurrection before an hour that is coming when the final trumpet sounds. You obviously know this, so why don't you drop the pretense of Premillennialist doctrine that teaches the physical resurrection will be followed by one thousand literal years?
You seem unable to read.

Read the text. John sees souls who had been beheaded. He says the same souls were beheaded for refusal to worship the beast. He says the same souls who had been beheaded were alive in their bodies again (zao) and John calls it the first resurrection. He says the same souls will reign with Christ a thousand years.

You truly should stop showing how you are incapable of reading.

Once you learn to read, you won't have people living in their bodies for a thousand years which in your book is two thousand years rising in the first resurrection before the resurrection at the 7th trumpet, like this ridiculous re-writing of Revelation 20:4-6 which you have engaged in an express below:
I am Amillennial and I believe what John has written. These martyred saints lived and reigned with Christ in bodies of flesh on the earth during a period of TIME, symbolized a thousand years BEFORE being martyred for their faith. Even after being physically martyred, they are ALIVE in heaven, John calling them 'souls'. The only way these martyred can be called souls without physical form is through a spiritual body, of which they are. Because they cannot be 'souls' without any LIFE at all. Since their physical bodies have perished through death, the only life they can possess is spirit life that is through the Spirit of Christ within them, and the spirit returned to God ALIVE. They will not have a physical body again until an hour coming when the last/seventh trumpet sounds and their body is resurrected immortal & incorruptible for everlasting life on the new earth, once again complete living souls.
1. Learn to read.

2. Quote the text without rewriting it.

Once you have done the above, you will be on the way to more serious scholarship.
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,904
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, He saw it. He tells Jesus, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." In this way, Nicodemus testified about the kingdom of God.

Sorry, but Nicodemus did not see the Kingdom of God, he saw the miracles that Christ performed while alive on the earth that testified or proved the Kingdom of God had come. You cannot see with physical sight that which is within you!
The following is an oft-misunderstood passage. The NASB has it correct.

Luke 17:20-21
Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.
Some folks misunderstand Jesus to say that the kingdom of God is within our souls or within our hearts, and it can't be seen. But that is not what Jesus meant. Jesus means to say that the kingdom of God consists of people, not places. The kingdom of God was in their midst because the King was in their midst, and he was enforcing the will of God while they watched, just as Nicodemus observed.

Sorry, but I don't believe the NASB has it correct at all. It makes no sense for Christ to say the Kingdom of God the Pharisees were looking for would NOT come with observation (physical sight) if the Kingdom of God were in their midst. The Kingdom of God is within you because the only way one might know and enter the Kingdom of God is through the Holy Spirit in you.

Here is a list of the more reliable translations. Notice especially the Concordant Version says "The Kingdom of God is inside of you." You can keep your Modern mistranslation; I'll stick with the more reliable translations that have outlasted them in faithfulness to the Word or God.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 17:20-21 (YLT) And having been questioned by the Pharisees, when the reign of God doth come, he answered them, and said, `The reign of God doth not come with observation; nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

Luke 17:20-21 (WEB) Being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The Kingdom of God doesn't come with observation; neither will they say, 'Look, here!' or, 'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."

Luke 17:20-21 (ASV) And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 17:20-21 (Bish) When he was demaunded of the pharisees, when the kyngdome of God shoulde come: he aunswered them, and sayde, The kyngdome of God shall not come with obseruation. Neither shall they say, lo here, or lo there: For beholde, the kyngdome of God is within you.

Luke 17:20-21 (GB)
And when hee was demaunded of the Pharises, when the kingdome of God shoulde come, he answered them, and said, The kingdome of God commeth not with obseruation. Neither shall men say, Loe here, or lo there: for behold, the kingdome of God is within you.

Luke 12:20-21 (Concordant Version)
Now, being inquired of by the Pharisees, as to when the Kingdom of God is coming, He answered them and said, "The Kingdom of God is not coming with scrutiny. Neither shall they be declaring, "Lo Here" or "Lo There"! for lo! The Kingdom of God is inside of you."

How is it that we cannot know or enter the Kingdom of God until we are born again through the Spirit in us if the Kingdom of God comes not by faith but according to physical sight?

Did Jesus contract himself when he said that the Kingdom of God was not coming with signs to be observed?

It was through the signs and miracles that were performed that prove the Kingdom of God has come with mighty power through the Holy Spirit. Christ never says the Kingdom of God inside of you can be physically observed! He says the exact opposite. It is only those of you who cling to the physical, as did the Pharisees of Old that fail to understand the Kingdom of God is within you and may be known and entered when man has been born again of the Spirit sent from Christ.
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,904
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm not preoccupied with the flesh, but you are obsessed in your gnostic Gospel of the Kingdom with a spiritual Kingdom being completely detached from anything on earth, and being completely detached from human beings who are alive in their bodies.

The Kingdom of God is absolutely detached from all that is physical upon this earth! His Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom that shall NEVER be destroyed. But everything of this earth, including the earth itself shall all be utterly destroyed by the fire that comes down from God out of heaven. You Premillers can continue to cling to the physical, putting your hope in the physical things of this earth, but you hope in vain, just as the Pharisees of Old did.
 

Stumpmaster

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2009
2,525
1,673
113
70
Hamilton, New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
The Kingdom of God is absolutely detached from all that is physical upon this earth! His Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom that shall NEVER be destroyed. But everything of this earth, including the earth itself shall all be utterly destroyed by the fire that comes down from God out of heaven. You Premillers can continue to cling to the physical, putting your hope in the physical things of this earth, but you hope in vain, just as the Pharisees of Old did.
I'm looking forward to feeding on fruit from the Tree of Life

Rev 2:7 He who has ears, let him give ear to what the Spirit says to the ekklesias. To him who overcomes I will give of the fruit of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
9,639
629
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You Premillers can continue to cling to the physical, putting your hope in the physical things of this earth, but you hope in vain, just as the Pharisees of Old did.
The Day of the Lord is not even about the church.

Why should you dictate how God decides to run things?

The Day of the Lord is about restoring earth to the pre-Adamic state. Obviously that has not happened yet on earth.

Unless you think this physical earth is going to turn into some spiritual virtual reality, the physical will continue as per Genesis 1.

Besides heaven is as physical as earth, just without sin and death. Creation is equally spiritual and physical, not at odds with each other. God cursed the earth under the bondage of sin, but that is lifted for the Day of the Lord.

Even the NHNE is still explained with current physical stuff, but the Day of the Lord will happen before the NHNE.

It is Amil who hold onto the here and now physical reality as pertaining to the Day of the Lord. They claim the last two millenia has been everlasting righteousness with the transgression of Adam totally removed.
 

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,874
1,422
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Which is why I must ask, do you know and have you entered the Kingdom of God that is not visible because it is within you?
Each person who is still alive (zao) in their dead and dying bodies but have the Holy Spirit abiding in them (Who shall also quicken their dead bodies - Romans 8:10-11) will immediately think of the question asked in Genesis 3:1 when reading your question above, because that was the first time Satan asked a question which implied that God said something that He did not say, as your question above does, and sought to trap God's people, as your question above does

- because it's obvious to all who have the Holy Spirit that if I had said "No" because your question implies that God said something He did not say, then I'm saying I have not entered the Kingdom of God, and if I had said "Yes", then I am agreeing with you that God said something He did not say.

Definitely not the type of question the Holy Spirit would inspire someone to ask.

Neither is your doctrine inspired by the Holy Spirit.

In the process you also betray another one of Satan's many lies, i.e that he was "bound and rendered unable to deceive" at Calvary. Instead, you have once again made it obvious that Satan's ongoing war of deception is a war against the Word of God, and therefore his war is with the church (the body of Christ), because the moment he succeeds in corrupting the Gospel of the Kingdom of God by succeeding in getting someone who teaches the flock of Christ (such as yourself) to teach a corrupted "Gospel of the Kingdom of God" (such as you do), he has won another battle in his ongoing war against the Word of God, and continues to win more battles every time you open your mouth teaching your corrupted "Gospel of the Kingdom".

Thankfully, Satan has already lost his war, and has already been defeated - but he will never stop trying, until the day he is destroyed.

So as I said, you may put your question to God.​
 
Last edited:

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,874
1,422
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
I'm looking forward to feeding on fruit from the Tree of Life

Rev 2:7 He who has ears, let him give ear to what the Spirit says to the ekklesias. To him who overcomes I will give of the fruit of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.
Jesus is the tree of Life. The Bread of Life which came down from heaven.

If you are not feeding on His salvation now (the fruit), you won't be feeding on His salvation then.
 

JBO

Well-Known Member
Oct 20, 2023
1,848
415
83
86
Prescott, AZ
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You seem unable to read.

Read the text. John sees souls who had been beheaded. He says the same souls were beheaded for refusal to worship the beast. He says the same souls who had been beheaded were alive in their bodies again (zao) and John calls it the first resurrection. He says the same souls will reign with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Most who read this verse fail to understand a critical distinction between the "souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God" and "those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands". There are two categories of persons who came to life. One is the martyrs beheaded because of their faith; John sees only their disembodied souls (see Rev 6:9). Thus we may conclude that they are in heaven.

The second group consists of “those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand.” This cannot be the same group as the martyrs, for contrary to what is implied in so many interpretations, there is no parallelism in the Greek phrasing translated “those who had been beheaded” and “those who had not worshiped.” The former phrase is a genitive participle and is correctly translated as modifying “souls.” The latter phrase, however, is an aorist verb preceded by the nominative plural relative pronoun, hoitines, “whoever,” which is the subject. That hoitines is nominative, not genitive, means that it does not modify “souls,” i.e., John does not say that he saw the souls of those who had not worshiped the beast.

However the latter group is connected with “I saw” at the beginning of the verse, it is a broader category than the martyrs as such, and refers simply to whoever is not on Satan’s side, whether in heaven or on earth. Second, the text says that the coming to life in verse 4 is the first resurrection, which implies that there is also a second resurrection. Verse 5 indicates that anyone not included in the two categories in verse 4, i.e., anyone who does not experience the first resurrection, will experience this second resurrection after the millennium ends: “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.” One thing should be noted: the text does not say that those who participate in the first resurrection will not participate in the second one also. It simply says that some will experience only the second resurrection. Third, those who have a part in the first resurrection will escape the second death (v. 6), which in verse 14 is equated with “the lake of fire,” i.e., hell (see 21:8). These are the only ones who are saved from eternal punishment. Thus there seems to be a redemptive power in the first resurrection that is not present in the second. Those who participate in the second resurrection but not in the first are still subject to the second death.

I will argue that these two resurrections are described by John also in his gospel in John 5. The first resurrection is given in verses 24-25 --

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Joh 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

This resurrection is the dead in trespasses and sins that come to life in regeneration, in being born again. Jesus says " an hour is come and is NOW HERE.

The second resurrection there is verses 28-29 --

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

That clearly is at the end of the age when Christ returns. There is more to be said about all of this but I will stop there for now.

Perhaps you should not criticize others for their inability to read and concentrate on your own ability.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,695
2,630
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sorry, but Nicodemus did not see the Kingdom of God, he saw the miracles that Christ performed while alive on the earth that testified or proved the Kingdom of God had come. You cannot see with physical sight that which is within you!
The New Testament draws a distinction between two related concepts: 1) the kingdom of God is near, and 2) the kingdom of God is here. While Jesus was on earth, the kingdom of God was "near." Jesus began his ministry with a simple message, "Repent for the kingdom of God is near." While Jesus' contemporaries were waiting for the kingdom of God to come (Mark 14:25, 15:41), they understood that while Jesus was among them, the kingdom of God was "near" and "at hand."

What Nicodemus saw was the nearness of the kingdom of God. That is, Jesus gave Israel signs that the King was present among them and doing the will of God. (Mark 14:36) When Jesus sent out the 70 to preach that the kingdom of God was near, he told them, " Whatever city you enter and they receive you, eat what is set before you; and heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’" We can multiply many more examples of this.

During his conversation with Nicodemus, Jesus tells him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” I don't have time to prove this right now, but the underlying question behind the gospel of John is the question of belief -- why some believe while others don't.* And John places great emphasis on eyewitness testimony. The opening line of his first letter is all about eyewitness testimony and his gospel account is focused on what people saw with their own eyes.

If this is true, then it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus was talking about eyewitnesses and why some accept what they see as real and true. Jesus credits the Holy Spirit for why some accept what they see as true while others don't. Nicodemus accepted what he saw as true because he was born again.

I think a review of the various passages concerning the kingdom of God will reveal Jesus' opinion that whenever he performed his miracles, the kingdom of God was present (near at hand.)

Speaking of casting out demons, Jesus remarked, "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." The casting out of demons, according to Jesus, was empirical evidence of the Kingdom of God. When Jesus is casting out a demon, one rightly recognizes the kingdom of God at hand.

Speaking to his disciples about allowing children to come to him he tells them, "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.” By strong implication, Jesus is using these children as an example of someone receiving the kingdom of God. Since Jesus was commending the children for receiving the kingdom of God by seeking Jesus, then we know that anyone living at that time could do the same thing.

________________________
*Count the number of times that John mentions words like "testify," "witness," "seen," "manifest," "show," and similar words.
Sorry, but I don't believe the NASB has it correct at all. It makes no sense for Christ to say the Kingdom of God the Pharisees were looking for would NOT come with observation (physical sight) if the Kingdom of God were in their midst.
I agree. But I maintain that Jesus was focused on the eyewitness, not on the events. The kingdom of God was indeed coming with signs to be observed, but the signs were of little benefit to those who refused to accept what they saw.
The Kingdom of God is within you because the only way one might know and enter the Kingdom of God is through the Holy Spirit in you.
Agreed, but that wasn't the point Jesus made to the Pharisees. Remember, Jesus healed 10 lepers in the presence of the Pharisees and yet they asked him about signs. I take notice of their question, "Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming . . ."

The Pharisees wanted to know, "What will be the circumstances attending the coming of the kingdom?" These men were worried about the Romans. They knew that if there were an uprising by the crowds to establish Jesus as King, the Romans would come and destroy what they had built and take away their position. In light of this, they sought warning signs of when this would happen. And just when it looked like this might happen, they falsely accused Jesus of mounting an insurrection, convincing Pilate that Jesus was worthy of death.

The Pharisees weren't interested to know when the kingdom of God was coming. In their view, the kingdom of God had already come and they were the head of it. Jesus told them the Kingdom of God would be taken from them and given to others. Matthew 21:43 God planted a vineyard, and he was looking for fruit. The Pharisees didn't produce fruit.

I'm not denying that the King rules in our hearts. He does. But that isn't what Jesus told the Pharisees. He wasn't telling the Pharisees that the Kingdom of God was "inside you." Maybe King Jesus ruled in some of their hearts, but we have no evidence of that from the passage. Elsewhere he tells them, "If you don't believe me, then believe the miracles that I perform."
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,904
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Each person who is still alive (zao) in their dead and dying bodies but have the Holy Spirit abiding in them (Who shall also quicken their dead bodies - Romans 8:10-11) will immediately think of the question asked in Genesis 3:1 when reading your question above, because that was the first time Satan asked a question which implied that God said something that He did not say, as your question above does, and sought to trap God's people, as your question above does

- because it's obvious to all who have the Holy Spirit that if I had said "No" because your question implies that God said something He did not say, then I'm saying I have not entered the Kingdom of God, and if I had said "Yes", then I am agreeing with you that God said something He did not say.

Definitely not the type of question the Holy Spirit would inspire someone to ask.

Neither is your doctrine inspired by the Holy Spirit.

In the process you also betray another one of Satan's many lies, i.e that he was "bound and rendered unable to deceive" at Calvary. Instead, you have once again made it obvious that Satan's ongoing war of deception is a war against the Word of God, and therefore his war is with the church (the body of Christ), because the moment he succeeds in corrupting the Gospel of the Kingdom of God by succeeding in getting someone who teaches the flock of Christ (such as yourself) to teach a corrupted "Gospel of the Kingdom of God" (such as you do), he has won another battle in his ongoing war against the Word of God, and continues to win more battles every time you open your mouth teaching your corrupted "Gospel of the Kingdom".

Thankfully, Satan has already lost his war, and has already been defeated - but he will never stop trying, until the day he is destroyed.

So as I said, you may put your question to God.​

It is a rhetorical question that each professing faith in Christ should ask and answer for themselves! Not designed to deceive!
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,904
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The New Testament draws a distinction between two related concepts: 1) the kingdom of God is near, and 2) the kingdom of God is here. While Jesus was on earth, the kingdom of God was "near." Jesus began his ministry with a simple message, "Repent for the kingdom of God is near." While Jesus' contemporaries were waiting for the kingdom of God to come (Mark 14:25, 15:41), they understood that while Jesus was among them, the kingdom of God was "near" and "at hand."

The New Testament does not draw this distinction, you make the distinction to fit what you believe. When Christ came to earth a man the Kingdom of God had come, and the same Kingdom of God is near/at hand to all who call upon His name.

The testimony through signs and miracles proclaimed by many eyewitnesses of Christ was that we might believe the Gospel of the Kingdom of God that Christ came with. The signs and miracles demonstrate visibly proof that Christ is the Son of God, Messiah/Savior man had long waited for. But how could seeing the visible signs demonstrating evidence to the power of the Spirit of Christ give anyone the ability to visibly see the Kingdom of God that is inside every man/woman that has been born again of the Spirit? They cannot prove what we say we have within us, because none are able to see inside to our heart and mind, God alone sees what is inside of mankind. That's why it's foolish to look for the physical/visible appearance of the Kingdom of God come to this earth, because Christ tells us that shall NEVER be!

The kingdom of God was indeed coming with signs to be observed, but the signs were of little benefit to those who refused to accept what they saw.

The Kingdom of God both came to mankind with Christ, and was/is near/at hand to all who call upon Him.

Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Luke 11:20 (KJV) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Acts 2:21 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, warning them to repent and believe the Gospel. He did this because the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is near/at hand to whosoever should repent and believe the Gospel. Visibly seeing the results from those professing to repent and believe the Gospel, again, does not give us the ability to see what is inside of them. Because the Kingdom of God is not now in this world a visible, physical Kingdom, and shall never be physically upon this earth. Sorry if that is offensive to those who believe when Christ comes again He will set up a literal physical Kingdom of God on this earth where He will rule and reign for one thousand years. That is a lie, and the main objection for many who have been deceived into believing the lie. There will not be one thousand more years of time given this earth after an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time/delay shall be no longer.

Mark 1:14-15 (KJV) Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

I'm not denying that the King rules in our hearts. He does. But that isn't what Jesus told the Pharisees. He wasn't telling the Pharisees that the Kingdom of God was "inside you." Maybe King Jesus ruled in some of their hearts, but we have no evidence of that from the passage. Elsewhere he tells them, "If you don't believe me, then believe the miracles that I perform."

Yes, Christ gave the same message of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God to ALL. He didn't change the Gospel of the Kingdom of God He proclaimed to make it more palatable for any man. The signs and miracles should have been enough to convince them to believe on the name of Jesus to be saved. But that would have meant they had to let go of what they had been taught, and that would mean they would no longer have authority and power to control the people, because the people too would then look to Christ as their Savior and King.

What is the reason that Premillennialists continue to cling to the false belief that Kingdom of God SHALL come physically to this earth for a period of one thousand literal years after Christ comes again? What do you fear you might lose by letting go of false doctrine and embracing truth? That is the Kingdom of God HAS come and is near NOW and has been since Christ came preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, and the only way mankind may know and enter the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God is "Ye MUST be born again"! It is NOT a visible Kingdom for the Kingdom of God is within you!
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,695
2,630
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The New Testament does not draw this distinction, you make the distinction to fit what you believe.
I respect you brother but can't we agree to keep motives out of the discussion? When I say that the New Testament draws a distinction between the kingdom HERE and the kingdom NEAR my statement is based on a review of the many places where Jesus speaks about the Kingdom. And I am not unique in my assessment that the NT seems to talk about the kingdom as a realized situation and a future situation. But I didn't ask you to take my word for it. I figured that you would take the requisite time to examine the scripture and prove it to yourself.
When Christ came to earth a man the Kingdom of God had come, and the same Kingdom of God is near/at hand to all who call upon His name.
Again, I referenced two distinct occasions for your review: 1) Jesus came preaching that the kingdom of God is "at hand", and 2) he sent the 70 to preach that the kingdom of God was "at hand." To say that the day of Judgment is "at hand" is to claim that the day of judgment is coming soon. To say that help is "at hand" is to say that help is on the way. When Jesus preached that the Kingdom of God was "at hand" he meant that it was available and close by.

The fact that we pray, "thy kingdom come" indicates that it hasn't yet been realized.

The testimony through signs and miracles proclaimed by many eyewitnesses of Christ was that we might believe the Gospel of the Kingdom of God that Christ came with. The signs and miracles demonstrate visibly proof that Christ is the Son of God, Messiah/Savior man had long waited for. But how could seeing the visible signs demonstrating evidence to the power of the Spirit of Christ give anyone the ability to visibly see the Kingdom of God that is inside every man/woman that has been born again of the Spirit?
The kingdom becomes visible in the actions of those who do the will of the Father.
They cannot prove what we say we have within us, because none are able to see inside to our heart and mind, God alone sees what is inside of mankind. That's why it's foolish to look for the physical/visible appearance of the Kingdom of God come to this earth, because Christ tells us that shall NEVER be!
I disagree that it is foolish to look for the appearance of a physical/visible appearance of the Kingdom of God because when it DOES come, the age will be filled with righteousness, goodness, and truth.

Look at it this way. How does Zoe know that I love her? She can't see into my heart and visibly see my love. But my love comes in the form of tangible action as I give expression to my love for her. I provide a comfortable and safe environment for her and our kids. I protect her from danger. I gladly help her when she asks for help and I bring the groceries up the stairs from the car. :) The love in my heart she can't see is witnessed by actions she CAN see.

The unquenchable love that Jesus had in his heart was manifest in his works, and deeds -- giving, helping, teaching, healing and sympathizing with people.

What is the reason that Premillennialists continue to cling to the false belief that Kingdom of God SHALL come physically to this earth for a period of one thousand literal years after Christ comes again?
Our belief isn't false and we have good reasons to hold that belief. And since you asked, I will give you a brief explanation of the primary reason. It pleases God to demonstrate the holiness of his name to the world. Remember the Lord's prayer -- where he says, "Hallowed be thy name . . ." This literally means, "Make your name holy." And how does God plan to make his name holy? He will literally physically and tangibly prove to the world that he is GOD almighty. To accomplish this, he will go to war against all other so-called Gods, including Allah, and defeat them visibly so that the whole world will see it. The name of Yahweh will once again be honored, respected and feared.

You can read about this in Ezekiel 36, among other places.
 

Davidpt

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2023
1,448
451
83
67
East Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Rev 20:4 and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

IOW, your interpretation denies that the following has happened to this particular group of saints, thus why John sees the souls of them as well.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

These saints---those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands---let's ask some questions concerning them. Let's call them B) for simplicity sake.

And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast.

Are B) also deceived by these miracles? No.

saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live


Regardless what this looks like when being fulfilled, does B) also think this is a great idea? No.

and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Does he also cause B) to worship the image of the beast? No.

What then is B)s' fate for refusing to worship the image of the beast?

Is it not this?

and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads

Does he also cause B) to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads? No.

How then can B) in Revelation 20:4 not be any of the souls John initially sees before he then sees them coming to life again and reigning with Christ a thousand years? IOW, a transition happens. They go from a disembodied state to a bodily state. Except Amil ignores this transition and has them remaining in a disembodied state throughout the entire thousand years.

Per Amil, something like the following.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and still in a disembodied state they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and still in a disembodied state shall reign with him a thousand years.

Vs. how Premil understands this.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast(which had the wound by a sword, and did live), neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and now no longer being in a disembodied state, thus are in a bodily state instead, they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and now no longer being in a disembodied state, thus are in a bodily state instead, shall reign with him a thousand years.


Obviously, B) can't be martyred for the reasons they are unless the beast has ascended out of the pit first, and a 2nd one out of the earth. Except Amil doesn't have the beast ascending out of the pit until after the thousand years expires. Which then makes nonsense of group B) in verse 4, the fact the beast has to ascend out of the pit first before they can be martyred for the reasons they are. Premils clearly understand that B) can't be martyred for the reasons they are unless the beast has ascended out of the pit first.

Amils do not understand this. They don't get this otherwise they would be like Premils instead, thus someone agreeing with the text here rather than disagreeing with it. Look at all the gymnastics Amil has to pull in order to make it appear their position is the correct one here. While Premil, OTOH, simply sticks to the text here. Thus no gymnastics necessary.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
7,298
1,454
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Most who read this verse fail to understand a critical distinction between the "souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God" and "those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands". There are two categories of persons who came to life. One is the martyrs beheaded because of their faith; John sees only their disembodied souls (see Rev 6:9).

You misread it. John sees one group of people who were beheaded because they all refused to worship the beast and didn't take the mark. There are not two groups mentioned there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,904
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The fact that we pray, "thy kingdom come" indicates that it hasn't yet been realized.

While I agree the Kingdom of God that Christ came with is not yet complete, which is why Christ says it is near/at hand to whosoever hears the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and believes on Christ. But when you say praying "thy Kingdom come" indicates the Kingdom of God hasn't yet been realized, it seems you are trying very hard to walk the fence. You admit Christ came with the Kingdom of God, now you say we pray "thy Kingdom come" because "it" (I assume you mean the Kingdom of God) hasn't yet been realized! Which is it? Has the Kingdom of God come and been realized through the signs and miracles Christ performed, or has it not? Just because the Kingdom of God is not yet complete does not mean it hasn't yet been realized! It has been realized (made known; happened) for all who believe. You saying it has not yet been realized is saying IMO that it is not yet actual because it has not yet physically appeared on earth. That's called straddling the fence!

The kingdom becomes visible in the actions of those who do the will of the Father.

No the actions of those professing to belong to the Kingdom of God becomes visible. Our deeds do not visibly display the Kingdom of God we profess is within us, because even those in unbelief can do good deeds, yet they are NOT displaying the Kingdom of God that in fact is NOT within them. Which is why at the Judgment they will hear Christ saying "Depart from Me, I NEVER knew you."

I disagree that it is foolish to look for the appearance of a physical/visible appearance of the Kingdom of God because when it DOES come, the age will be filled with righteousness, goodness, and truth.

It will come to the New Earth, and not for one thousand literal years, but forever, when through the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God during this age has been completed when the last Gentile to come in has been born again. The Kingdom of God will never be a physical/literal Kingdom on this earth/age/time for one thousand years.
 

Davidpt

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2023
1,448
451
83
67
East Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You misread it. John sees one group of people who were beheaded because they all refused to worship the beast and didn't take the mark. There are not two groups mentioned there.

If some of these martyrs in verse 4 are meaning the souls crying out for vengeance during the 5th seal, and that some of them are meaning their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, initially then, they can't be the same group. Granted, in the end they are all one group. Initially they aren't, that being the point. Therefore, I don't know if we are on the same page here or not?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,695
2,630
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
While I agree the Kingdom of God that Christ came with is not yet complete, which is why Christ says it is near/at hand to whosoever hears the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and believes on Christ. But when you say praying "thy Kingdom come" indicates the Kingdom of God hasn't yet been realized, it seems you are trying very hard to walk the fence.
I explained this. But perhaps I didn't do a good enough Job.

Let's go back to the Lord's prayer.

"Our Father, who art in heaven, hollowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven."

hollowed be thy name
Jesus taught us that among our primary concerns is God's desire to make his name holy once again. And you might ask, "What do you mean? God's name is already holy." Yes, of course it is. But the name of God was blasphemed among the nations. And God desires to vindicate his name among the nations.

How was God's name blasphemed among the nations? We can begin with Paul's epistle to the Romans. In the passage where Paul was critical of Jewish teachers, he says the following.

Romans 2:22-24
You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

How did the Jewish people blaspheme the name of God?
(Review Isaiah 52:5 and Ezekiel 36-20-38)

According to Isaiah, the nations said that Yahweh had no cause to allow his people to be taken into exile. Instead, foreign gods overpowered Yahweh and took his people away from him. According to Ezekiel, the Jewish people profaned the name of God because although they were Yahweh's people, they came out of their land. This entire drama was being played out in front of the nations who claimed that Yahweh was inept as a leader, a teacher, and a protector. He was such a bad god, he wouldn't keep a people for himself.

In light of that, how does God intend to restore his holy name? God answers that question in Ezekiel chapter 36, especially verses 20 through 32. In that passage God declares that he will act to restore his name. He will vindicate the holiness of his name which has been profaned among the nations. Then, he says, "The Nations will know that I am the Lord."

He will gather them back into the land. He will cleanse them from their idolatry. He will give them a new heart and put a new spirit within them. He will put His Spirit within them and they will walk in his statutes and they will be careful to obey his ordinances. They will live in the land of their forefathers.

Why is this important? To vindicate the holiness of God's name, there are several aspects that need to be present during that time. The reason why God's name was profaned among the nations is that they claimed that their gods were able to defeat Yahweh in battle. They believed that Yahweh was too weak and powerless to protect his people from their enemies.

"If God wants to prove them wrong, then He has to accomplish several goals. Firstly, He needs to bring the people back to the land. Secondly, He needs to put the law in the hearts of His people. Thirdly, He has to restore the land and rebuild the waste places. Fourthly, He needs to establish His will on earth as it is in heaven. Fifthly, He has to bring Israel's enemies against her again. And finally, He needs to defeat Israel's enemies while the rest of the nations watch. In this way, God will vindicate the holiness of His name."

As the world watches, it is important for God to uphold the sanctity of his name. This can only happen if the Gentile nations exist. Therefore, these events must occur before the next age arrives. During this age, Jesus will conquer all of God's enemies, including death. When this is done, he will present the kingdom to the Father.

"I am convinced that at the second coming of Christ, we will not enter into eternity. Instead, history will continue until God has demonstrated the holiness of his name throughout the Millennial Period. Only after a sufficient amount of time has passed to prove that God cannot be defeated, will we enter into eternity."
 

Davidpt

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2023
1,448
451
83
67
East Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I explained this. But perhaps I didn't do a good enough Job.

Let's go back to the Lord's prayer.

"Our Father, who art in heaven, hollowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven."

hollowed be thy name
Jesus taught us that among our primary concerns is God's desire to make his name holy once again. And you might ask, "What do you mean? God's name is already holy." Yes, of course it is. But the name of God was blasphemed among the nations. And God desires to vindicate his name among the nations.

How was God's name blasphemed among the nations? We can begin with Paul's epistle to the Romans. In the passage where Paul was critical of Jewish teachers, he says the following.

Romans 2:22-24
You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

How did the Jewish people blaspheme the name of God?
(Review Isaiah 52:5 and Ezekiel 36-20-38)

According to Isaiah, the nations said that Yahweh had no cause to allow his people to be taken into exile. Instead, foreign gods overpowered Yahweh and took his people away from him. According to Ezekiel, the Jewish people profaned the name of God because although they were Yahweh's people, they came out of their land. This entire drama was being played out in front of the nations who claimed that Yahweh was inept as a leader, a teacher, and a protector. He was such a bad god, he wouldn't keep a people for himself.

In light of that, how does God intend to restore his holy name? God answers that question in Ezekiel chapter 36, especially verses 20 through 32. In that passage God declares that he will act to restore his name. He will vindicate the holiness of his name which has been profaned among the nations. Then, he says, "The Nations will know that I am the Lord."

He will gather them back into the land. He will cleanse them from their idolatry. He will give them a new heart and put a new spirit within them. He will put His Spirit within them and they will walk in his statutes and they will be careful to obey his ordinances. They will live in the land of their forefathers.

Why is this important? To vindicate the holiness of God's name, there are several aspects that need to be present during that time. The reason why God's name was profaned among the nations is that they claimed that their gods were able to defeat Yahweh in battle. They believed that Yahweh was too weak and powerless to protect his people from their enemies.

"If God wants to prove them wrong, then He has to accomplish several goals. Firstly, He needs to bring the people back to the land. Secondly, He needs to put the law in the hearts of His people. Thirdly, He has to restore the land and rebuild the waste places. Fourthly, He needs to establish His will on earth as it is in heaven. Fifthly, He has to bring Israel's enemies against her again. And finally, He needs to defeat Israel's enemies while the rest of the nations watch. In this way, God will vindicate the holiness of His name."

As the world watches, it is important for God to uphold the sanctity of his name. This can only happen if the Gentile nations exist. Therefore, these events must occur before the next age arrives. During this age, Jesus will conquer all of God's enemies, including death. When this is done, he will present the kingdom to the Father.

"I am convinced that at the second coming of Christ, we will not enter into eternity. Instead, history will continue until God has demonstrated the holiness of his name throughout the Millennial Period. Only after a sufficient amount of time has passed to prove that God cannot be defeated, will we enter into eternity."

This was an excellent post, very insightful. Where I might disagree is what you said in the last paragraph---"I am convinced that at the second coming of Christ, we will not enter into eternity". How can eternity not begin for those that have put on immortality at the last trump(1 Corinthians 15:51-57)?
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,695
2,630
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This was an excellent post, very insightful. Where I might disagree is what you said in the last paragraph---"I am convinced that at the second coming of Christ, we will not enter into eternity". How can eternity not begin for those that have put on immortality at the last trump(1 Corinthians 15:51-57)?
What you said is true and I agree. I was using the term "history" to indicate this age -- what we typically call "history." I meant nothing more than to observe a significant transformation taking place in Revelation 20:11 when the world will be significantly different.