They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

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rwb

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“Only…” As if it is some mere thing… :).
when Paul says the natural man is spiritually dead in his sin/trespass, he means is saying he is in a state of spiritual alienation from God. Life is communion with God, and apart from communion with God there is no real life. One can be breathing, doing, choosing, etc., but if he is not in saving fellowship with the God who him for eternal fellowship with Himself, he is not experiencing life. So, Paul is saying, “Here is the status of all humanity apart from the grace of Christ: spiritual alienation from God ~ at enmity with Him is how it is put elsewhere ~ and that means to be dead regardless of one’s physical state… it is spiritual death. Sin is the root of this spiritual death; it is the cause of his being at enmity with and thus alienation from God, and this alienation Paul calls death. We are, if not born again of the spirit, dead. Indeed, we have to be born again in order to not remain dead in this way, in order to escape, to be freed of, this spiritual death.

I understand what you're saying and do not disagree. But the Bible never says we who were "spiritually dead"... We understand how fallen man is dead in trespasses and sins without the presence of the Holy Spirit within them. But the Bible does not call our new birth, or spiritual birth a resurrection. We read we must be "born again", not resurrected as would be necessary if the natural spirit giving man physical life was without all life. I too used to refer to being born again as being resurrected, but now knowing the confusion caused by using unbiblical terminology I stopped calling it a resurrection from the dead and speak what I read from Scripture that our spirit already alive but without the Spirit, dead in trespasses and sins, is made alive (quickened) through the Holy Spirit. That isn't a resurrection but awakening through the Spirit of Christ to things of God we could not know without the life-giving Spirit within our spirit.

Resurrection is used in two different contexts, RWB. And both, but separately, in Revelation 20. There is a spiritual resurrection, and it is individual and specific only to God’s elect ~ this is the resurrection related by Paul in Ephesians 2:6 and the resurrection “seen” by John in Revelation 20:4-6. And there is also a physical, bodily resurrection, and it is collective and general to all, but to one thing (eternal life) or the other (judgment).

This is where the confusion over resurrection stems from. The first resurrection is the physical resurrection of Christ. When we partake of Him, we share in His resurrection life. The Bible does not say we must be spiritually resurrected. It says we must be born again! It is by the new birth through His Spirit in us that we are born again, then through the Spirit in our spirit (mind, heart, will, soul) we know and enter the spiritual Kingdom of God. When we say our new birth is to be spiritually resurrected it doesn't make sense because through our natural spirit we already are alive, but without ability to know or enter the Kingdom of God which can only be entered by being born again.
Hmm, well, I say :) that since it is called the first resurrection, it very strongly implies and necessarily means that there must be… is… a second resurrection. This idea of a first and second runs throughout Scripture. In the scene we come to finally in Revelation 11, the second resurrection, the physical/bodily resurrection, is not explicitly mentioned but has has just taken place, and is very strongly implied by John when he says (a) that he “saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done” (these are God’s elect, who have been resurrected to eternal life), and (b) “the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done” (these are unbelievers, those resurrected to judgment).

I don't agree. I believe what runs throughout Scripture is man's need to be born again that when the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, we shall be physically resurrected to immortal & incorruptible everlasting life on the new earth. When the Bible speaks of the "first resurrection" it is the physical resurrection of Christ that we share in when we are born again. The only other resurrection found in Scripture is the resurrection of all who are dead in the graves.
… exhort you, RWB, to carefully read ~ carefully reread John’s words. Each of their lifetimes symbolized a thousand years? So there are a great many millenniums? Goodness gracious. Surely that’s not what you mean…

I'm not saying the lifetimes of every saint is symbolized a thousand years. John writes a thousand years to symbolize TIME. All time that began with the first advent of Christ coming to earth a man, that will not end until the seventh trumpet begins to sound. All who live and die during this symbolic time spend their whole life within this time frame.

Grace and peace to you also.
 

rwb

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In addition, any physically dead person said to be alive/ZAO means they had been resurrected. The strawman argument from Amill is predictably that ZAO does not mean resurrection, just means alive but most who study Greek already know that. The being dead first (head cut off), then seen as ZAO proves a resurrection made the dead person ZAO again.

Where do we find this Greek word zao that means alive in the verse? John writes only of SOULS of them that were martyred for their faith. John says souls because being souls without flesh is to continue to have life through their eternal spirit.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 

Zao is life

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Where do we find this Greek word zao that means alive in the verse?

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Right there where you find the word "lived". It's a translation of the word zao. You quoted it but you obviously didn't notice it. Why? John writes that he saw the souls of those who had been beheaded alive (zao) in their bodies and he calls it the first resurrection.
 

Zao is life

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You need to be more careful. The bodily resurrection is not the same as the resurrection of the physical body. We know that from 1 Corinthians 15:35-49. The resurrection body is not the physical body we now have. I would argue that the anastasis is never referring to the resurrection of the physical body from the dead. That is always "egersis". See Matthew 27:53 speaking of the bodily resurrection of Jesus from the grave. Our resurrection of the dead is speaking of a spiritual, not physical, body. That is anistasis resurrection.
There is only one resurrection in scripture and it's the resurrection of the body that died. Paul likens the physical body that dies to the seed sown which when it bursts forth into a new life, is something different, but the same. And Paul states very clearly that the physical body that was dead will be raised a spiritual body. It's a tangible body.

It is not "spirit". It's a spiritual body.
 
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rwb

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"When I first became a Christian, I thought that 'eternal life' simply meant living forever, like an endless extension of this life. However, I have come to understand that it is much more than that. Eternal life is not just a never-ending existence, but rather a life of greater quality that never ends. Therefore, if we truly comprehend the concept of 'eternal life', it becomes difficult to accept the idea that we have already received it."

The New Testament refers to the idea of "unto the age of ages" to signify a time of eternal happiness, well-being, and human flourishing. This final age will be different from all the ages that have come before it and will offer a quality of life that has never been experienced before. I have given it a name - "aionic" life, based on the Greek word for "age." Essentially, the promise of eternal life is a promise to live during that final age where human beings will flourish and finally find fulfillment.

We have yet to enter that age. According to Paul, we have been granted the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as an earnest of our inheritance, but he also points out that we are living in hope. For who hopes for what they already have?

While I agree that the faithful shall enter into the next age that shall be without death, sin or corruption/evil, so it will be a life of bliss on the new earth. But I do not agree with your understanding of what it means to possess eternal life. Because the life we have when we are born again is not only called eternal life, it is also everlasting which means it NEVER ends.

The problem for so many is this everlasting, eternal life we HAVE in Christ is spiritual and not physical life...YET. That's why Christ says the Kingdom of God is not observed, and is not now of this world because it is within you.
I wouldn't put it that way. I wholeheartedly agree with your point about the indwelling of the Spirit, but this gains us entrance into the people of God, who are waiting in the hope of experiencing the Kingdom of God, which will be realized in our future. Jesus told the Pharisees that the Kingdom of God was "within" you, meaning the kingdom of God is "among" you, given that the King is present and bringing the word of Life to his people.

Think about it, if Jesus said that the kingdom is not now, then how do you say that the kingdom of God is within us spiritually? It can't be both.

When we are in Christ through His Spirit within, the only thing we wait patiently for is our new immortal and incorruptible bodies that shall be when the last trumpet sounds that time given the Church for building the spiritual Kingdom of God shall be no longer. Christ did NOT say the Kingdom of God is not now. He said the Kingdom of God is not of this world...NOW My Kingdom is not from here. That's why He tells us not to go after those who tell us that Christ is here or there in this world. The Kingdom of God shall never be physically upon this earth. His Kingdom now is not physical, cannot be seen with physical sight, and is within us, and shall come down from God as the holy city New Jerusalem, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband, after the first heaven and earth passes away. (Rev 21:1-2)

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 17:20-23 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
When we die physically, we die spiritually also. According to Paul, at the command of the archangel, those who are dead in Christ will rise out of their graves. Then we who are alive will gather together with them to meet the Lord in the air. I can't make sense of that picture given what you said.

I can't speak for you C&Z! But I have blessed assurance through the promise of Christ that when I was born again of His Spirit, believing in Him, He gave me eternal, everlasting life that shall not end when my flesh breathes its last. I will still be a soul in heaven belonging to the spiritual body of believers there, where we will still wait for the spiritual Kingdom of God to be complete and then we will be whole again with immortal & incorruptible bodies of flesh given life through our eternal spirit that returns with Christ.

The passage confirms what I've been saying. When Christ returns the spirit of believers who have died will return with Him. Their bodies will first be resurrected from the graves, and those of faith who are still alive at His coming will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. 1Cor 15 tells us this is also when our mortal body is changed to immortal & incorruptible. Paul doesn't leave us without ability to understand, he is very clear. Paul confirms the words of Christ when He promises the life we receive when we believe in Him is eternal life that is everlasting whether in physical life or death, we who are in Christ shall NEVER die.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Where does it say that we go to heaven? I don't see that anywhere.

Paul writes when our body dies it is raised a spiritual body. Where do you think the spiritual body goes after physical death if not to heaven? Since Solomon tells us when the body of humans dies the spirit returns to God who gave it. (Ecc 12:7) You may believe the spirit within man of faith dies with our physical body, but Scripture does not agree.

You seem to dismiss the idea of a living soul.

Not at all! Scripture is clear, God created man from the dust of the earth, breathed into them the breath of life (spirit) and man became a living soul. That's why John writes of souls having life after physical death because they were faithful unto death. That's also why Paul says when our natural/physical body dies it is raised a spiritual body. (1Cor 15:44) Souls of believers after physical death are a spiritual body of believers in heaven.
Perhaps you have never read Revelation 20:4 where John indicates that a particular group of people came to life.

Here is the verse. Where John write these martyred souls came to life? He calls them souls martyred for their faith ALIVE, not coming to life, but ALIVE in heaven after physical death. To be a living soul is exactly what Paul means when he writes after death of our body we are a spiritual body in the Kingdom of God in heaven.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 

Zao is life

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I understand what you mean.

In some sense, I agree with you. But when it comes to interpretation, it matters if I understand what Jesus and the apostles said. I don't know whether I disagree with your perspective. But I don't see how our scripture references are making the point you are making. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't see the connections you are making. :)

Just to be clear, I would be happy if that were true. And my mind is still open to the possibility that I might be wrong. I think that in the long run, as you say, it matters little because, in the end, we will be with the Lord. :)

Well I'm not speaking from personal experience about what happens after we die, i.e after our bodies are dead :) But I do get from scripture that the soul continues onward as a self-aware being. Just without the body. Jesus descended into hades and preached to spirits imprisoned in hades, which is understood to be the abode of departed souls. That implies that those spirits were self-aware. It also tells me that hades exists, because it has a population. I also don't believe Jesus was using metaphor when speaking about Abraham's bosom and hades.

Paul made it very clear what He believed happens to believers after death:
"Then being always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord; or we walk by faith, not by sight; then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord. Therefore we are also laboring to be well-pleasing to Him, whether at home or away from home." (2 Corinthians 5:6-9).

I don't see how Paul could have meant anything other than what it means before trying to read something else into it. It's also not the only place he mentioned being with Christ after bodily death.

So ..

My concern right now is my fear that people are using the term "spiritual" in ways that support unbiblical ideas. When I hear the term "spiritual" from certain people, I can't help thinking of concepts like philosophical idealism, which asserts that reality is equivalent to mind and spirit. But maybe that's just my hangup. :) Happy New Year.

I fully agree with you. They have this weird separation, and it seems to be based on the idea that a spirit is a body.

Paul spoke of the resurrected body being a spiritual body. Somehow some folks seem to have read "spirit" into that too.
 

rwb

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Right there where you find the word "lived". It's a translation of the word zao. You quoted it but you obviously didn't notice it. Why? John writes that he saw the souls of those who had been beheaded alive (zao) in their bodies and he calls it the first resurrection.

The verse says they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. That means they were in life faithful unto death. John does not say they lived again in bodies of flesh.
 
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rwb

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There is only one resurrection in scripture and it's the resurrection of the body that died. Paul likens the physical body that dies to the seed sown which when it bursts forth into a new life, is something different, but the same. And Paul states very clearly that the physical body that was dead will be raised a spiritual body. It's a tangible body.

It is not "spirit". It's a spiritual body.

Yes, in heaven souls alive after physical death become a spiritual body of believers in heaven, who were during their lives a physical body of believers on earth. Because the spirit returns to God with life through the Spirit of Christ within.
 

rwb

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I fully agree with you. They have this weird separation, and it seems to be based on the idea that a spirit is a body.

Paul spoke of the resurrected body being a spiritual body. Somehow some folks seem to have read "spirit" into that too.

I don't know how others understand it, but I believe 'body' is used to define the whole in the same way believers are one body in Christ while alive on earth.
 

Zao is life

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No FOG, that's your doctrine being read into the passage. Where in this verse do we find any mention of these martyred SOULS having a body of flesh?

Why do you always twist what people say by falsely claiming they said something that they did not say? It's no wonder your handling of scripture is what it is.

The souls who had been martyred were seen by John alive in bodies that had been resurrected.

Where does the New Testament teach that the resurrected body is a body of flesh as you imply with your above question? @rwb Assuming what you mean is I claimed that they were in the same flesh-and-blood bodies that they had before they were martyred?

The rest is just nonsense because you're telling me what I assume and it's all just a load of trash, as usual:​

You ASSUME being a soul means having a body,

Quote where I said that having a soul means having a body.

The only thing I have said (repeatedly) is that the word zao, when referring to the life of humans ALWAYS refers to those humans in bodies, whether the flesh and bone bodies we now have, or the resurrected body. I've said over and over again that the word zao when referring to humans NEVER refers to humans who are dead (as in not alive in their own bodies).

I'm not talking to you about this further than this because I have grown too weary with how you twist what people say and claim they said something that they did not say in order that you do not have to acknowledge facts. It's a waste of time reading your posts because they're so full of lies used as straw man arguments and red herrings.
 
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Zao is life

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Yes, in heaven souls alive after physical death become a spiritual body of believers in heaven, who were during their lives a physical body of believers on earth. Because the spirit returns to God with life through the Spirit of Christ within.
That's not even biblical. I used to believe your doctrine was normally Bible-based. But you have invented so much of your own unbiblical doctrines that it's just not worth my while listening to you anymore (or reading anything you say).
 
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Zao is life

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The verse says they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. That means they were in life faithful unto death. John does not say they lived again in bodies of flesh.
Again, it's not talking about the bodies of flesh we now have. It's talking about resurrected bodies, and John does indeed say they are in their resurrected bodies. By use of the word zao. Then he calls it the first resurrection.
 
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JBO

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There is only one resurrection in scripture and it's the resurrection of the body that died. Paul likens the physical body that dies to the seed sown which when it bursts forth into a new life, is something different, but the same. And Paul states very clearly that the physical body that was dead will be raised a spiritual body. It's a tangible body.

It is not "spirit". It's a spiritual body.
That is absolutely not true. The seed sown does not rise again as a seed. It is completely different, not the same at all. The idea that in the resurrection we will be brought back to life as was Lazarus or Jesus or the many others spoken of in the Bible is simply not true. That is the whole point of Paul's discussion in 1 Corinthians 15.
 
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ewq1938

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Our resurrection of the dead is speaking of a spiritual, not physical, body. That is anistasis resurrection.

No, the resurrection involves a physical body. It's a new body as you have mentioned, but this is not a spiritual resurrection. It takes place at the second coming.

The second resurrection is also physical, but the same old body not a new body because the old body must die a second time with no hope of a resurrection.
 

Zao is life

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That is absolutely not true. The seed sown does not rise again as a seed. It is completely different, not the same at all. The idea that in the resurrection we will be brought back to life as was Lazarus or Jesus or the many others spoken of in the Bible is simply not true. That is the whole point of Paul's discussion in 1 Corinthians 15.

The whole point of God becoming a human being and bearing our sins on the cross and dying and rising again from death on the third day, is so that Adam's death (i.e his body dying) would be undone.

1. Adams death that is shared by all the sons of Adam, because all sinned.
2. The last Adam's (Christ's) death and resurrection that will be shared by all the sons of Adam, because of Christ's righteousness.

There will be a second death. There will be no second sacrifice for sins and no second resurrection from the second death.

That's the whole point of Paul's discussion in 1 Corinthians 15. You're taking away from scripture, and adding to scripture, and expressing a doctrine regarding the resurrection that is neither biblical, nor true.
 

grafted branch

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Well, one need only return to the crucifixion event to remind ourselves of Jesus' prayer, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit." If Jesus continued to be alive after that, then he wouldn't have need to place his spirit into the hands of the Father.

Also, if the Spirit of Jesus returned to the Father, and he was self-aware during that time, then why would he tell Mary that he had not yet ascended to the Father? Did his spirit ascend to the Father? Who can know? But according to Jesus' statement to Mary, he didn't.
It could be that Jesus commended the Holy Spirit into the Father’s hands. I think Jesus died alone so maybe this is where the Holy Spirit left Him?

I know some people think the Holy Spirit never left Jesus after He was baptized, I’m not trying to debate that, just throwing an idea out there.
 

Zao is life

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It could be that Jesus commended the Holy Spirit into the Father’s hands. I think Jesus died alone so maybe this is where the Holy Spirit left Him?

I know some people think the Holy Spirit never left Jesus after He was baptized, I’m not trying to debate that, just throwing an idea out there.
I think that we tend to forget that Jesus is both fully God, and fully man. The Psalmist wrote that God would not leave the Messiah's soul in hades, nor would His body see decay. It was repeated by Peter.

The Man, Jesus Christ, the last Adam, died and was buried, and His soul descended into hades. His Spirit is the Spirit of God, and He committed His Spirit into the Father's hands upon His death - and by the same Spirit of God He preached to the spirits imprisoned in hades, and the same Spirit quickened His body and He rose again from the dead by the power of the Spirit, by the power of the Father, and by His own power (the New Testament sometimes says by the power of the Spirit, sometimes it says by the power of the Father, and sometimes it says by His own power).

He was still fully God and fully man, even in death.
 

ewq1938

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It could be that Jesus commended the Holy Spirit into the Father’s hands. I think Jesus died alone so maybe this is where the Holy Spirit left Him?


Jesus didn't die alone and neither do we.
 

rwb

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Why do you always twist what people say by falsely claiming they said something that they did not say? It's no wonder your handling of scripture is what it is.

FOG, I am not your enemy, even though you appear to see me as such. I do not twist, nor falsely claim what is not written. You're angry because I do not give credibility to what I believe is unbiblical doctrine being read into the Bible.
The souls who had been martyred were seen by John alive in bodies that had been resurrected.

That is NOT what John has written! It is support for your doctrine being read into the text.

John very clearly says these saints were martyred for their faith before they died. They nor any other who are dead in the graves shall be bodily resurrected until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. John in vs 4 doesn't even mention the first resurrection, why? Could it be because they were not resurrected bodily but ascended to heaven with Christ a spiritual body of believers?
Where does the New Testament teach that the resurrected body is a body of flesh as you imply with your above question? @rwb Assuming what you mean is I claimed that they were in the same flesh-and-blood bodies that they had before they were martyred?

There cannot be a body of flesh alive after death in heaven, because they will not have immortal bodies resurrected from the graves until the last day. The dead body returns to dust and only the spirit returns to God. I really don't have a clue about what you mean when you say they were resurrected? You have said before that the resurrection is always bodily.