There are 2 tribulation periods, the “first” is to the Jews

[JLB]

Don't talk to me like I'm some child who just started reading the Bible. I have been studying scripture in depth for many years. I understand that is your opinion and why you see it as you do. But, when John the Baptist called Jesus "The Lamb of God" and "The Son of God" (John 1:29-34) that was a declaration of Jesus being the Messiah. So, I fully believe that is what "unto Messiah the prince" is talking about.

Can you tell me how you interpret this verse:

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

I'm not talking to you like you were a child.

I'm trying to find out what you know and understand, so we can have a fruitful discussion.

We all see in part.

I will rephrase my question -


Messiah the Prince refers to the Messianic proclamation of the people when Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem, where they cried out Hosanna to the son of David, and laid palm branches down before Him. This event is celebrated even to this day as "Palm Sunday". Hosanna is a Messianic term from psalms 118 that means "save now"! The priest's were angry with the people and asked Jesus to stop them because this was a reference to be made to YHWH.


You do believe that Jesus is YHWH; The LORD God of Israel?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not talking to you like you were a child.

I'm trying to find out what you know and understand, so we can have a fruitful discussion.

We all see in part.

I will rephrase my question -


Messiah the Prince refers to the Messianic proclamation of the people when Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem, where they cried out Hosanna to the son of David, and laid palm branches down before Him. This event is celebrated even to this day as "Palm Sunday". Hosanna is a Messianic term from psalms 118 that means "save now"! The priest's were angry with the people and asked Jesus to stop them because this was a reference to be made to YHWH.


You do believe that Jesus is YHWH; The LORD God of Israel?

A fruitful discussion involves each person addressing the other's points. So far, you are not addressing mine at all.

Yes, I believe that Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God of Israel. But, that proves nothing as it relates to this discussion.

Are the references that John the Baptist made to Jesus as "the Lamb of God" and "the Son of God" not an indication that he was saying that Jesus is the Messiah? If so, then the passage that I use to indicate when the Messiah the Prince is revealed is just as valid as yours and we need to go beyond this to determine the meaning of Daniel 9:24-27.

I'm going to ask you for the third time, can you tell me how you interpret this verse:

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Understanding this verse is the key to understanding verses 25-27, in my opinion. That's why I'm asking this question.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Tell me, does the seventh trumpet signal "the time of the dead, that they should be judged?

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever....18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Will any of the things listed here not actually happen right after the seventh trumpet sounds? I know you believe the kingdoms of the world will become the kingdoms of God the Father and His Christ at that time. Will God's wrath not come at that time? Will His servants/saints not be rewarded at that time? Will He not "destroy them which destroy the earth" at that time" Will the dead not be judged at that time? All those things will happen at that time, right? So, when are the dead judged? Before or after the thousand years?


I am not denying that. But, if you read Psalm 2:7-9 you can see what they do with the kingdoms of the world. That's what YOU are not admitting.

What does this say that He will do with the heathen and the kingdoms of this evil world?

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

He will break/destroy them! Why can't you admit that?


Your understanding of what it means to reign with a rod of iron is completely flawed. Psalm 2:7-9 and Revelation 19:15 make it clear that a rod of iron symbolically represents Christ destroying His enemies, not ruling over them as you imagine.


Is a bodily resurrection necessary in order for the second death to not have power over someone? Does the second death have any power over you and I right now? No. Does the second death have any power over the dead in Christ right now? No. What does that tell you about the timing of having part in the first resurrection? And should we just ignore the fact that scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5)? That means having part in the first resurrection has to do with having part in His resurrection.


I understand the timing of events very well. I understand that it very clearly indicates that the dead will be judged right after the seventh trumpet sounds (Rev 11:18) and that the dead are judged AFTER the thousand years (Revelation 20:11-15).


That is your assumption that it's talking about a few mortals being left on the earth, but that doesn't fit what is taught in the rest of scripture. The idea of any mortals surviving what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 is absolutely ludicrous. The few who survive will be the few who are chosen of the many who are called to salvation (Matt 22:14), and they will be changed to have immortal bodies at that time when the seventh and last trumpet sounds (1 Cor 15:50-54). They will inherit the new heavens and new earth that Peter said we are looking for (2 Peter 3:13). It should make you wonder why Peter said we are looking for that instead of an earthly kingdom in according with the second coming of Christ.


As I showed, your understanding of what it means to rule with a rod of iron is flawed. A rod of iron is used for DESTRUCTION, as Psalm 2:7-9 indicates. And, as the following indicates as well:

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

This verse associates ruling with a rod of iron with smiting the nations and treading them in the winepress and fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. You are not even trying to look at the context of what ruling with a rod of iron means. You are allowing your premillennial bias to dictate how you interpret these verses.


What is the timing of the dead being judged? Do you deny that it will occur just after the sounding of the seventh trumpet as Revelation 11:15-18 indicates? When are the dead judged in relation to the thousand years?

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at “the last day.”

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at “the last day.”

So it is clear, the dead in Christ are raised on “the last day”.

Notice the judgment of the saints is also on the last day as well….

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in “the last day.”

The Judgment of saints is shown on the last day…. Revelation 20:4 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and “judgment was given unto them:”and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Confirmed here….

Daniel 7:21-22 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and “judgment was given to the saints”of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”


When do saints posses the kingdoms of this world?

Revelation 11:15 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”


Daniel was told when he shall stand in the lot of his inheritance, and that was not until “the end.”


Daniel 12:13 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at “the end of the days.”


Notice in the above, (Daniel 7:22) Christ first comes and the judgment is given to the saints on the last day.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at “the last day.”

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at “the last day.”

So it is clear, the dead in Christ are raised on “the last day”.

Right. That will be on the day of His second coming. Did I say otherwise? No.

Now, can you answer my questions for once instead of avoiding them?

When will the dead be judged? Does it not indicate in Revelation 11:15-18 that the seventh trumpet signals that God's wrath "has come, and the time of the dead that they should be judged"? It clearly does. So, when are the dead judged in relation to the thousand years according to Revelation 20?

Notice the judgment of the saints is also on the last day as well….

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in “the last day.”

The Judgment of saints is shown on the last day….

That isn't referring to the judgment of saints. You are not reading that carefully. Saints don't reject Christ. That is talking about the judgment of unbelievers who reject Christ. We know unbelievers will be judged on the day of His second coming at the end of the age as indicated in passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46.

Revelation 20:4 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and “judgment was given unto them:”and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

This verse has no relation to John 12:48 whatsoever. Did you even actually read John 12:48? This is mind boggling that you would try to directly relate that verse to this one. Instead, John 12:48, which refers to those who reject Christ and His words, should be related to this:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Confirmed here….

Daniel 7:21-22 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and “judgment was given to the saints”of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”

Judgment given to the saints should be understood in this context:

1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

When do saints posses the kingdoms of this world?

Revelation 11:15 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

You are not differentiating between the spiritual kingdom of God as it exists now and as it will exist in the future. Do you deny its current existence? It came without observation (Luke 17:20), is not of this world (John 18:36) and "is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Romans 14:17).

Daniel 7:17-28 contains an explanation of the vision that Daniel saw, as described in Daniel 7:2-14.

Here is where it describes Jesus being given authority over His kingdom:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

That is a description of His ascension because it talks about Him being brought to the Ancient of days, which represents God the Father who is in heaven. That Daniel 7:13-14 is a reference to His ascension can easily be seen by comparing it to Paul's account of His resurrection and ascension here:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

So, the context of the kingdom referenced in Daniel 7 is established here. It is the kingdom Christ was given upon His resurrection and ascension. So, the saints being given the kingdom and dominion must be understood in this context. Revelation 1:5-6 says that Christ's followers have been MADE priests in His kingdom. It's a present reality. Yes, we will inherit the kingdom in its fullness in the future, but that doesn't mean we aren't in it spiritually now and that is what Daniel 7 is talking about. It should not be directly related to Revelation 11:15 which is talking about the time when the kingdom will be inherited in its fullness. Apparently, the already, but not yet nature of the kingdom of God is not a concept you are familiar with for some reason.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Right. That will be on the day of His second coming. Did I say otherwise? No.

Now, can you answer my questions for once instead of avoiding them?

When will the dead be judged? Does it not indicate in Revelation 11:15-18 that the seventh trumpet signals that God's wrath "has come, and the time of the dead that they should be judged"? It clearly does. So, when are the dead judged in relation to the thousand years according to Revelation 20?


That isn't referring to the judgment of saints. You are not reading that carefully. Saints don't reject Christ. That is talking about the judgment of unbelievers who reject Christ. We know unbelievers will be judged on the day of His second coming at the end of the age as indicated in passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46.


This verse has no relation to John 12:48 whatsoever. Did you even actually read John 12:48? This is mind boggling that you would try to directly relate that verse to this one. Instead, John 12:48, which refers to those who reject Christ and His words, should be related to this:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Judgment given to the saints should be understood in this context:

1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.


You are not differentiating between the spiritual kingdom of God as it exists now and as it will exist in the future. Do you deny its current existence? It came without observation (Luke 17:20), is not of this world (John 18:36) and "is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Romans 14:17).

Daniel 7:17-28 contains an explanation of the vision that Daniel saw, as described in Daniel 7:2-14.

Here is where it describes Jesus being given authority over His kingdom:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

That is a description of His ascension because it talks about Him being brought to the Ancient of days, which represents God the Father who is in heaven. That Daniel 7:13-14 is a reference to His ascension can easily be seen by comparing it to Paul's account of His resurrection and ascension here:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

So, the context of the kingdom referenced in Daniel 7 is established here. It is the kingdom Christ was given upon His resurrection and ascension. So, the saints being given the kingdom and dominion must be understood in this context. Revelation 1:5-6 says that Christ's followers have been MADE priests in His kingdom. It's a present reality. Yes, we will inherit the kingdom in its fullness in the future, but that doesn't mean we aren't in it spiritually now and that is what Daniel 7 is talking about. It should not be directly related to Revelation 11:15 which is talking about the time when the kingdom will be inherited in its fullness. Apparently, the already, but not yet nature of the kingdom of God is not a concept you are familiar with for some reason.

Well like they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well like they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

Like I say, you are afraid to address my points, so you don't even try to do so. I can only assume it's because you know you can't, but you want to cling to the false premillennialist doctrine at all costs. It's quite noticeable that you don't even attempt to answer my questions. I wonder why (not really).

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Like I say, you are afraid to address my points, so you don't even try to do so. I can only assume it's because you know you can't, but you want to cling to the false premillennialist doctrine at all costs. It's quite noticeable that you don't even attempt to answer my questions. I wonder why (not really).

You have hardened your heart from hearing the Truth, no amount of scripture will convince you otherwise. Bye!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have hardened your heart from hearing the Truth, no amount of scripture will convince you otherwise. Bye!

LOL. Nice try. If your premillennialist belief was true then you would have no problem addressing the points and answering the questions I asked in post #144. But, you didn't even attempt to do so. That says it all.

You think that the following verse is about the judgment of saints. Nothing reveals your doctrinal bias more than an interpretation like that.

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

You are too prideful to admit that this verse has absolutely nothing to do with the judgment of saints, but rather has to do with the judgment of those who reject Christ and don't accept His words. I've rarely seen a more biased interpretation of a verse ever before.

 

[rwb]

The last trump marks the end of the reign of the kings of the earth, not the end of time. When the first world was destroyed by water in the days of Noah it was not the end of time, but the end of that world.

2 Peter 3:5-6​

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King James Version​

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5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

At the last trump (yet future) the kingdoms of this world will BECOME the Kingdoms of God and of His Christ, not before.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

You gave an unproven opinion saying, "The last trump marks the end of the reign of the kings of the earth, not the end of time". I'm not inclined to believe one's opinions without verification from the Word of God.

The world that was in the days of the flood that perished did not include the heavens passing away, and the elements melting with fervent heat. Neither was the earth also and the works therein destined to be burned up and dissolved. The way the world perished through the waters of the flood was for every living creature living in the world. We know the world that perished then cannot be compared to the destruction that shall come by fire when the last trumpet sounds and the Lord comes again, because God preserved everything left alive within the Ark. There won't be an Ark to save some people from the fire that shall come after the last trumpet sounds. After the destruction by fire all things shall be made new and there will be a new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness!!!

Genesis 6:7-8 (KJV) And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 6:13 (KJV) And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

2 Peter 3:10-13 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

There won't be any having the breath of life left alive upon the earth when the last trumpet sounds that Christ has come again, and the fire of God's wrath is sent down upon this earth that all things might be made new again. You cannot use the flood of Noah's day to prove there will be another one thousand years given this earth after Christ comes the Second time.

Genesis 7:21-23 (KJV) And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

John is NOT telling us the end of ALL time ends when the seventh trumpet begins to sound. The time that shall end is followed by Satan's "little season" of time, but not one thousand more years of time. However, he very clearly writes "there shall be time no longer" in the days when the seventh angel begins to sound the last trumpet. John gives us more information so that we might know what time should be no longer when the seventh trumpet begins to sound. He adds "the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." What is the mystery of God that should be finished when the seventh trumpet begins to sound? It's the mystery that had been hidden in times past that is now made known through the Gospel proclaimed, that Gentiles too shall be saved, and the Kingdom of God would be made complete through Gentiles saints of faith and Jews of faith together. IOW the hidden mystery, now known is the Kingdom of God shall be filled with peoples of faith from all the nations of the world.

Romans 16:25-26 (KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Ephesians 3:3-9 (KJV) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:25-27 (KJV) Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Romans 11:25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Kingdom of God is expanding as the Gospel is taken unto all the nations of the earth. This is the time that John symbolizes a thousand years that shall be no longer because when the last trumpet sounds the Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit will have completed the Kingdom of God. The only time left for this world after the last trumpet sounds is for Satan to have his little season that will come to an end when the saints (both dead & living) will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and the fire of God's wrath will come down out of heaven to burn up all who still have the breath of life.

 

[rwb]

Why is it you “Amils” cannot understand my speech? I am not talking about Christ reigning in His individual saints, but the time WHEN Christs Kingdom shall reign on the Earth.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

At the last trump (yet future) the kingdoms of this world will BECOME the Kingdoms of God and of His Christ, not before.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

If you want us to understand your speech, prove what you allege through the Scriptures! What verses prove that Christ will come to reign on THIS earth? When the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God it will be when all things have been made new. Why would Christ return to physically reign over the kingdoms of this world since ALL the kingdoms of this world shall pass away? How can Christ reign on this earth forever and ever since this earth and everything of it shall be burned up?

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you want us to understand your speech, prove what you allege through the Scriptures! What verses prove that Christ will come to reign on THIS earth? When the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God it will be when all things have been made new. Why would Christ return to physically reign over the kingdoms of this world since ALL the kingdoms of this world shall pass away? How can Christ reign on this earth forever and ever since this earth and everything of it shall be burned up?

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Premils try to say that He will come to rule over over the kingdoms of the world with a rod of iron. Is that what the following passages are describing? It sure doesn't look like it!

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You think that the following verse is about the judgment of saints. Nothing reveals your doctrinal bias more than an interpretation like that.

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

You are too prideful to admit that this verse has absolutely nothing to do with the judgment of saints, but rather has to do with the judgment of those who reject Christ and don't accept His words. I've rarely seen a more biased interpretation of a verse ever before.

You are rejecting His words. Those who do so shall be removed from HIS KINGDOM!

Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

How can they be removed from His Kingdom if they were never a part of His Kingdom?

 

[rwb]

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at “the last day.”

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at “the last day.”

So it is clear, the dead in Christ are raised on “the last day”.

You are selectively using verses that show only the dead in Christ being raised on the last day. How do you reconcile the last day with the hour that is coming? John tells us when the dead, both those who have done good and those who have done evil are raised together. Do you deny the hour coming when all who are in the graves shall come forth is the last day?

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Notice the judgment of the saints is also on the last day as well….

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in “the last day.”

This verse is NOT judgment of the saints as you assume. The one judged in the last day is he that rejects Christ and does not receive His words.

The Judgment of saints is shown on the last day…. Revelation 20:4 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and “judgment was given unto them:”and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

You're not carefully reading the verse. It does not say "judgment OF saints" on the last day. John writes "judgment was given unto them." How were these martyred souls given judgment? Judgment that btw caused them to be martyred for the witness of Jesus, and the Word of God. Is it not through the proclamation of Jesus and the Word of God they professed in their lifetimes when they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years that made them judges against those who refuse to believe? Is this NOT how judgment is given to the saints of God?

John 12:31 (KJV) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 7:24 (KJV) Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Romans 2:16 (KJV) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

1 Corinthians 6:2 (KJV) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

When do saints posses the kingdoms of this world?

Revelation 11:15 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”


Daniel was told when he shall stand in the lot of his inheritance, and that was not until “the end.”


Daniel 12:13 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at “the end of the days.”


Notice in the above, (Daniel 7:22) Christ first comes and the judgment is given to the saints on the last day.

Daniel 12:13 refers to the end of days when Daniel and all the saints with Him shall be bodily resurrected immortal and incorruptible to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

Dan 7:22 is not depicting Christ coming again. Verse 13 is a vision of Christ ascending to heaven after His resurrection. Ancient of days depicts not only the Father in heaven, but also Christ in in heaven. John 10:30 (KJV) I and my Father are one.

Daniel 7:9 (KJV) I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Daniel 7:13 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Acts 1:2 (KJV) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Dan 7:22 to the end of the chapter the Ancient of days is Christ Jesus our Lord. Through the judgment of Christ the saints of the most High possessed the Kingdom. These are not all the saints, but the saints of Old who possessed the Kingdom of God in heaven as "living souls" after the cross, resurrection with the ascension of Christ to heaven. It is after this that Daniel is told about the fourth beast kingdom upon the earth that shall not be like any of the others. He (Satan) shall devour the whole earth, being diverse from all kingdoms. This vision tells what shall be as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth. The faithful Church (saints) will suffer "great tribulation" that has never before been, and shall never be again. But the Kingdom of God shall stand, because it is an everlasting Kingdom and though the forces that be through the power of Satan are strong, the saints of the most High shall receive an everlasting Kingdom that shall never end. And the kingdoms of this world that now belong to Satan shall be taken away and given to Christ and His saints. For their inheritance shall be the whole new earth made new again.

Daniel 7:22-28 (KJV) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You are selectively using verses that show only the dead in Christ being raised on the last day. How do you reconcile the last day with the hour that is coming? John tells us when the dead, both those who have done good and those who have done evil are raised together. Do you deny the hour coming when all who are in the graves shall come forth is the last day?

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



This verse is NOT judgment of the saints as you assume. The one judged in the last day is he that rejects Christ and does not receive His words.



You're not carefully reading the verse. It does not say "judgment OF saints" on the last day. John writes "judgment was given unto them." How were these martyred souls given judgment? Judgment that btw caused them to be martyred for the witness of Jesus, and the Word of God. Is it not through the proclamation of Jesus and the Word of God they professed in their lifetimes when they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years that made them judges against those who refuse to believe? Is this NOT how judgment is given to the saints of God?

John 12:31 (KJV) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 7:24 (KJV) Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Romans 2:16 (KJV) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

1 Corinthians 6:2 (KJV) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?



Daniel 12:13 refers to the end of days when Daniel and all the saints with Him shall be bodily resurrected immortal and incorruptible to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

Dan 7:22 is not depicting Christ coming again. Verse 13 is a vision of Christ ascending to heaven after His resurrection. Ancient of days depicts not only the Father in heaven, but also Christ in in heaven. John 10:30 (KJV) I and my Father are one.

Daniel 7:9 (KJV) I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Daniel 7:13 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Acts 1:2 (KJV) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Dan 7:22 to the end of the chapter the Ancient of days is Christ Jesus our Lord. Through the judgment of Christ the saints of the most High possessed the Kingdom. These are not all the saints, but the saints of Old who possessed the Kingdom of God in heaven as "living souls" after the cross, resurrection with the ascension of Christ to heaven. It is after this that Daniel is told about the fourth beast kingdom upon the earth that shall not be like any of the others. He (Satan) shall devour the whole earth, being diverse from all kingdoms. This vision tells what shall be as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth. The faithful Church (saints) will suffer "great tribulation" that has never before been, and shall never be again. But the Kingdom of God shall stand, because it is an everlasting Kingdom and though the forces that be through the power of Satan are strong, the saints of the most High shall receive an everlasting Kingdom that shall never end. And the kingdoms of this world that now belong to Satan shall be taken away and given to Christ and His saints. For their inheritance shall be the whole new earth made new again.

Daniel 7:22-28 (KJV) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

[Earburner]

Let's continue by gleaning our understanding from Daniel's word.

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26


At this point we see that the first 69 weeks were fulfilled at "Messiah the Prince", which occurred on what has come to be known as "Palm Sunday".

After that, Jesus was "cut off" but not for Himself.
We all know Jesus died for the sins of the world.

Also, in verse 26 is another time marker which is -

And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

This occurred in 70 AD.

So now we have two time markers in verse 26, Messiah "cut off" (33 AD) and the city and sanctuary destroyed, (70 AD),
but the 70th week has not yet begun, which we see occurs in verse 27.


Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:27


Do you understand who the "he" is in verse 27?

Yes! It is Jesus!!
By His Sacrificial shed blood, He caused the temple sacrifices of animals to come to an immediate end in the mind of the Godhead.
Not only are all sins forgiven, but now they are removed from all who are born again by the Holy Spirit (John 3:18). Animal blood could ONLY forgive sin, and that was on a repetitive annual basis. If a person did not show up with a sacrifice for their sins, their sins were upon them until the following year of the sacrifice of Passover.

 

[rwb]

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Again, you appear to be using verses selectively out of context!

Read the verse in context! It speaks of how those professing to be saints of Christ shall come under fiery trials that shall judge them in life. We are to consider the suffering in this life as being partakers of Christ's sufferings. And to consider it an honor to be reproached for the name of Christ, to suffer with Christ because we have partaken of His resurrection life (the first resurrection) and therefore we have overcome the second death (LOF). All who claim the name of Christ will suffer judgment in this world.

1 Peter 4:12-18 (KJV) Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Are we who profess the name of Christ through the world any less ordained to suffer judgment from the world than the Apostle Paul? Christ warns that we who faithfully proclaim the name of the Lord shall suffer judgment from the world. That is how judgment begins first for the household of God. It is through trials and judgments that our faith might be tried and cleansed through the fiery trial.

Acts 9:16 (KJV) For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

1 Peter 1:7 (KJV) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Romans 5:3-5 (KJV) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Again, you appear to being using verses selectively out of context!

Read the verse in context! It speaks of how those professing to be saints of Christ shall come under fiery trials that shall judge them in life. We are to consider the suffering in this life as being partakers of Christ's sufferings. And to consider it an honor to be reproached for the name of Christ, to suffer with Christ because we have partaken of His resurrection life (the first resurrection) and therefore we have overcome the second death (LOF). All who claim the name of Christ will suffer judgment in this world.

1 Peter 4:12-18 (KJV) Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Are we who profess the name of Christ through the world any less ordained to suffer judgment from the world than the Apostle Paul? Christ warns that we who faithfully proclaim the name of the Lord shall suffer judgment from the world. That is how judgment begins first for the household of God. It is through trials and judgments that our faith might be tried and cleansed through the fiery trial.

Acts 9:16 (KJV) For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

1 Peter 1:7 (KJV) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Romans 5:3-5 (KJV) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

You “Amils” always have an excuse not to believe what is contrary to your false doctrine.

 

[rwb]

You “Amils” always have an excuse not to believe what is contrary to your false doctrine.

You speak against doctrine you have no understanding of! You've been shown the error of your doctrine cannot withstand scrutiny from the Word of God. Yet you continue to cling to that which has been proven to be biblical error??? I'm always surprised when premillennialists continue to spew out false doctrines even after being biblically proven to be false??? Very sad!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are rejecting His words. Those who do so shall be removed from HIS KINGDOM!

No, I am not. People who reject His words are not saints, yet you are calling them saints. That makes no sense.

Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

How can they be removed from His Kingdom if they were never a part of His Kingdom?

This requires an in depth look at that parable in order to understand what Jesus was saying there. It also requires taking other scripture into consideration.

Not long before He told that parable Jesus said "He who is not with me is against me" (Matt 12:30). So, the parable of the wheat and tares is about those who are with Jesus (saved people, saints) and those who are against Him (the lost, unsaved people).

Did you read the whole parable? The parable itself does not support premillennialism, but rather supports amillennialism and I will explain why.

Jesus contrasted those who are part of the kingdom of God (the wheat or good seed) with those who are part of the kingdom of the wicked one (the tares). When He talked about gathering the ones out of His kingdom that offend He was not referring to anyone being gathered out the kingdom of God that He reigned over, but to the world in general. Remember, this is something that happens at the end of the age which is when Jesus will return. At that point the kingdom (or kingdoms) of the world will become the kingdom of God the Father and His Son (Revelation 11:15).

So, the world will be His at that point and He is speaking in that sense in Matthew 13:41 and not talking about people being taken out of the kingdom of God that He reigns over. No, only saved people are in the kingdom of God. You are saying that it's the judgment of saints and calling those who reject His words saints. No, those who reject His words are not saints. He is not talking about saints being gathered out of His kingdom because saints are those who belong to Him.

Let's look at how Jesus explained what the parable means.

Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So, Jesus said the field is the world and the world belongs to Him. The parable itself starts out by Jesus saying "The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field" (Matt 13:24). See, how He called it "his field"? And He said "the field is the world". So, He was referring to the world as being His. So, when it talks about gathering out of "His kingdom" everything that offends and does iniquity, it's talking about His world represented by the field in the parable.

Notice that the good seed (wheat) represent "children of the kingdom". Don't confuse that with the kingdom of the world that belongs to Christ ("his field"). That is only referring to the kingdom of God that only believers are part of. And the children of the kingdom are contrasted with "the children of the wicked one" who are represented by the tares in the parable. The tares represent all of the wicked. All unsaved people since all unsaved people are children of the devil. Again, as Jesus said, "He who is not with me is against me". So, Jesus divided up all people into two groups. Those who are with Him and those who are against Him. That is represented in this parable.

So, what happens to the tares, who represent the children of the wicked one, which are those who are against Jesus? They are cast "into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth". That is a reference to the final destination for unbelievers. It's called the lake of fire in Revelation 20:15. Surely, Matthew 13:42 and Revelation 20:15 are speaking of the same thing since scripture does not teach that unbelievers will be cast into the fire on more than one occasion. Revelation 20:15 is clear that all whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the fire at the same time.

Then notice what it says in Matthew 13:43. The good seed or wheat are referred to as "the righteous" and it says at that point they will "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father". So, Jesus will have delivered the kingdom to the Father at that point, as Paul said would happen at "the end" when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:22-24) since it refers to the kingdom as "the kingdom of their Father" at that point. That is talking about eternity being ushered in at that point because we know that when "the end" comes the last enemy, death, is destroyed (1 Cor 15:24-26). So, Jesus taught that eternity will be ushered in at the end of the age, which is when He will return (Matt 24:3). The parable supports amillennialism. The time when the lost are cast into the fire is after the thousand years as Revelation 20:11-15 indicates.

Here is a similar parable to the parable of the wheat and tares. Can you tell me how you interpret this:

Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Who do you think the good fish (or good sea creatures) represent in this parable? Who do you think the bad fish (or bad sea creatures) represent? Jesus referred to the good as "the just" and the bad as "the wicked". So, who do you think "the just" represent and who do you think "the wicked" represent in this parable?

I'd also like to know how you interpret Matthew 25:31-46. Who are the sheep and who are the goats?

For me, it's easy to discern what Matthew 13:24-30;36-43; Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 are about. They are about what will happen when Jesus comes with His angels at the end of the age and all refer to the day of judgment that Jesus often talked about. All we have to do to determine who the people are being referenced in those passages is to remember what Jesus said in Matthew 12:30 which is "He who is not with me is against me". Those are are with Him are represented by the good seed/wheat, the good fish, and the sheep while those who are against Him are represented by the tares, the bad fish and the goats who are all cast into the fire just like those whose names are not written in the book of life (Rev 20:15) and that happens AFTER the thousand years, not before.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You “Amils” always have an excuse not to believe what is contrary to your false doctrine.

You only recently found out what Amil is, so it makes no sense for you to immediately dismiss it as you have done. Please try to not act on emotion and reason with us here. It won't kill you. Many people have been amillennialists for a long time just as many have been premillennialists. The early church father Justin Martyr indicated that was the case when he said many believe as he did (he was talking about premillennialism), but many true Christians believed otherwise as well. It's not as if we're trying to introduce some new doctrine here.

If you consider what we're saying and still disagree, so be it. That's fine. But, I'm just asking you to at least consider what we're saying which I don't get the sense that you have done up to this point. So, please consider what I just posted in post #159 and let me know your thoughts. Let's try to be more respectful here. We all believe that Jesus will return at the end of the age, but disagree on what will happen at that point. Let's all calm down and respectfully discuss what scripture says will happen at that point.