Earburner
Well-Known Member
Thanks, l read your understanding about the feet of a bear. I also perceive that "the feet of a bear" is that of the Medio-Persian empire, the 2nd beast, whose people are still with us today, being the country of Iran.
There are 2 tribulation periods, the “first” is to the Jews
- Thread starter Stewardofthemystery
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
Time according to men for BC and AD is divided at the point of Jesus' death.
Therefore, in the moments just before His death, it was the time of the end of the year 1.0 BC.
In the moments soon after His death, it was the beginning of year 1.0 AD.
So then, in the "midst" of a prophetic week there is 3.5 yrs. + 3.5 yrs.= 7.0 years.
Jesus confirmed the (New) covenant with many for ONE prophetic week of 7.0 years.
Beginning with Jesus' baptism, in the year of 3.5 BC., for 3.5 years both John and Jesus confirmed the (New) covenant with the disciples in the flesh**, and then for the remaining 3.5 years, after Jesus' death and resurrection, by His Spirit, He continued confirming the (New) covenant towards the "Early Church", of which He completed in the year of 3.5 AD.
**Note: many are not aware that the ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus in the flesh, was a Joint Ministry, according to Zech. 4:14.
John's ministry was for 6 mos. and Jesus' ministry was for 3.0 years, which is a total of 3.5 years to Jesus' death and resurrection.
Therefore, the above math for 3.5 years of Jesus' ministry in the flesh, is actually the combination of their two ministries, being 6 mos. for John + 3 years for Jesus= 3.5 years. Both were "anointed" by the Holy Spirit of God (Zech.4:14). John, upon his physical birth (Luke 1:15), and Jesus, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God.
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As we see, the scripture plainly say AFTER the 69th week…
“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26
Two distinct occur after the 69 weeks.
Messiah cut off. - 33 AD
and
The city and sanctuary are destroyed - 70 AD
Yet the 70th week has not yet begun.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:27
What begins the 70th final week is the prince who is to come confirms a covenant with many for 1 week; a 7 year period.
The prince who is to come.
“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:26-27
”he” being the last one mentioned in the prophecy.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
The Roman Titus confirmed no covenant with God, or anyone else.
According to your Bible reference, it is speaking of two separate people:
"He [Jesus] shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one [Titus[ who makes desolate,...:
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It has nothing to do with Titus.
Again two significant time markers are presented in verse 26.
And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26
Two distinct occur after the 69 weeks.
Messiah cut off. - 33 AD
and
The city and sanctuary are destroyed - 70 AD
Yet the 70th week has not yet begun.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
The 70th week was completely fulfilled by the joint ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus, aka the "two witnesses".
Many are not grasping the confusing nature of Daniel 9:24-27, and the very reason of why there is an extreme misunderstanding about Messiah being "cut off after 62 weeks, but not for himself".
Being a specific prophesy, of exactly when the Messiah Jesus was going to come, God the Father spoke the truth of it, but purposely shrouded it in the secrecy of symbolic time and misconstrued words, so that "the princes of this world" would not know when exactly He was to appear.
Rom. 16
[25] Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1 Cor. 2
[7] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
[8] Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
How do you figure? For Jesus to be crucified after the 69th week places His death within the 70th week. There is no basis whatsoever for inserting a large gap between the 69th and 70th weeks.
Daniel 9:27 is about Jesus confirming the eternal new covenant by way of His ministry, death, resurrection and the gospel being preached in Israel over a period of 7 years. There is no 7 year covenant.
Is it your view that Christ's death is not necessary to fulfill any of the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 that had to be fulfilled within the 70 weeks? Please explain your understanding of the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24. For example, how can reconciliation for iniquity be made apart from the blood of Christ?
Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The prince who was to come was Messiah the prince. But, even if he wasn't, the last individual in focus before verse 27 is the Messiah and not "the prince who is to come". Verse 26 focuses specifically on the people of the prince who is to come being the ones who would destroy the city and the sanctuary and not the prince to come himself. So, that makes the antecedent of the "he" in verse 27 the reference to the Messiah in verse 26.
Using the logic you're using to interpret Daniel 9:27 we would conclude that "him, whose coming is after the working of Satan" was referring to Jesus instead of "that wicked" in the following passage:
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Clearly, "him, whose coming is after the working of Satan is not referring to the Lord, but rather "that Wicked" despite the Lord being the last individual referenced before the reference to "him, whose coming is after the working of Satan". Clearly, your man-made rule that says the last individual referenced has to be the one verse 27 refers to is not reliable.
Daniel 9:24 declares "Seventy weeks are determined...".
But if the 70th week has not yet begun, then 70 weeks are not determined. Only 69 are determined.
That 70th week is decapitated and undetermined.
Nor can it be called the 70th, because 70 follows 69.
The historical true Christian Church is unanimous in declaring that Daniel 9:24 was fulfilled perfectly and completely by Christ at Calvary.
In the middle of the undecapitated determined 70th week.
Verse 26 deals with things that take place after the first 69 weeks.
And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26
The two things that are mentioned in verse 26 are:
- Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
- the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
Messiah cut off - 33 AD
City and Sanctuary destroyed - 70 AD
As of this point in the prophecy, the 70th week has not begun.
The people of the prince who is to come refer to the Romans.
The prince who is to come is therefore from the region of Rome.
Jesus is not the prince who is to come.
Jesus is Messiah the Prince.
The prince who is to come refers to someone in the future who will confirm a covenant with many for 1 week (7 Years); this will be when the 70th week begins.
The three time frames mentioned in the prophecy are:
Seven weeks
Sixty two weeks
One week.
A total of 70 weeks.
Nothing in the prophecy indicates these are 70 consecutive weeks.
By the time frame structure we see three distinct time frames so this tells us the 70 weeks are not 70 consecutive weeks.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yes, it has. The six things listed in Daniel 9:24 had to be fulfilled within the 70 weeks. Agree? Tell me how those things can possibly be fulfilled apart from the death of Christ? For example, how can reconciliation for iniquity be made apart from the blood of Christ? It's impossible. Yet, you don't even have His death falling anywhere within the 70 weeks. Please address this.
Whether He is or not doesn't change the fact that the antecedent for the "he" in verse 27 is the Messiah. The last person to be in focus in verse 26 is the Messiah. It is THE PEOPLE of the prince who is to come that are in focus after that and NOT the prince who is to come. I showed what kind of conclusion you can draw by using the kind of logic you are using in Daniel 9:26-27. Using that same logic would result in thinking "him, whose coming is after the working of Satan" is referring to the Lord in 2 Thess 2:8-9! Think about that.
Yes, I personally believe He is the only prince mentioned there in the prophecy, but that is really beside the point I'm making.
How is that possible when you already acknowledged that the people of the prince who is to come destroyed the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD? That means the prince who was to come was around in 70 AD or sooner as well or else it wouldn't make sense to call them "the people of the prince who is to come".
If they are not consecutive, then they are not determined.
But Daniel 9:24 declares "Seventy weeks are determined..."
Therefore, they must be consecutive and contiguous, which prohibits decapitation.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Right. The amount of time for Daniel 9:24 to be fulfilled is undetermined in the dispensational view, which blatantly contradicts what the prophecy itself indicates.
Daniel 9:27 (KJV) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Spiritual Israelite, why do you change "one week" into a period of seven years? The seven weeks and threescore and two weeks literal equal 490 years. Why would you not believe the one week was also literally fulfilled in seven days that describe the final week of Christ's ministry upon the earth? The final week (one) falls within the 490 years, but is set apart as the final one week to magnify the work that Messiah the Prince came to accomplish and was fulfilled through His death and resurrection. The final one week of Daniel’s prophecy was fulfilled through Christ from His anointing to His resurrection, all that Daniel prophesied of Him was fulfilled. The final one week of Christ’s earthly ministry is divided from the beginning of His earthly ministry to His cross is 3 ½ days, ends with His resurrection three days (from Fri to Sun) after that, which ushers in everlasting righteousness (eternal life) for whosoever believes the Gospel as it begins to be sent out from Christ’s Church unto all the nations of the earth.
"The anointing of Jesus in Matthew takes place two days before Passover in the town of Bethany at Simon the leper’s home: “Now when Jesus was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, a woman came up to him with an alabaster flask of very expensive ointment, and she poured it on his head as he reclined at table” (Matthew 26:6–7, ESV).
Matthew focuses on the anointing of Jesus as a teaching episode for the disciples, who react with anger because of the woman’s wasteful extravagance. But Jesus defends her, saying, “She has done a beautiful thing to me” (Matthew 26:10). Christ explains that the anointing is to prepare His body for burial and that the woman’s act of love will forever be remembered wherever the good news is preached."
What is the significance of Jesus being anointed by a woman with expensive perfume? | GotQuestions.org
What is the significance of Jesus being anointed by a woman with expensive perfume? How many different times was Jesus anointed with costly perfume?
www.gotquestions.org
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
To be consistent. Why would I see each of the first 69 weeks as referring to seven years each but not see the 70th week as a period of seven years as well?
What? How are you coming to that conclusion? No, 7 plus 62 is 69 weeks and if you multiply that by 7 it comes to 483 years. Add one week (the 70th week) of seven years and then it comes to 490 years (70 times 7).
Because that makes no sense. Somehow, you came to the conclusion that 69 times 7 is 490, but it's not. It's 483. So, that leaves one last week of seven years.
I can't make any sense of this. I couldn't possibly be more baffled. I have no idea how you conclude that "The seven weeks and threescore and two weeks literal equal 490 years." which seems to be the source of the rest of your reasoning here. Do you agree that seven weeks equals 49 years? Do you agree that "three score and two weeks" is 62 weeks? Well, 62 times 7 is 434. And 434 + 49 is 483. So, I just have no idea how you come to the conclusion that ""The seven weeks and threescore and two weeks literal equal 490 years.".The final week (one) falls within the 490 years, but is set apart as the final one week to magnify the work that Messiah the Prince came to accomplish and was fulfilled through His death and resurrection. The final one week of Daniel’s prophecy was fulfilled through Christ from His anointing to His resurrection, all that Daniel prophesied of Him was fulfilled. The final one week of Christ’s earthly ministry is divided from the beginning of His earthly ministry to His cross is 3 ½ days, ends with His resurrection three days (from Fri to Sun) after that, which ushers in everlasting righteousness (eternal life) for whosoever believes the Gospel as it begins to be sent out from Christ’s Church unto all the nations of the earth.
"The anointing of Jesus in Matthew takes place two days before Passover in the town of Bethany at Simon the leper’s home: “Now when Jesus was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, a woman came up to him with an alabaster flask of very expensive ointment, and she poured it on his head as he reclined at table” (Matthew 26:6–7, ESV).
Matthew focuses on the anointing of Jesus as a teaching episode for the disciples, who react with anger because of the woman’s wasteful extravagance. But Jesus defends her, saying, “She has done a beautiful thing to me” (Matthew 26:10). Christ explains that the anointing is to prepare His body for burial and that the woman’s act of love will forever be remembered wherever the good news is preached."
What is the significance of Jesus being anointed by a woman with expensive perfume? | GotQuestions.org
What is the significance of Jesus being anointed by a woman with expensive perfume? How many different times was Jesus anointed with costly perfume?www.gotquestions.org
Because the final one week is within the 490 years.
The following study comes from an in-depth article written before his death by Christian Gedge
"BC 538 Cyrus decree, BC 520 Darius re-issued, BC 457 Artaxerxes
One decree that was issued and re-issued: Ezra 6:14 (KJV) And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.
Seeing that Cyrus is the first to give the decree to restore the house in Jerusalem and the Temple was completed in the 6th Year of Darius: the count of the 69 Weeks begins with Cyrus and not Artaxerxes I. For in both decrees of Artaxerxes I we don't read of him telling the Jews to rebuild the Temple as it was already completed in the days of Zerubabel when Darius was king; and, from the words of Nehemiah he was only sad about the city of Jerusalem not being fully restored, not the Temple.
Nearly sixty years elapsed from Darius during which time the temple was completed, but rebuilding of Jerusalem’s infrastructure had to wait until Artaxerxes ratified the decree again in his seventh year. According to the Hebrew calendar, this date was 457 BC, and Ezra says it happened on the “first day of the first month in the seventh year of King Artaxerxes.” Now, when we count forward 483 years from 1 Nisan 457 BC, it comes out at 1 Nisan AD 27 - the time Jesus began his public ministry. When one considers how Daniel first predicts the decree nearly a century before it happened, then proceeds to telescope another 69 weeks further, we find a supernatural fulfilment of the ‘times’ in Jesus of Nazareth. Add that to the unlikely chance of a decree occurring on the cusp of a grand Jubilee cycle, and it cannot be brushed aside. These ‘coincidences’ defy the odds and provide powerful testimony to the identity of the Christ.
All that was written in Dan 9 must be fulfilled in 490 years which was accomplished when Christ, Messiah the Prince came. The final week is set apart to bring light to all that Christ accomplished within one week. NOT one week of years as so many seem to imagine.
From the decree issued first by Cyrus, then ratified by King Artaxerxes to the anointing of Christ at 27 years of age is 483 years. The final one week set apart, fulfilling the prophetic 490 years or 70 weeks of years being fulfilled. The final one week of Christ’s earthly ministry is divided from the beginning of His earthly ministry to His cross is 3 ½ days, ends with His resurrection three days (from Fri to Sun) after that, which ushers in everlasting righteousness (eternal life) for whosoever believes the Gospel as it begins to be sent out from Christ’s Church unto all the nations of the earth. The final one week of Daniel’s prophecy was fulfilled through Christ from His anointing to His resurrection, all that Daniel prophesied of Him was fulfilled."
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It's the last week of the 70 weeks, which equate to 490 years. Please explain this comment you made:
For the life of me, I can't understand why you said this. Can you explain it? If each week is seven years, then the seven weeks equates to 49 years and the threescore and two weeks (62 weeks) equates to 434 years. Add those two together and you get 483 years. That leaves 7 more years which is the 70th week. I can't figure out how you are trying to say it is 7 literal days instead of 7 years like the first 69 weeks. I'm completely baffled by this.rwb said:
I will read it, but I know what he believed and I am certain that he did not claim that the "one week" of Daniel 9:27 was a literal 7 days rather than representing the 70th week of 7 years like you're doing, so you did not get that from him.
He said this? It's not what I've seen him say before about his understanding of the 70th week which was in line with my understanding of the 70th week. Did his view change at some point? I can't comprehend this. Somehow, the first 69 weeks were 7 years each, but then the 70th week is 7 days? Where's the consistency in that view? I'm just baffled. I'm not convinced by this at all. I stand by what I said.
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