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MatthewG

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“having a part in the lake of fire is not forever.”
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“The one on the throne” told John to write this they are faithful and true.

“It seems people live outside the Kingdom.”

Revelation 22:14-15
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How do people reconcile people being just done away with when it doesn’t say anything about that…
 

MatthewG

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@keithr (I’m just curious) you expect a 1,000 years to be able to get people back to human perfection? Well, why can’t we go help those outside the kingdom and hopefully get them to come through the fire which comes from Yahavah? That could take 1,000 years of time, before someone like Hitler might turn away from himself and dying to his desires and ambitions going through the flames of fire coming form Yahvah, or just continue to stay out there…

If Angels could leave Yahvah, I don’t see why a resurrected person couldn’t walk right out the gates if they decided too…
 

Lizbeth

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@Lizbeth

the gates of the kingdom never close.

Justification of sins being paid for, Satan being done away with, and hell being done away with, are all on account of Jesus… for all people.

Many doubt the total victory of Yeshua for all.

Justification by faith to get into the Kingdom of Heaven, is to live a life filled with love and faith, to Yahavah and others.

Therefore, I hear what you been taught but you sure are not wrong? I can be wrong sometimes but I don’t believe I am about this.
What does it mean to perish? That is the opposite of eternal life and immortality. I think it means this, where Jesus said we are to fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell......."hell" being the lake of fire in the end, where those outside the kingdom are cast...? Death....the wages of sin.

From what I can see this is just a question of immortality or not. There are those who will perish like the beasts, it says in scripture, both old and new testaments. God doesn't owe anyone immortality....all have been given the gift of a temporal life, both man and animals. Which Jesus said if we are willing to "lose it" (our life in this world), we will find it (eternal life). If we seek to save our life in this world we will lose it, but if we lose it for His sake we will find it.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Listen, you can continue to hold that belief if you desire, I believe Jesus already came. It may be crazy to you, but it's not crazy to me.
This verse speaks of the rapture. so you believe jesus already came and the resurrection and catching up has already taken place? Proof?
 

MatthewG

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What does it mean to perish?

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Many different things.


image.jpg

If people are resurrected by resurrection of corruption… and people live outside the gates they are probably happy being there, God gives good gifts. But it would be better in my opinion to be with Yahavah, @Lizbeth.
 
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MatthewG

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This verse speaks of the rapture. so you believe jesus already came and the resurrection and catching up has already taken place? Proof?

I don’t need proof. It’s called faith.

I don’t believe those people who were waiting and watching for Jesus was lied to.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I don’t need proof. It’s called faith.

I don’t believe those people who were waiting and watching for Jesus was lied to.
So you believe this has happened:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

When I said proof, I was asking for the evidence of it happening. After all if hundreds of thousands of people simply vanished in teh blink of an eyue off teh earth, it would be recorded.
 

MatthewG

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So you believe this has happened:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17​

King James Version​

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

When I said proof, I was asking for the evidence of it happening. After all if hundreds of thousands of people simply vanished in teh blink of an eyue off teh earth, it would be recorded.


It was written to the people in Thessalonica.

“Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Real living breathing people of course I believe faithfully those words were not written to lie to those people. And it came to pass in the victory of Yeshua.

I don’t need proof… it’s call faith, it’s the foolishness of “tradition” that falls on its face.
 

Ronald Nolette

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It was written to the people in Thessalonica.

“Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Real living breathing people of course I believe faithfully those words were not written to lie to those people. And it came to pass in the victory of Yeshua.

I don’t need proof… it’s call faith, it’s the foolishness of “tradition” that falls on its face.
So yes or no- are you declaring that

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

King James Version

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

has already happened?
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Those that believe and have faith in God and Jesus now, who have been called by God to receive the amazing blessing of becoming adopted sons of God (in the first resurrection), they are judged worthy of eternal life and gain immortality in the first resurrection. John 1:12-13 (ISV):
The 1st and 2nd Resurrection are exactly the same. Those who are resurrected during the Second Coming, who have either died in Christ since Pentecost, Old Testament saints that have had Jesus' atonement imputed to them and those who are alive ( raptured), experience the 1st Resurrection.
People who are alive, prior to His Second Coming who were on the fence, had doubts so did not believe, including The Jewish remnant ( see Roma s 11), now see Christ and believe (after the 1st resurrection), so they missed out and must endure through the Great Tribulation and/ or die trying. Many people will survive the GT. Likely 5 million Jews will become born again. Many will be protected during this time. Rev. 7 & 14 mention 144k from 12 tribes ( that btw God has sustained throughout the generations unknown to us). These survivors will replenish the earth during the Millennial Kingdom - since we _ wotj new resurrected bodies _ will not procreate. New babies will be born, grow, live centuries and will have to make a decision for Christ during these 1000 years. Some will be deceived in the end by Satan when he is released. But all these newcomers to the faith will be resurrected as we were in the 2nd Resurrection. Capisce?
The rest of mankind, a large portion of whom will have no knowledge of Jesus and God, when they are resurrected (in the second resurrection) will still lack that knowledge. That is why Jesus (and the resurrected Christians) will reign over them for 1,000 years, teaching them and gently restoring them back to human perfection. Satan is locked up at the beginning of the 1,000 reign, so that he cannot deceive mankind any more, and everyone will come to learn the truth and will learn to live righteously. Satan is then released at the end of the 1,000 years to test everyone living on the earth. Those that side with Satan will be destroyed.
During the Millennial Kingdom _ initially _ there will be only Christians who ALL have the knowledge of God.
"For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea".Hab. 2:14
Listen, not a lot is said about life in the Millennial Kingdom, but enough.


Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established on top of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it. Many people shall come and say, 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall come forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations and rebuke many people; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." Isaiah 2:2-4)


The curse on creation, the botanicals and the animal kingdom will be removed and the entire world will live in peace.

“that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. Romans 8:21-22

Isaiah 11:6–9 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young ones shall lie down together; and the Lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole and the weaned child shall out his hand in the viper's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in My Holy mountain. For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea."



>>>Notice, that everyone on earth shall worship the true God. Also, this describes the first earth, not the New Jerusalem, since there are mountains, nations and seas.

Until the Spirit is poured out upon us from on high,
And the wilderness becomes a fertile field,
And the fertile field is considered as a forest.
Then justice will dwell in the wilderness
And righteousness will abide in the fertile field. And the work of righteousness will be peace,
And the service of righteousness, quietness and confidence forever.
Then my people will live in a peaceful habitation,
And in secure dwellings and in undisturbed resting places; Isaiah 32:15-18


"I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming in the clouds of heaven ... Then to Him was given dominion glory and kingdom, that all people's, nations and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom, the one which will not be destroyed." Daniel 7:13-14
 
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MatthewG

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So yes or no- are you declaring that

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18​

King James Version​

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

has already happened?



I told you those people were not lied to. Yes. I’m an openly confessing follower of Yeshua who proclaims that he did come back as promised to those people in faith. Otherwise Jesus is just a fraud in my opinion. So is the apostle who wrote that letter.



This is why I hate dealing with “traditions.”

Because people are gonna most likely side with what they believe “traditionally” and not what is true…
 

MatthewG

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@Ronald Nolette

Yes or no, where these people lied to?

“Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ ‭ESV‬‬

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

King James Version

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words


If they were lied too how can we justify anything that your quoting… how can we trust the Bible if all there is lies in it?

These people never seen the return? Is what some may say. I disagree.
 
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MatthewG

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@Ronald Nolette

Yes or no, where these people lied to?

“Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ ‭ESV‬‬

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18​

King James Version​

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words


If they were lied too how can we justify anything that your quoting… how can we trust the Bible if all there is lies in it?

These people never seen the return? Is what some may say. I disagree.


You can still comfort people in knowing that people are resurrected, inside or outside the kingdom but Yahavah is not angry with them… how could he be?


Their sins were paid for, the only decision people choose to make is either incorporating Yahvah in their life or deny him…

This is why I shared …
“having a part in the lake of fire is not forever.”
View attachment 49662
“The one on the throne” told John to write this they are faithful and true.

“It seems people live outside the Kingdom.”

Revelation 22:14-15
View attachment 49663


How do people reconcile people being just done away with when it doesn’t say anything about that…
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Again, where is this third location, (if not the Kingdom of Heaven and not Hell), do all those souls, whom you claim are saved but did not receive Jesus, go to?
You claim not to be a Universalist, yet at the same time claim that all are universally saved, universally justified.
Justification is BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH - which is a gift into the Kingdom of Heaven.
So your theology is severely flawed, contradictory and fabricated since you can't support it with scriptures. None of the scriptures you present support such a theology. Where did you get it?

An Amillennialist and (an offshoot derivative theology from Universalism is a very rare combo MatthewG!
 

MatthewG

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Again, where is this third location, (if not the Kingdom of Heaven and not Hell), do all those souls, whom you claim are saved but did not receive Jesus, go to?
You claim not to be a Universalist, yet at the same time claim that all are universally saved, universally justified.
Justification is BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH - which is a gift into the Kingdom of Heaven.
So your theology is severely flawed, contradictory and fabricated since you can't support it with scriptures. None of the scriptures you present support such a theology. Where did you get it?

An Amillennialist and (an offshoot derivative theology from Universalism is a very rare combo MatthewG!

What are you talking about? (post 61) All people are Justified in front of God - even with the sin life they lived. I continue to stand on my first post, in all people are able to get to Yahavah, because of Jesus Christ justifying their sins being paid for. If they accept that or not is on them. Everyone will reap what they sow.


Justification for all sins being paid for is by Christ. (that's for all people!)
Justification to get into the Kingdom of heaven, is by faith.

I never said anything different, and I dont know what you are talking about "third place."

Let Yahavah judge me, instead of you, my friend. @Ronald David Bruno, you may have issues with it but that is not my concern. My concern is bringing forth a new way to look at things, against all the religiosity out here in life.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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You evidently don't understand what justification is!
. I continue to stand on my first post, in all people are able to get to Yahavah, because of Jesus Christ justifying their sins being paid for.
Some men build their homes on the sand too!
Justification for all sins being paid for is by Christ. (that's for all people!)
We are justified by faith in Christ. If one does not have faith in Christ guess what?
Maybe you will figure it out someday.
Well MatthewG, at least you believe in Christ. He will explain the rest to you later on.
 

MatthewG

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Well MatthewG, at least you believe in Christ. He will explain the rest to you later on.

Okay then.

Everyone will reap what they sow, and Yahavah will judge them believer or not.

Anyone wondering about the post, please visit the original post at the beginning.
If anyone is wondering about the victory of Jesus Christ, please view the link below "Seven Lens, Concerning Fulfilment."
 
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keithr

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“It seems people live outside the Kingdom.”

Revelation 22:14-15
It does not say Kingdom, it says city.

Revelation 22:14-15 (WEB):
(14) Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.​
(15) Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.​

Those who do God's commandments have the right to eternal life, those who don't will perish. Only they have access to the city and to the tree of life, Revelation 21:27 (WEB):

(27) There will in no way enter into it anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.​

How do people reconcile people being just done away with when it doesn’t say anything about that…
Revelation 21:8 (WEB):

(8) But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”​
 

MatthewG

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It does not say Kingdom, it says city.

Revelation 22:14-15 (WEB):
(14) Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.​
(15) Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.​

Those who do God's commandments have the right to eternal life, those who don't will perish. Only they have access to the city and to the tree of life, Revelation 21:27 (WEB):

(27) There will in no way enter into it anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.​


Revelation 21:8 (WEB):

(8) But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”​

City, Kingdom. (It's the same to me.)

Yeah I know.

But you shouldn't keep going back and forth with me.

Make your own thread.

Thank you, respectfully matthew.
 

keithr

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@keithr (I’m just curious) you expect a 1,000 years to be able to get people back to human perfection?
A thousand years has been set aside for perfecting everyone. It is the easy way, not the narrow way that Christians have to take now.

Isaiah 11:1-10 (WEB):
(1) A shoot will come out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots will bear fruit. {Jesus}​
(2) Yahweh’s Spirit will rest on him: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Yahweh.​
(3) His delight will be in the fear of Yahweh. He will not judge by the sight of his eyes, neither decide by the hearing of his ears;​
(4) but with righteousness he will judge the poor, and decide with equity for the humble of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips he will kill the wicked.​
(5) Righteousness will be the belt of his waist, and faithfulness the belt of his waist.​
(6) The wolf will live with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the young goat; The calf, the young lion, and the fattened calf together; and a little child will lead them.​
(7) The cow and the bear will graze. Their young ones will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like the ox.​
(8) The nursing child will play near a cobra’s hole, and the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.​
(9) They will not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of Yahweh, as the waters cover the sea.​
(10) It will happen in that day that the nations will seek the root of Jesse, who stands as a banner of the peoples; and his resting place will be glorious.​

Isaiah 35:1-10 (WEB):
(1) The wilderness and the dry land will be glad. The desert will rejoice and blossom like a rose.​
(2) It will blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing. Lebanon’s glory will be given to it, the excellence of Carmel and Sharon. They will see Yahweh’s glory, the excellence of our God.​
(3) Strengthen the weak hands, and make firm the feeble knees.​
(4) Tell those who have a fearful heart, “Be strong. Don’t be afraid. Behold, your God will come with vengeance, God’s retribution. He will come and save you.​
(5) Then the eyes of the blind will be opened, and the ears of the deaf will be unstopped.​
(6) Then the lame man will leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute will sing; for waters will break out in the wilderness, and streams in the desert.​
(7) The burning sand will become a pool, and the thirsty ground springs of water. Grass with reeds and rushes will be in the habitation of jackals, where they lay.​
(8) A highway will be there, a road, and it will be called The Holy Way. The unclean shall not pass over it, but it will be for those who walk in the Way. Wicked fools will not go there.
(9) No lion will be there, nor will any ravenous animal go up on it. They will not be found there; but the redeemed will walk there.​
(10) Then Yahweh’s ransomed ones will return, and come with singing to Zion; and everlasting joy will be on their heads. They will obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing will flee away.”​

If Angels could leave Yahvah, I don’t see why a resurrected person couldn’t walk right out the gates if they decided too…
That's why there will be a testing and a judgement at the end of the 1,000 years of reign, to ensure that only those suitable for eternal life will be allowed to have eternal life.