The world has been “made right” in front of God.

[MatthewG]

The end of the acceptable time for sacrifice, the end of the preaching of the Gospel, will be when Jesus returns for his Church/bride:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (WEB):

(15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.​

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

Listen, you can continue to hold that belief if you desire, I believe Jesus already came. It may be crazy to you, but it's not crazy to me.

Again, this uses ALL as a way of including both Gentiles of faith and Jews of faith together.

I don't believe that is true. All people, includes believers and non-believers.

I read your whole post. It appears you do not know what the terms mean.

If one is justified before god the Father- they have been declared innocent and are saved.

Sanctification is th eprocess of making one holy or set apart for Gods service.

Justification is conditional on receiving christ. It is not simply given to all men.

I encourage you to do a word study of the passage, you will find some very interesting twists.

I also encourage you to do a topical study of justification.

I appreciate that encouragement. I believe I know whereI stand and do understand what I am talking about.

It seems people just are confused on what 'saved' means.



Listen, I know a lot of you believe I am wrong, but again, the post clearly shows that Jesus Christ death, was justification for coming to Yahavah.

It's not Justification in getting into the KINGDOM.
However, it's justification in having their sins taken care of..

Sorry if you guys have a problem with that, I wasn't expecting so many responses. I know many of you are older than me but let me just tell you, I am not gonna listen... (because it will continue to move and overrun the thread, with the people who want to "debate")

This is not I repeat "not the debate forum."

I stand firm on what has been shared...

@Ronald Nolette, @rwb, @keithr



Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

I'm not someone who believes Jesus Christ is coming again, I believe he already came, and that changes the whole dynamic of "traditional teachings." And it's not anything new... or demonic... it might be deemed Heresy but all Heresy is a difference of opinion. And there are many other people who also believe Jesus had come back as well, so I know I am not alone in my stance nor do I expect people to accept this stance.

Anyone wondering what is being talked about here, please visit the original post.

 

[keithr]

Listen, you can continue to hold that belief if you desire, I believe Jesus already came. It may be crazy to you, but it's not crazy to me.

Jesus said, John 14:2-3 (WEB):

(2) In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.​

(3) If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.​

or ESV:

(3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.​

So if Jesus already has come and taken you to be with him where he currently is (sat at the righthand of God), why are you still here on earth in human form?

I don't believe that is true. All people, includes believers and non-believers.

I agree with you on that.

1 Timothy 4:10 (WEB):

(10) For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men {all humans}, especially of those who believe.​

1 John 4:14 (WEB):

(14) We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world.​

and as I previously quoted, 1 John 2:2 (WEB):

(2) And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.​

or as the GNB puts it:

(2) And Christ himself is the means by which our sins are forgiven, and not our sins only, but also the sins of everyone.​

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

@MatthewG, 2-3% of some 2.7 billion Christians believe in Universalism. If God is sovereign and Universalism were true, 97-98% of us would believe it.
Notice that it's about 1/3 of the current population. This was God's plan. Evil captures many people. Satan takes souls, and death stings for many. If it was His plan to save everyone, we would all believe in Christ.
He is Sovereign and since Jesus is the AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH, the Author dictates reality. There has been this spiritual war going imon for 6000 years, a war for souls. We are drafted into this war and frankly it is a losing battle unless we put on the armor of God. He equips us with armor: a shield of Faith, a helmut lf Salvation and the Sword of the Word. But not all have this armor and they are defeated. They suffer the wages if sin - DEATH.
Most people are subject to good and evil, life and death, truth and lies. God is in control and allows evil for a purpose. Left to ourselves, humans without God will turn towards evil, as they did before the Flood of Noah. Death came to them quickly. Did they get a second chance? No, the door was shut. I am sure they tried to get in after they relaized they were in trouble - but IT WAS TOO LATE.
If you claim everyone gets saved, then death is meaningless.
The Gospel goes out to the world with love and a FERVENT PLEA for the world to come to Christ. BELIEVE IN JESUS, HAVE FAITH IN JESUS, JESUS SAVES, etc. But many will not. Saved from what? Death.
Universalism is claiming in essence that Spiritual Death does not really exist ( since everyone gets saved). If it doesn't, then we a not really saved from it are we?

The Gospel is an invitation, and a solution to our dilemma. Our purpose in life is to be reconciled back to God through Christ. If this does not happen by the time you die, the curse of death remains on you. It is not forgiven because either the free gift of eternal life was offered and rejected or it simply was not purposed for life. You may not think that is not fair but Romans 9:21 says that a potter has the right to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor from the same lump of clay.
And then of course Romans 1 states that "man is without excuse"!

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them." Rom. 1:18-32

God gives man every opportunity to realize that there is a Creator and that we need a relationship with Him. But it is evident that after continued rebelliousness, God let's many of souls go - not just temporarily, perminently _ to destruction - which is what is, the end of existence. We suffer physical death and know quite well what that means, but spiritual death, people seemed to be confused about. There are various ideas about what happens after physical death to the soul/ spirit of man.
The Bible says Hades (everyone in it) and Death itself is thrown into the Lake of Fire (Hell) and destroyed. I think of that scene on Lord Of The Rings when Golum falls into that Volcanic lava lake. That's as close to the experience as we can imagine:the lake of fire, painful, deadly but quick. He came to his end.
Eternal life is a gift, but one must receive it, believe it, have a relationship with God.
Jesus will say, away from me to many, I do not know you (meaning, I do not have a relationship with you).
Jesus taught about Hell more than He did Heaven. Was it just a scare tactic, not a real place - since no one will go there? Don't be fooled.

 

[MatthewG]

@Ronald David Bruno

I stand on what has been shared in the original post.
I'm a believer in the total victory of Jesus Christ.
That Jesus Christ came and got the established bride in that day in age.
I am not fixing to read all of that, sir. Not out of disrespect it's just there is no sense in just even addressing me like this.

I don't believe in "Universalism" (EVERYONE GOES RIGHT INTO THE KINGDOM OF THE HEAVENLY CITY) So please, don't get that twisted.

Please go back and read the original post if you would like to, and if you would like to respond to that, that would be preferred.

 

[MatthewG]

Jesus said, John 14:2-3 (WEB):

(2) In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.​

(3) If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.​

or ESV:

(3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.​

So if Jesus already has come and taken you to be with him where he currently is (sat at the righthand of God), why are you still here on earth in human form?


I agree with you on that.

1 Timothy 4:10 (WEB):

(10) For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men {all humans}, especially of those who believe.​

1 John 4:14 (WEB):

(14) We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world.​

and as I previously quoted, 1 John 2:2 (WEB):

(2) And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.​

or as the GNB puts it:

(2) And Christ himself is the means by which our sins are forgiven, and not our sins only, but also the sins of everyone.​

Yeshua lives in me by his spirit. One day I will die. If you take the bible LITERALLY, written to you, then it's normal you would believe that Yeshua is going to come back to get you. I do not belive the bible was written "to" me. That is the difference.

You ask me "if Jesus is already came and taken the bride, why are you still here in human form."

I was never promised to see Yeshua, come in my lifetime... it's always the lifetime of that generation... you can agree, disagree but most of the time people take the bible Literally and that it was written specifically "to" them when that is not true...

The bible is written "for" us, but none of those addressed in the gospels has to do with us, but indeed the real living breathing human beings of that time...

That's why I am still here. Waiting for the day I die, and go on to be with Yahavah, hopefully because of the Lord Yeshua, and what he has done not just for me but the whole world.

If you can accept this as my viewpoints - then you should now understand my perspective... @keithr whether or not it shakes your own faith... I can't tell you because even the faith of people can be shaken... all things have to be shaken to the ground... then rebuilt up to get to truth sometimes.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

@Ronald David Bruno

I stand on what has been shared in the original post.
I'm a believer in the total victory of Jesus Christ.
That Jesus Christ came and got the established bride in that day in age.
I am not fixing to read all of that, sir. Not out of disrespect it's just there is no sense in just even addressing me like this.

I don't believe in "Universalism" (EVERYONE GOES RIGHT INTO THE KINGDOM OF THE HEAVENLY CITY) So please, don't get that twisted.

Please go back and read the original post if you would like to, and if you would like to respond to that, that would be preferred.

Oh come on, you believe that all people will be eventually saved. That is Universalism in a nutshell.

That is how "Universally Reconciled" works - all people have been saved "from" their sin, death, Satan, hell.

There it is. You seem not want to be included in a group, ( Universalists) denying one term yet at the same time applying it to reconciliation, which is the point maim issue of the Universalist, salvation for everyone.

But not everyone is "Universally" saved "to" the Kingdom... of Heaven going into the entrancewa

You are either in the Kingdom of God or NOT. If you are not part of the Kingdom of Heaven by the time you die, you are not saved from death. You wonder why so many of us disagree with your philosophy.
Actually, a 34 year old guy should be out working, being productive, independent, helping out his parents, starting a family ... LIVING LIFE; not spending hours on end online spouting out your opinions that don't really influence anyone. Do something, set goals, live!
TOO MUCH TIME on computers, isolates individuals, causingnthem to be introverts, disconnected to people and therefore try to substitute with online friends _ who they really don't know or will break bread with.Their phones/ computers have become an idol, they worship them, can't live without them.
My nephew is 25, works, but plays video games in his free time, so much so he is not interested in getting a girlfriend or experiencing and enjoying life outside his cyberworld - no time. What the heck is wrong with these Millennials? Misplaced values for sure.

 

[MatthewG]

Oh come on, you believe that all people will be eventually saved. That is Universalism in a nutshell.

There it is. You seem not want to be included in a group, ( Universalists) denying one term yet at the same time applying it to reconciliation, which is the point maim issue of the Universalist, salvation for everyone.

You are either in the Kingdom of God or NOT. If you are not part of the Kingdom of Heaven by the time you die, you are not saved from death. You wonder why so many of us disagree with your philosophy.
Actually, a 34 year old guy should be out working, being productive, independent, helping out his parents, starting a family ... LIVING LIFE; not spending hours on end online spouting out your opinions that don't really influence anyone. Do something, set goals, live!
TOO MUCH TIME on computers, isolates individuals, causingnthem to be introverts, disconnected to people and therefore try to substitute with online friends _ who they really don't know or will break bread with.Their phones/ computers have become an idol, they worship them, can't live without them.
My nephew is 25, works, but plays video games in his free time, so much so he is not interested in getting a girlfriend or experiencing and enjoying life outside his cyberworld - no time. What the heck is wrong with these Millennials? Misplaced values for sure.

You have some personal issues you should work out on your own time, Ronald. (Please refrain from commenting if you're gonna talk to me like you own me.)

I do not believe in "Universalism." Why would I write this out... I do believe in universal justification for all people in their sins have been taken care off. You could call it universal salvation from, death, hell, Satan, and sin because of the Lord Yeshua.

But not everyone goes on to accept the forgiveness of the Lord Jesus and follow him, which is what gets us into that Kingdom.

Universalism is a dangerous doctrine

Link Directive - All considerable information for the benefit of skeptics, believers, or unbelievers. Keep growing and maturing, look at the scriptures and seek truth, and may the spirit guide. #2 The End of Material Religion # 14 For your consideration. -> A FEW QUICK COMMENTS ON FULFILLMENT...

www.christianityboard.com

Why are faithless people claimed to be outside of the gates of the city in heaven?

Hello there, PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE POST Many people believe that God is going to destroy people in the lake of fire, but is that true? In Revelation 20, you see that the devil, the false prophet, the beast are all placed in the lake of fire forever; and then following those who name was not...

www.christianityboard.com

Universalism is a nutshell is "everyone immediately goes right in the gates of the Kingdom."

I do not believe that. There is only "one way" and it's through the Lord Yeshua, and going through his gate. Not trying to around and jump fence either.

You can disagree with me all day, and say what you want. But your personal vendetta, is noted.

(I continue to stand on my original post concerning the justification for life for all people.)

 

[keithr]

@MatthewG
If it was His plan to save everyone, we would all believe in Christ.

Everyone is saved from death as a result of Jesus' sacrifice of his life on the cross, but not everyone is saved from the second death. God's plan is to give everyone the opportunity to have eternal life, but it's not His plan that everyone should come to have faith in Jesus now. Since Jesus' resurrection God has been selecting and calling people to become members of the body of Christ, who will become joint heirs of God with Jesus, and adopted sons of God, and who will reign with Jesus over resurrected mankind (and the angels) for 1,000 years. Then, after those judged unworthy of eternal life are punished with eternal death - the second death - Jesus will hand the perfected Kingdom over to God - 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (WEB):

(24) Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power.​

(25) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.​

(26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.​

(27) For, “He put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when he says, “All things are put in subjection”, it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him.​

(28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​

 

[keithr]

That's why I am still here. Waiting for the day I die, and go on to be with Yahavah, hopefully because of the Lord Yeshua, and what he has done not just for me but the whole world.

So why don't you believe the Scriptures, as written by Paul who had direct commmunication from Jesus concerning his coming return to collect the church? Speaking to that first generation of Christians, who, while expecting Jesus to return soon for the church, were grieving because some of their Christian brethren had died and so they thought that those that had died had missed out on Jesus' return for the Church, Paul wrote, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (WEB):

(13) But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep {Christians that have died}, so that you don’t grieve like the rest {non-Christians}, who have no hope.​

(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.​

(15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.​

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

(18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

There has never been a large number of Christians disappearing in an instant (changed to be spirit beings and then raptured, or caught up to be with Jesus), so therefore Jesus has not yet returned for the Church - it's a still future event. All Christians, those that have died and those alive at the time of Jesus' return, will all be changed and caught up at more or less the same time ("in a twinkling of an eye") so if you're still here in human form then Jesus hasn't yet returned, or you've missed out! 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (WEB):

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep {die}, but we will all be changed,​

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

If you can accept this as my viewpoints - then you should now understand my perspective... @keithr whether or not it shakes your own faith... I can't tell you because even the faith of people can be shaken... all things have to be shaken to the ground... then rebuilt up to get to truth sometimes.

No, your viewpoint does not shake my faith! Paul's teaching about Jesus' return for the Church is quite clear and easy to understand, whereas your view on Jesus' return is not in harmony with the Scriptures and history. You should question whether you may have misunderstood this subject (please think about it carefully, and by the grace of God you may come to realise the truth, which is way more amazing than your current misunderstanding ).

 

[MatthewG]

So why don't you believe the Scriptures, as written by Paul who had direct commmunication from Jesus concerning his coming return to collect the church? Speaking to that first generation of Christians, who, while expecting Jesus to return soon for the church, were grieving because some of their Christian brethren had died and so they thought that those that had died had missed out on Jesus' return for the Church, Paul wrote, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (WEB):

(13) But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep {Christians that have died}, so that you don’t grieve like the rest {non-Christians}, who have no hope.​

(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.​

(15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.​

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

(18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

There has never been a large number of Christians disappearing in an instant (changed to be spirit beings and then raptured, or caught up to be with Jesus), so therefore Jesus has not yet returned for the Church - it's a still future event. All Christians, those that have died and those alive at the time of Jesus' return, will all be changed and caught up at more or less the same time ("in a twinkling of an eye") so if you're still here in human form then Jesus hasn't yet returned, or you've missed out! 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (WEB):

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep {die}, but we will all be changed,​

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

No, your viewpoint does not shake my faith! Paul's teaching about Jesus' return for the Church is quite clear and easy to understand, whereas your view on Jesus' return is not in harmony with the Scriptures and history. You should question whether you may have misunderstood this subject (please think about it carefully, and by the grace of God you may come to realise the truth, which is way more amazing than your current misunderstanding ).

Keith.

1 Thessalonians 1​

​

New International Version​

1 Paul, Silas[a] and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

Grace and peace to you.

Thanksgiving for the Thessalonians’ Faith​

2 We always thank God for all of you and continually mention you in our prayers. 3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

4 For we know, brothers and sisters[b] loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. 7 And so you became a model to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 The Lord’s message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia—your faith in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it, 9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

Stop. I do believe the scriptures, but you are twisting or you're not even reading my comments or even trying to understand what I am saying.

You need just walk away if you are gonna continue to go on about this, I told you already, this is not a debate.

You're suggesting I believe a "tradition." No thank you. I continue to stand on my belief concerning the return of Christ, but this is not that subject or topic, you'll need to just get back on topic if you wanna continue. However, you just need to stop "thinking you need to correct me." I respect your beliefs, but I do not accept what you're telling me, because the ones who were told that Jesus were coming was those people at that time...

So please, just stop, you are really wasting your time. I told you already "I am not gonna listen." I hear you though, but I don't have to accept your view.

 

[keithr]

Stop. I do believe the scriptures, but you are twisting or you're not even reading my comments or even trying to understand what I am saying.

I understand what you have written, but I believe you are incorrect! I'm not twisting the Scriptures, I've quoted them in full - please explain why you think my understanding of them is incorrect, and/or why you ignore them.

I told you already, this is not a debate.

This is a Bible Study discussion forum. It has been created so that people can discuss and debate about the meaning of the Bible. That's what I'm doing.

You're suggesting I believe a "tradition."

No I'm not. I've never heard of the tradition that you believe! The Christians traditions are more in line with what I've been saying. Wikipedia says:

The Second Coming (sometimes called the Second Advent or the Parousia) is the Christian belief that Jesus Christ will return to Earth after his ascension to Heaven (which is said to have occurred about two thousand years ago). The idea is based on messianic prophecies and is part of most Christian eschatologies.​

​

Most English versions of the Nicene Creed include the following statements:​

​

...he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in his glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. ... We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.​

but I do not accept what you're telling me, because the ones who were told that Jesus were coming was those people at that time...

By that reasoning you won't believe any of the Bible!

 

[MatthewG]

I understand what you have written, but I believe you are incorrect! I'm not twisting the Scriptures, I've quoted them in full - please explain why you think my understanding of them is incorrect, and/or why you ignore them.


This is a Bible Study discussion forum. It has been created so that people can discuss and debate about the meaning of the Bible. That's what I'm doing.


No I'm not. I've never heard of the tradition that you believe! The Christians traditions are more in line with what I've been saying. Wikipedia says:

The Second Coming (sometimes called the Second Advent or the Parousia) is the Christian belief that Jesus Christ will return to Earth after his ascension to Heaven (which is said to have occurred about two thousand years ago). The idea is based on messianic prophecies and is part of most Christian eschatologies.​

​

Most English versions of the Nicene Creed include the following statements:​

​

...he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in his glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. ... We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.​

By that reasoning you won't believe any of the Bible!

Now you have, it's against tradition. Stick to the topic.

 

[Lizbeth]

It’s a problem for many, religious people for sin to be done and over with. Cause the repentance isn’t “oh God I stole a cookie” it’s “Lord God help me be more relying on you!” “Lord God help my faith!” That’s the gist.

Cause naturally when a believer sins, they are confronted by the guilt instantly or realized later. Their sins are paid for but, they just realized what they had done and they desire for it to not happen again, but doesn’t mean a person won’t steal ever again. (Ever steal someone’s time?) (ever gossip that’s taking away time and life from the other.)

But it’s not going to a pastor or a reverend saying “oh I stole a cookies!” You go to Yahavah about these things yourself and you start being responsible for your life in front of the God of Israel who adopted people as his children due to faith…

When a person who is a nonbeliever sins, there may be no remorse or guilt. They have yet to awaken to the truth in spiritual experience, because they are still spiritually dead not yet made alive to realize. Doesn’t mean later on they won’t, or that they are t justified before Yahavah… they are… it’s just they are completely responsible for themselves, and Yahavah will see ( did they have faith, did the love) despite any set back a individual may go through.

Justification is by faith, not apart from it. And salvation is eternal life which is for those who believe in Christ...as opposed to perishing. "that whosoever believes in Him will have eternal life". What does it mean to be "outside" the kingdom? That is condemnation (Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.) and it means to perish, because the kingdom is an eternal kingdom and those outside who are not in it don't have access to its eternal life....or more to the point those who aren't in Christ don't have His eternal life.

 

[MatthewG]

@Lizbeth

the gates of the kingdom never close.

Justification of sins being paid for, Satan being done away with, and hell being done away with, are all on account of Jesus… for all people.

Many doubt the total victory of Yeshua for all.

Justification by faith to get into the Kingdom of Heaven, is to live a life filled with love and faith, to Yahavah and others.

Therefore, I hear what you been taught but you sure are not wrong? I can be wrong sometimes but I don’t believe I am about this.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I do not believe in "Universalism." Why would I write this out... I do believe in universal justification for all people in their sins have been taken care off. You could call it universal salvation from, death, hell, Satan, and sin because of the Lord Yeshua.

Sounds like a contradiction to me because Universalism believes in universal justifucation/salvation.

Okay, I'm beginning to see the difference. You think: Everyone gets saved, but not everyone gets into the kingdom.
>>> So those who are saved from Satan, death and the Lake of Fire that did not believe in Jesus ... go where exactly ... outside of the Kingdom???

What is that place called, the Twilight Zone? I suppose they are gnashing teeth there?
There is nothing outside the New Jerusalem, there is only salvation/ eternal life in Christ, in the Kingdom. Well scholars would argue that there is, outer darkness, eternal Hell. Catholics say a Purgatory exists, a temporary place where people burn off sins, a place where they prepare for Heaven.
But you can imagine and create this realm. Where is this third realm in scripture?

Christ does not cleanse everyone from sin. If He did, that would mean everyone is forgiven, hence would be accepted/ received into the Kingdom of Heaven.
So you seem to think there will be several spiritual locations, Heaven, Hell and some other place?
For the record, I do not believe in an eternal Hell. I think the Lake of Fire destroys people who are thrown in there within seconds (whoever was imprisoned in Hades, Death, Satan and his demons). So you are either in Christ, forgiven and welcomed into Heaven/New Jerusalem or destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

 

[MatthewG]

Sounds like a contradiction to me because Universalism believes in universal justifucation/salvation.

Okay, I'm beginning to see the difference. You think: Everyone gets saved, but not everyone gets into the kingdom.
>>> So those who are saved from Satan, death and the Lake of Fire that did not believe in Jesus ... go where exactly ... outside of the Kingdom???

What is that place called, the Twilight Zone? I suppose they are gnashing teeth there?
There is nothing outside the New Jerusalem, there is only salvation/ eternal life in Christ, in the Kingdom. Well scholars would argue that there is, outer darkness, eternal Hell. Catholics say a Purgatory exists, a temporary place where people burn off sins, a place where they prepare for Heaven.
But you can imagine and create this realm. Where is this third realm in scripture?

Christ does not cleanse everyone from sin. If He did, that would mean everyone is forgiven, hence would be accepted/ received into the Kingdom of Heaven.
So you seem to think there will be several spiritual locations, Heaven, Hell and some other place?
For the record, I do not believe in an eternal Hell. I think the Lake of Fire destroys people who are thrown in there within seconds (whoever was imprisoned in Hades, Death, Satan and his demons). So you are either in Christ, forgiven and welcomed into Heaven/New Jerusalem or destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

Read revelation 21,22. On going pictures.


Jesus death was justifiable before Yahavah for all people. Believer or not, saving them from hell, death, sin, Satan.

Now justified by faith grants entering the kingdom, because of Yeshua, loving God and loving others.

 

[MatthewG]

Not many people will accept this death of Jesus true…

Tradition says you must “accept Jesus to have your sins forgiven” when in reality they have been.

Jesus had forgiven your sins before you ever came to him, you accept the forgiveness and follow him picking up your own cross.

“Father forgive theM, for they know not what they do.”

Then it becomes responsibility of the person who hears about this forgiveness to accept and move onward in newness of putting on Christ.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Everyone is saved from death as a result of Jesus' sacrifice of his life on the cross, but not everyone is saved from the second death.

Well, that sounds conflicting. Saved from the first death but not the second death? Death is death. Hades is occupied by souls who are awaiting final judgment, the Lake of Fire. I don't adhere to the traditional concept of eternal Hell. All unbelievers, Satan, demons, Hades and death itself is thrown in this Lake of Fire, when the first heaven and earth is destroyed in this fervent heat event ( 2 Peter 3:10). It's over quickly, comes to an end. That is what destruction means. You can't destroy something endlessly that would be an indestructible destruction irbimperishable persisting - a contradiction. And what would be the purpose of having souls suffer in an eternal torture chamber for a few years or decades of sinning? God is just and fair. Evil things, spirits and souls come to an end and only Good survives. How could we enjoy Heaven knowing there are suffering souls in an eternal Hell? God would have to delete our awareness of such a place, leaving only Him with the knowledge. Why would He desire that? Physical death gives us an idea of what the second death is. Death is finally destroyed iin that event, meaning it will no longer exist.

 

[MatthewG]

if no one no longer exists, why are faithless people in heaven… unbelievers aren’t said to be in the lake of fire forever.

I told you? Go read revelation 21,22…

Revelation 20 has nothing to do with both of those chapters. Except being over with, cause the age ended. The old administration from Mosaic law? Changed to Yeshua being the new administration in which we are given the Holy Spirit and don’t have to go back to those old former ways, which was only for Jewish people.

 

[keithr]

Well, that sounds conflicting.

Not really. Those that believe and have faith in God and Jesus now, who have been called by God to receive the amazing blessing of becoming adopted sons of God (in the first resurrection), they are judged worthy of eternal life and gain immortality in the first resurrection. John 1:12-13 (ISV):

​

(12) However, to all who received him, those believing in his name, he gave authority to become God's children,​

(13) who were born, not merely in a genetic sense, nor from lust, nor from man's desire, but from the will of God.​

The rest of mankind, a large portion of whom will have no knowledge of Jesus and God, when they are resurrected (in the second resurrection) will still lack that knowledge. That is why Jesus (and the resurrected Christians) will reign over them for 1,000 years, teaching them and gently restoring them back to human perfection. Satan is locked up at the beginning of the 1,000 reign, so that he cannot deceive mankind any more, and everyone will come to learn the truth and will learn to live righteously. Satan is then released at the end of the 1,000 years to test everyone living on the earth. Those that side with Satan will be destroyed. Acts 3:19-23 (WEB):

(19) “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, so that there may come times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord,​

(20) and that he may send Christ Jesus, who was ordained for you before,​

(21) whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets.​

(22) For Moses indeed said to the fathers, ‘The Lord God will raise up a prophet for you from among your brothers, like me. You shall listen to him in all things whatever he says to you.​

(23) It will be that every soul that will not listen to that prophet {Jesus} will be utterly destroyed from among the people.’​

Saved from the first death but not the second death? Death is death.

As Jesus said, Matthew 10:28 (WEB):

(28) Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

In the first death, the body dies but the soul (or spirit) continues to exist, which God can and will restore to life in the resurrection, giving a new body for it to live in. The second death is when God will destroy both the body and the soul - a permanent, eternal death from which there will be no restoration to life again.

I don't adhere to the traditional concept of eternal Hell.

Nor do I. I'm in agreement with you about that.