The world has been “made right” in front of God.

[MatthewG]

Yes, my sins were paid for on the cross, but I was not forgiven until I came to faith.

Okay. Then so is everyone else.

That is the entire point that I'm making. You are suggesting that someone doesn't have to come to faith in order to be forgiven.

I am suggesting that it's all about faith, and coming to Christ and following him. They have been forgiven of their sin, and the only sin that remains is the sin of "unbelief."

That is a gigantic problem.

No it's not.

We must come to faith in order to be forgiven.

That comes from understanding that Jesus Christ has paid for your sins already. He has forgiven you. Do you accept that forgiveness or not?

We don't put our faith in Jesus Christ, we will not be saved.

You wont be saved "to" the Kingdom of Heaven... That's right. It's not "being saved from your sins" That is already done for on the cross.

are you suggesting that I don't have to believe in order to be saved?

Where did you ever get that idea, and what are you being saved from ? Jesus has had the victory over sin, death, hell, satan... and saved all people from these things... not everyone is saved "to" the Kingdom, due to "lack of faith."

 

[Super Kal]

Okay. Then so is everyone else.

What do you mean by "everyone else"?
Everyone else as in all Christians, or everyone else as in the unbelieving world?
The unbelieving world will not receive their justification and full until they repent of their sins and turn to faith in Jesus Christ... that is the only way that they will receive that justification in full.
When you don't have faith, you do not receive the fullness of that justification.
It's that simple.

You need to be specific with that, and this is why I edited my comet to bring up people like Anton La Vay, and Aleister Crowley, and George Carlin, and Adolf Hitler... yes, Jesus died for these people, and yes, justification was made available to them, but they did not receive that justification because they never believed in Jesus Christ... you're trying to make it look like no one has to believe in order to receive that justification. That's the ultimate problem I'm having with what you're saying...

Justification will not be applied to your life if you reject Jesus.
And even when we do come to faith in Jesus Christ, and receive that justification in full BY FAITH, As Paul clearly states in Romans 5:1, we can still reject the justification that we have received through His death by continuing an unrepentant sin or falling away due to false doctrine.

Where did you ever get that idea, and what are you being saved from?

That is the overall summarization that I'm getting from you... that's why I'm bringing it up.
Now if that's not what you mean, you need to clarify that

Jesus saves us from the wrath to come, the second death, the lake of fire; 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Revelation 20:4-6, Romans 6:23...

 

[Super Kal]

Now wait a minute... let me ask you a different question, so that I hope to understand what you mean better, because The way I see salvation may be different from the way you see salvation... I do believe you and I both believe it is through faith, but I need to know if you hold to monergism or synergism:

Is salvation all of God's work, or is men required to do anything to be saved?

 

[MatthewG]

I believe differently because I am someone who believes that the Wrath of God has done came, and that Jesus came and took the first bride of Christ, in 70Ad. @Super Kal l. It's a faith-based stance. It's good you are taking a minute to ask this question. Brillant rather, as it confirms your ability to think! Critically, and never believe anything I ever say or share.

 

[Super Kal]

Okay, this makes more sense, now that I know where you're coming from... You and I are going to fundamentally disagree with one another, because I'm not a preterist.

The final judgment has not come, death is still on this Earth, sins still exists, and Jesus has not come back yet.

And because of that, we have not received the justification in full, because the first resurrection has not happened, and we are not immortal beings currently.

Right now we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, with an assurance that if we remain in Christ until the last day, we will see our glorification be made full in the return of Jesus christ, and the resurrection of the dead, and the eternal life to come.

Having said all of that, this will be my last post in this thread, I'm not going to put you on ignore anything, I think that even though we may disagree with one another, we still have reached common ground where at least we understand each person is coming from, but for me to continue posting in this thread is, honestly, pointless, because I'm never going to be a preterist, I'm never ever going to affirm preterism, and we're just not going to agree with one other on what justification is

 

[MatthewG]

Okay, this makes more sense, now that I know where you're coming from... You and I are going to fundamentally disagree with one another, because I'm not a preterist.

Im a fulfillment view type of person. I believe in the fulfillment of all of Jesus promised and he did not lie to that generation, nor did Paul lie to his audience, nor the others when mentioning the coming of the Lord in that day in age.

The final judgment has not come, death is still on this Earth, sins still exists, and Jesus has not come back yet.

And because of that, we have not received the justification in full, because the first resurrection has not happened, and we are not immortal beings currently.

Right now we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, with an assurance that if we remain in Christ until the last day, we will see our glorification be made full in the return of Jesus christ, and the resurrection of the dead, and the eternal life to come.

Cool, and I respect that. I’m glad to know what you believe. And can continue to love you, for you. You’re still a brother in Christ. I’m very proud and happy for your critical engagement! Maybe it’s my brain being not so anxious since having to quit using drugs…

Either way you got something about ya! And hope you stick around and continue to help people by Christ in you.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Yes!! Jesus bought us a pardon but that pardon does us no good if we don't believe and accept Him as our Lord and Savior.

 

[MatthewG]

Yes!! Jesus bought us a pardon but that pardon does us no good if we don't believe and accept Him as our Lord and Savior.

That would mean Jesus death is invalid it sounds like.

Jesus pardon is on death, sin, hell, and Satan. Saving all from these things except the ( unfaithful- belief in faith in faithlessness ) this is what keeps people from being “saved to” the kingdom. Jesus blood has justified all being saved from those things only not “to” the kingdom of heaven.

So I would not go as so far to say Jesus pardon does no good! That’s not true either, @GISMYS_7.

Of course not many people believe in the victory of Jesus for all people. They see only victory for themselves instead… while telling everyone else about their sins, they are headed to hell, and that God doesn’t love you unless you repent…

God loved us as we were before we came to him? But now adopts us as his and the renewal of the mind begins, towards things of Christ, and in faith their life changes, because Yahavah is working with them. Yes people do end up (repenting) turning from a prior unfaithful standing to a faithful one, but I believe it requires for us to trust in the victory of Jesus on behalf of all people.

It does not mean everyone is saved “to” the kingdom- but theirs sins have been paid for. They aren’t going hell ( new place is outside the kingdom in revelation.)

It all stims from how one sees thing and I don’t see things as many people do in the mainstream light of religion which makes you conform to their ways and will, and they are you middle man between you and God…

Thank you for your comment;

Jesus pardon was for all people.
Being saved to the kingdom requires faith.
Those who change their mind in walking from unfaithful to faiths will.
Those who won’t wont.

Sorry for the long response but I had to make this suggestion as you have made a suggestion concerning Jesus death not being valid for all people “unless they believe.” That just isn’t true, his death and rising tied the knot between God and the World. He is not any longer angry with the world it’s been reconciled to Him! For the sake of ALL.


(And anyone reading please see the original post.) It all ties together like a knot.

 

[MatthewG]

That would mean Jesus death is invalid it sounds like.

Jesus pardon is on death, sin, hell, and Satan. Saving all from these things except the ( unfaithful- belief in faith in faithlessness ) this is what keeps people from being “saved to” the kingdom. Jesus blood has justified all being saved from those things only not “to” the kingdom of heaven.

So I would not go as so far to say Jesus pardon does no good! That’s not true either, @GISMYS_7.

Of course not many people believe in the victory of Jesus for all people. They see only victory for themselves instead… while telling everyone else about their sins, they are headed to hell, and that God doesn’t love you unless you repent…

God loved us as we were before we came to him? But now adopts us as his and the renewal of the mind begins, towards things of Christ, and in faith their life changes, because Yahavah is working with them. Yes people do end up (repenting) turning from a prior unfaithful standing to a faithful one, but I believe it requires for us to trust in the victory of Jesus on behalf of all people.

It does not mean everyone is saved “to” the kingdom- but theirs sins have been paid for. They aren’t going hell ( new place is outside the kingdom in revelation.)

It all stims from how one sees thing and I don’t see things as many people do in the mainstream light of religion which makes you conform to their ways and will, and they are you middle man between you and God…

Thank you for your comment;

Jesus pardon was for all people.
Being saved to the kingdom requires faith.
Those who change their mind in walking from unfaithful to faiths will.
Those who won’t wont.

Sorry for the long response but I had to make this suggestion as you have made a suggestion concerning Jesus death not being valid for all people “unless they believe.” That just isn’t true, his death and rising tied the knot between God and the World. He is not any longer angry with the world it’s been reconciled to Him! For the sake of ALL.


(And anyone reading please see the original post.) It all ties together like a knot.

Concerning Wrath of Yahavah. That was poured out on Israel. As far as I believe… because it was destroyed and laid to waste as Yeshua has foretold. 40 years prior. So wrath is not part of the equation either.

 

[keithr]

It does not mean everyone is saved “to” the kingdom- but theirs sins have been paid for.

Yes, that's sort of how I see it too. Jesus' sacrifice has paid the redemption price for everyone, so everyone's sins will be forgiven and God is justified in resurrecting everyone to life again. To gain eternal life we must believe in Jesus and accept his sacrifice. Christians believe in this Gospel age, and will be resurrected perfect and given immortality, just as Jesus was at his resurrection. Everyone else will be resurrected in the second resurrection, and will learn to believe in Jesus during the Millennial Age - those that don't believe and prefer to side with Satan will perish, and not have eternal life (an eternal punishment, with no hope of another resurrection).

1 John 2:2 (WEB):

(2) And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.​

John 3:16-17 (WEB):

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

(17) For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.​

However, the opportunity to become members of the body of Christ, and to have a part in the first resurrection to spirit beings, having a home in heaven and sharing in Jesus' reign over the rest of mankind who will be resurrected as humans again, that requires God to call who He chooses, during this Gospel Age (before the first resurrection). Jesus said, John 6:44-45 (WEB):

(44) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.​

(45) It is written in the prophets, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me.​

Those who don't believe are no different than those that do, it's just that God has called whoever He decides to call, and draws them to Jesus, giving them faith (a free gift from God). Ephesians 2:4-10 (WEB):

(4) But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us,​

(5) even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),​

(6) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,​

(7) that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus;​

(8) for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,​

(9) not of works, that no one would boast.​

(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.​

2 Timothy 1:9-10 (WEB):

(9) who {God} saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,​

(10) but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the Good News.​

 

[MatthewG]

Yes, that's sort of how I see it too. Jesus' sacrifice has paid the redemption price for everyone, so everyone's sins will be forgiven and God is justified in resurrecting everyone to life again.

I don't believe in a Gospel age. I believe that the ending of the Age of the time of the Gospels in reaches the whole world (of that specific lands which were to be reached "their world at that time."

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you, and you will be witnesses for Me, both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the uttermost part of the earth."

Just as it's mentioned here.

Quoting things "Father drawing them" well that will be by the holy spirit. In Revelation, it states "The Spirit and the bride say come!"

Therefore Yahavha is calling to all every day. So I don't agree fully with your whole interpretation.

Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.


@keithr - while your view is accepted by many, and I respect it - I do not fully accept it myself.

 

[rwb]

RWB, I believe it's talking about how all sins are taken care of for the world, believer or not... This is about Justification in front of Yahavah. All are justified in front of Yahavah... because of Jesus and his payment for their sin. The only thing is, it seems they have the choice to include Yahavah in their life or reject him. Which a believer goes on to "sanctification." A non-believer remains spiritually dead, until they come to Christ, but his death, cleared them in order to come to the Father, through Yeshua, because of everything he did "to pay for all sins of the world."



Yes, it is really all people... People always try to jiggle around this, and say you gotta believe first, was the death of the Lord Jesus christ death not justified in paying for sin, and reconciling the world unto Yahavah?


This is why in the original post: It's adamant to understand how everyone is totally responsible for themselves... God's glory is seen in the heavens, just as much as his handwork looking at the skys, stars, moon, sun, and etc... the firmament.

There is only one way, through the gate which Yeshua, stands by. And Yeshua made it possible for all people to get to Yahavah now...

Yes, mankind must indeed believe in Christ or just as He has said "ye shall die in your sins."

It's true that the atoning blood of Christ is the propitiation for all sin. What Christ tells those who are of this world is also true.

John 8:21-24 (KJV) Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The way to reconcile these apparent contradictory statements is by understanding how the Bible is using the word ALL. Christ is the propitiation for all sin, NOT without exception, but without distinction. Christ is the propitiation for both Gentiles who believe as well as Jews who believe in Him. Christ did not come to make atonement for only Jews, but for people of every nation of the earth. And if we believe in Him our sins have been forgiven, but if we remain in unbelief we shall die in our sins, because the sins of those in unbelief have not been atoned for.

 

[Lambano]

Let's not conflate the terms "Justification" and "Reconciliation".

"Justification" is a forensic term meaning the Judge has ruled in your favor. "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith..." (Romans 3:28)

"Reconciliation" is a relational term referring to the restoration of a busted relationship. Restoring a broken relationship requires actions by both sides. "18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore (people) on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God." (2 Corinthians 5:18-20)

 

[keithr]

This is why in the original post: It's adamant to understand how everyone is totally responsible for themselves... God's glory is seen in the heavens, just as much as his handwork looking at the skys, stars, moon, sun, and etc... the firmament.

Nobody is righteous, and nobody by themselves seeks God through Jesus. Our faith is a work of God in us.

Romans 3:10-12 (WEB):

(10) As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one.​

(11) There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God.​

(12) They have all turned away. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not so much as one.”​

As I quoted in my previous post, this time from the ESV:

Ephesians 2:8

(8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,​

 

[keithr]

I don't believe in a Gospel age. I believe that the ending of the Age of the time of the Gospels in reaches the whole world (of that specific lands which were to be reached "their world at that time."

The end of the acceptable time for sacrifice, the end of the preaching of the Gospel, will be when Jesus returns for his Church/bride:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (WEB):

(15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.​

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

 

[Lambano]

Ephesians 2:8
(8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Oh, this again.

By the rules of Greek grammar, the "this" in Ephesians 2:8 CANNOT refer directly to "faith". Different genders. The gift of God is salvation through faith.

 

[rwb]

We are justified by the death of the Lord Jesus Christ in order to reach Yahavah. Our sins do not keep us away from him (except unbelief.) They were paid for. We decide if we near God or do not at all.

Let me share this with you and you share what you think Paul is saying here?

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

To answer by yes or no. Yes we are justified before Yahavah, before we have faith because of the death of Jesus Christ, and his rising again.

Again, this uses ALL as a way of including both Gentiles of faith and Jews of faith together. For ALL people regardless of ethnicity, the atoning blood of Christ cleanses all sin for all that believe in Him. We are justified by faith, and without faith that comes by hearing the Word of God we have not been justified through Christ.

 

[Windmill Charge]

Yes Jesus paid for All sins. The problem is the spirit dead do not respond to offers of life.
Eph2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

It is God who saves us, not a dead sinner coming to live by its self.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Did you even read the original post? Go back and try that. You’ll find out really quick. I’m not joking with the title…

I read your whole post. It appears you do not know what the terms mean.

If one is justified before god the Father- they have been declared innocent and are saved.

Sanctification is th eprocess of making one holy or set apart for Gods service.

Justification is conditional on receiving christ. It is not simply given to all men.

I encourage you to do a word study of the passage, you will find some very interesting twists.

I also encourage you to do a topical study of justification.

 

[MatthewG]

It seems people just are confused on what 'saved' means.



Listen, I know a lot of you believe I am wrong, but again, the post clearly shows that Jesus Christ death, was justification for coming to Yahavah.

It's not Justification in getting into the KINGDOM.
However, it's justification in having their sins taken care of..

Sorry if you guys have a problem with that, I wasn't expecting so many responses. I know many of you are older than me but let me just tell you, I am not gonna listen... (because it will continue to move and overrun the thread, with the people who want to "debate")

This is not I repeat "not the debate forum."

I stand firm on what has been shared...

@Ronald Nolette, @rwb, @keithr



Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

I'm not someone who believes Jesus Christ is coming again, I believe he already came, and that changes the whole dynamic of "traditional teachings." And it's not anything new... or demonic... it might be deemed Heresy but all Heresy is a difference of opinion. And there are many other people who also believe Jesus had come back as well, so I know I am not alone in my stance nor do I expect people to accept this stance.