The world has been “made right” in front of God.

[JunChosen]

Is man able to forgive sins? Yes. Yeshua, has paid for all sins for all people.

This is not true! Man can forgive atrocities done unto him by other man but NEVER the sins against God.
Another false comment you've made is that, Jesus paid for all sins for all people. The truth is He ONLY saved His people from their sins (Matthew 1:21).

This helps with Yahavah reonciling the world unto himself, in which he is no longer mad at people in what they have done,

If the above is true, then it is obvious there will no one be in hell or in the lake of fire. The opposite is true, however.

Matthew G

what matters at the end of cessation of human life, where was the heart at in that looking towards Yahavah, and seeking in faith. We ourselves will never know that answer. However, God will.

1) "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

2) "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God." (Romans 3:10-11).

To God Be The Glory

 

[MatthewG]

This is not true! Man can forgive atrocities done unto him by other man but NEVER the sins against God.
Another false comment you've made is that, Jesus paid for all sins for all people. The truth is He ONLY saved His people from their sins (Matthew 1:21).

Hello JunChosen,

All sins have been taken care of by Jesus Christ, the only sin that is claimed to be unforgivable is simply "suggesting that the holy spirit of Yahavah is evil." It's not forgiven in this life, or the one to come. Of course, until a person changes their mind about those things, some suggest its impossible even for those who once tasted the holy spirit but turned away to come back. If you are going to quote scripture at this particular time, John wrote that Yeshua paid for the whole world sins, and not just the sins of his own people. There is even scripture about how Yahavah is the savior of the world (all men), and specially those who believe.

If the above is true, then it is obvious there will no one be in hell or in the lake of fire. The opposite is true, however.

Matthew G

what matters at the end of cessation of human life, where was the heart at in that looking towards Yahavah, and seeking in faith. We ourselves will never know that answer. However, God will.

I've never said that the lake of fire has ceased to exist, but I see it as a purposeful thing that is for Yahavahs purposes and is for cleaning away the darkness of human beings. Those who believe and have faith now today on earth go through this fire, where Yeshua is at the end of it with his angels. JunChosen, I am just sharing things I believe and overall see. I could be right, I could be wrong but my encouragement is for people to seek for Yahavah, and to see what the bible states. Jesus said which is easier to say, "your sins are forgiven, or take up your mat and go." I believe both things are easy to say, and are able to be done. Though many people still today forget that Yeshua has paid the price of sin and taken care of them. That doesn't mean I believe people should go out and indulge their sinful nature in hating, belittling, and hurting other people. I do believe people should think for themselves, and while I love the scripture, life is much more than just the scripture its about a spiritually filled and lived life, in and through the spirit of Christ living through you.

 

[keithr]

John 12:47-48 (WEB):

(47) If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn’t believe, I don’t judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.​

(48) He who rejects me, and doesn’t receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.​

Jesus' sacrifice has saved everyone from the wages of sin, which is death. After that we must believe in God and Jesus, and obey God's commands as best as we can - then we will be judged worthy of eternal life. Christians are judged in this first life after we have believed and until we die, and they will have a part in the first resurrection. All others will be judged after they have been resurrected depending on whether they believe and obey during Christ's 1,000 year reign (during which time Satan is bound and everyone will know the truth about God and Jesus). The same requirements, believing God and Jesus and obeying God's commandments, will be the same standard by which everyone will be judged. Those who fail the testing and judgement at the end of the millennial reign will suffer the punishment for those sins - a second death, which will be a permanent, eternal death, for there will not be a second saviour to pay for their sins and redeem their life again.

 

[Lizbeth]

Hello Lizbeth,

A second death could be a dying to the self in the afterlife. (Of course that is a subjective held view that may be right or may be wrong.)

My view is that this world will never end, but the world of the Jewish people in the Mosasic Age, did end. (Of course this is a subjectively held view that I believe is correct.) Can I ask you what is the point of having a never-ending Kingdom, if this world is going to end with people coming to the Lord Yeshua?

The bible says in more than one place that men are like the beasts that perish. And nature/creation itself teaches us about the tragic finality of death (apart from Christ). Seems to be a simple question of either mortality or immortality brother. In Christ and following Him we are seeking immortality as the bible says. We are to fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell (the word translated as hell is the Greek word geena , which refers to the burning refuse dump in the Valley of Hinnom where dead animal carcases and other refuse were taken and destroyed by fire). The Lord doesn't owe anyone immortality, but by His grace and through faith some will be saved and inherit immortality, ie, eternal life....while most people will perish like the beasts. All our bodies will perish in the grave, that is the first death....but the second death I believe is the destruction/death of the soul for those outside of Christ (those who are not hid in the cleft of the Rock/Christ who protects believers from the consuming fire of God.....believers will not be hurt by the second death because of being hid in Christ). The bible doesn't teach that there is a coming back from the second death....but all over the scriptures we are well-warned that the way to not end up there is through Christ and following Him on the narrow path and remaining in Him.

I agree that many things were fulfilled concerning Israel/Jerusalem........but there is a principle of to the Jew first, then the Gentile. The Jews were judged first, but now we are awaiting the judgment of the world/nations (Gentiles). We can see by the Matthew 24 passages that Jesus' prophetic words was a kind of a double layer prophecy....prophesying things concerning both Israel/Jerusalem..which was fulfilled in 70 AD...as well as intertwined with that He was prophesying of the judgment and end of the entire world (Gentile) as well.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @Lizbeth;

That’s a fine view for you to have. I don’t look at it all that way, that is the beautiful thing about freedom. I respect your view. I don’t have much to say concerning anything of your view as it’s not anything new that I haven’t heard before. Just hope you the best in your life and for your family. Take care.

 

[KUWN]

Those who fail the testing and judgement at the end of the millennial reign will suffer the punishment for those sins - a second death, which will be a permanent, eternal death, for there will not be a second saviour to pay for their sins and redeem their life again.

Your statement "Those who fail the testing and judgement at the end of the millennial reign will suffer the punishment for those sins" is not exactly accurate. Nobody will be judged for their sins since Christ paid the penalty for all sins, regardless of whether or not they believe (see below). In fact, all unbelievers have been redeemed. but that does not mean they are saved, it just means their sins have been paid for. See 2 Peter 2.1:

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

In another verse, you can see where a person's sins are not put on the person's account, but are transferred to Christ's account;
See 2 Cor 5.19: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.

 

[keithr]

Your statement "Those who fail the testing and judgement at the end of the millennial reign will suffer the punishment for those sins" is not exactly accurate. Nobody will be judged for their sins since Christ paid the penalty for all sins, regardless of whether or not they believe (see below). In fact, all unbelievers have been redeemed. but that does not mean they are saved, it just means their sins have been paid for. See 2 Peter 2.1:

Their sins have been paid for by Jesus, therefore God is justified in resurrecting everyone to life again. They will live during Christ's 1,000 year reign, during which time they will be taught truth and righteouness, and gradually restored to perfection. At the end of that period Satan is released and will be a final test - Revelation 20:7-8 (WEB):

(7) And after the thousand years, Satan will be released from his prison,​

(8) and he will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.​

They will be judged on whether or not they have come into harmony with the law of love. Those who have not (and therefore by definition will have sinned) will receive the punishment for sin - (the second) death. Before there can be a second death there has to be a second sin; before there is any second sin there is the second judgment; before there is any second judgment there is the second life. None can come under the sentence of the second death, pictured by Gehenna, until he has first gotten out from under the sentence of the first death, Adamic death.

At the close of the Millennium the servants of Satan will be willfully wicked and not merely ignorant, mislead, blinded or deceived, as so many now are. It will require all of the thousand years to demonstrate who are friends of truth and righteousness and who are their enemies. Revelation 20:12-15 (WEB):

(12) I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.​

(13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.​

(14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

(15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.​

 

[KUWN]

Their sins have been paid for by Jesus, therefore God is justified in resurrecting everyone to life again.

This does not follow. The payment for sins has nothing to do with salvation/justified. In other words, sins are not the basis of eternal condemnation. All unbelievers have been redeemed. Only believers are resurrected until the final judgment called the Great White Throne judgment and then unbelievers are resurrected, judged, and sent to the Lake of Fire.

People are saved during the Millennium by accepting Christ. This will be the message of the 144,000 and angels who present the gospel to unbelievers.

The rest of what you posted I can't follow. Sorry.

 

[Lizbeth]

Hello @Lizbeth;

That’s a fine view for you to have. I don’t look at it all that way, that is the beautiful thing about freedom. I respect your view. I don’t have much to say concerning anything of your view as it’s not anything new that I haven’t heard before. Just hope you the best in your life and for your family. Take care.

Hmm, should we respect someone's view or call it "fine" if we believe them to be wrong..? That would seem to be dishonest to me. We can respect a person as a person and respect their right to have their view and express it, without respecting their view.

I'm wondering why someone would start a thread and not be willing or interested to discuss their topic in light of God's word or answer questions about it? Seems like a lack of openness there for some reason.

Scripture (which cannot be broken as Jesus said) tells us that no man can see God and live......except they be hid in the cleft of the Rock. And at the coming of the Lord, (at which time the world will be judged and burned up according to 2 Peter 3).........the bible says EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM. So what happens to those who are not hid in Christ? As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man.....what happened to those who didn't enter into the ark?

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @Lizbeth,

Just because you think I’m wrong doesn’t effect salvation in the Lord Jesus, and having relationship with Yahavah, the LORD GOD. That’s where people do become wrong, and judgmental and even snooty towards others. Which means they have pride in what they believe in? Isn’t it? I love to believe that the victory has been had and that the end of the world already happened. Does that offend people? Absolutely, can they suggest I’m wrong? Absolutely. Does that mean I need to change my mind on my beliefs? Absolutely not. And don’t get me wrong I’m open to suggestions and ideas I’ve never thought off but when it comes to the end of the world. That was for the Jewish people, and that’s where I stand, gentiles were also part of that group within the destruction of Jerusalem which I believe was Yahavahs wrath upon the obstinate people who choose to actively go against Yahavah in that land which he had given them with all judgement concluded thereof. That’s not to say’s judgement still doesn’t happen as it most certainly does for all individuals who leave this life; of course I faithfully believe so.

 

[keithr]

This does not follow. The payment for sins has nothing to do with salvation/justified. In other words, sins are not the basis of eternal condemnation.

Romans 6:23

(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

We cannot be restored to life (eternal life) unless somebody pays the penalty of death for us. Jesus did that, by willingly dying for us. God was justified in restoring Jesus to life again because Jesus had not sinned; our sins were placed on him, but Jesus had not personally sinned. After Jesus had paid the penalty for everyone's sins, God is justified in restoring everyone to life again.

1 Corinthians 15:3

(3) For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,​

Romans 5:8-10

(8) But God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.​

(9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.​

(10) For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we will be saved by his life.​

Titus 2:13-14

(13) looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ;​

(14) who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works.​

Galatians 3:13

(13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,”​

1 Peter 1:18-19

(18) knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers,​

(19) but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ;​

Only believers are resurrected until the final judgment called the Great White Throne judgment and then unbelievers are resurrected, judged, and sent to the Lake of Fire.

A common misunderstanding. It does not make sense that Christ would set up a righteous kingdom and rule in righteousness and with a rod of iron for 1,000 years, and then quickly resurrect the majority of mankind that has ever lived only to immediately declare them all unworthy of life and to kill them all again. How would they benefit from Christ's reign? Who is Christ reigning over for 1,000 years? Christians are resurrected before the start of the 1,000 years reign (for they will be reigning with Jesus - Revelation 20:4), then everyone else that has ever died will be resurrected at the beginning of the 1,000 years reign. God has allowed 1,000 years for their learning and restitution to become perfect humans - Acts 3:20-23 (WEB):

(20) and that he may send Christ Jesus, who was ordained for you before,​

(21) whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets.​

(22) For Moses indeed said to the fathers, ‘The Lord God will raise up a prophet for you from among your brothers, like me. You shall listen to him in all things whatever he says to you.​

(23) It will be that every soul that will not listen to that prophet will be utterly destroyed from among the people.’​

Only at the end of the 1,000 years will they be tried and judged whether or not they are worthy of eternal life. Only then will they live again (live eternally), hence the comment, Revelation 20:5 (WEB):

(5) The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.​

[Scholars agree that the first part of verse 5 is an interpolation that probably crept into the text by accident in the fifth century; at first a marginal comment made by a reader expressive of his thought, later copied into the text by transcribers who failed to distinguish between the text and the comment.]

People are saved during the Millennium by accepting Christ.

Indeed. Just as Christians are saved during this Gospel Age. The only difference is that those that are called and accepted during the Gospel Age have a better resurrection and become sons of God (John 1:12 - "But as many as received him, to them gave he power [authority, right, privilege] to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"), resurrected as a new creation of spiritual beings, just as Jesus now is (1 John 3:2 - "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is"). But after the resurrection and rapture of the Church the opportunity to become members of the body of Christ and joint heirs with him will have come to an end. All non-Christians will have the opportunity of eternal life as humans, living on the Earth.

Revelation 11:15 (WEB):

(15) The seventh angel sounded, and great voices in heaven followed, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ. He will reign forever and ever!”​

The rest of what you posted I can't follow. Sorry.

There's no need to apologise. We're all trying to learn the true understanding of the Scriptures. It takes time (a lifetime!).

 

[KUWN]

God is justified in restoring everyone to life again.

I answered this in my post. Eternal life is given only to those who accept Christ as Savior. BTW, the death mentioned in this context (the wages of sin) is physical death. This is true for believers and unbelievers. And, sin is not the basis of eternal condemnation. The removal of sins does not equal salvation.

You wrote:
Who is Christ reigning over for 1,000 years? Christians are resurrected before the start of the 1,000 years reign (for they will be reigning with Jesus - Revelation 20:4), then everyone else that has ever died will be resurrected at the beginning of the 1,000 years reign

Only believers will start the 1,000 year reign. And those in their natural bodies will have children. By the end of the Millennium millions and millions of unbelievers (those born during the Mill) will join with Satan to fight Christ one last time before he is thrown in to the Lake of Fire along with all the unbelievers of all time. There is no such thing as a resurrected unbeliever entering the Mill.

One reason we disagree so much is because I am a Dispensationalist. The best way for us to discuss this is first of all discuss our method of Interpretation, i.e., how we interpret the various genres in the Bible.

I am very well read on Dispensationalism and non-Dispensationalism, and I have not come across some of the statements you make. Anyway, I think I will politely bow out of this thread. Have a wonderful day

 

[Lizbeth]

Hello @Lizbeth,

Just because you think I’m wrong doesn’t effect salvation in the Lord Jesus, and having relationship with Yahavah, the LORD GOD. That’s where people do become wrong, and judgmental and even snooty towards others. Which means they have pride in what they believe in? Isn’t it? I love to believe that the victory has been had and that the end of the world already happened. Does that offend people? Absolutely, can they suggest I’m wrong? Absolutely. Does that mean I need to change my mind on my beliefs? Absolutely not. And don’t get me wrong I’m open to suggestions and ideas I’ve never thought off but when it comes to the end of the world. That was for the Jewish people, and that’s where I stand, gentiles were also part of that group within the destruction of Jerusalem which I believe was Yahavahs wrath upon the obstinate people who choose to actively go against Yahavah in that land which he had given them with all judgement concluded thereof. That’s not to say’s judgement still doesn’t happen as it most certainly does for all individuals who leave this life; of course I faithfully believe so.

Do you believe the second coming of Christ has already happened then? Really I have no idea why/how you believe what you believe since you don't seem interested in explaining and looking at scriptures together. Did your beliefs come from the Lord, through scripture or from man?

What might be a new idea to you is to consider the possibility that everything was to the Jew first then the Gentile. Not only was the gospel to the Jew first then the Gentile (world), but judgment is for the Jew first, then the Gentile (world).

Rom 2:8-10

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile



Act 17:29-32

Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.



Rom 3:3-6

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. (this is speaking of men accusing/judging God of being unrighteous in His judgments)

But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?



It sure seems to me that we need to look at the glass half full, not half empty. Until the light and word of God came there was no real notion of eternal life. Men were in darkness. There was only death/mortality for mankind to look forward to. This is why the gospel is good news because through receiving and having faith in Christ some will receive eternal life/immortality. That most will perish through remaining in their mortality is seen as an accusation of unrighteousness towards God, when actually judgment/justice is a righteous thing, not unrighteous, and the marvel is that any will be saved at all. What is man that God is mindful of us? In the days of Noah He even regretted creating man because they were so evil. It's not as if He owes anybody anything.

 

[keithr]

Until the light and word of God came there was no real notion of eternal life.

That's not correct - Jesus said, John 5:39 (WEB):

(39) “You search the Scriptures [Old Testament], because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me.​

They would have read verses of Scripture that spoke of eternal life, such as:

Psalms 133:3 (WEB):

(3) like the dew of Hermon, that comes down on the hills of Zion: for there Yahweh gives the blessing, even life forever more.​

Daniel 12:2 (WEB):

(2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

 

[Lizbeth]

That's not correct - Jesus said, John 5:39 (WEB):

(39) “You search the Scriptures [Old Testament], because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me.​

They would have read verses of Scripture that spoke of eternal life, such as:

Psalms 133:3 (WEB):

(3) like the dew of Hermon, that comes down on the hills of Zion: for there Yahweh gives the blessing, even life forever more.​

Daniel 12:2 (WEB):

(2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

Yes, the Jews had been given the word of God and the light of it, but prior to that the vast majority of fallen mankind had no notion and no hope of heaven/eternal life.

 

[MatthewG]

Do you believe the second coming of Christ has already happened then? Really I have no idea why/how you believe what you believe since you don't seem interested in explaining and looking at scriptures together. Did your beliefs come from the Lord, through scripture or from man?

What might be a new idea to you is to consider the possibility that everything was to the Jew first then the Gentile. Not only was the gospel to the Jew first then the Gentile (world), but judgment is for the Jew first, then the Gentile (world).

Rom 2:8-10

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile



Act 17:29-32

Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.



Rom 3:3-6

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. (this is speaking of men accusing/judging God of being unrighteous in His judgments)

But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?



It sure seems to me that we need to look at the glass half full, not half empty. Until the light and word of God came there was no real notion of eternal life. Men were in darkness. There was only death/mortality for mankind to look forward to. This is why the gospel is good news because through receiving and having faith in Christ some will receive eternal life/immortality. That most will perish through remaining in their mortality is seen as an accusation of unrighteousness towards God, when actually judgment/justice is a righteous thing, not unrighteous, and the marvel is that any will be saved at all. What is man that God is mindful of us? In the days of Noah He even regretted creating man because they were so evil. It's not as if He owes anybody anything.

Hello @Lizbeth,

The simple reason is because I can. Yes I believe the second coming has happened. I don’t need to be examined by anyone, the LORD GOD can do that just fine.

 

[Lizbeth]

Hello @Lizbeth,

The simple reason is because I can. Yes I believe the second coming has happened. I don’t need to be examined by anyone, the LORD GOD can do that just fine.

ok then......so far (like pulling teeth, in trying to look into this topic and also understand where you're coming from), you believe the end of the world has already taken place, that God has already rooted out of His kingdom all who do evil and are unbelieving, gathered the righteous wheat "into the barn" and bundled the tares who were already judged/burned......and that Jesus has already returned and judged not only the Jews/Israel, but the whole world (meaning the Gentiles) too. I'm with you half way. Just that I believe those things were to the Jew first in the end of the old covenant, then will be to the Gentile in the end of the greater world. (and I believe we should consider whether Israel will be judged also a second time...double unto her double etc....but that is a topic for another time.)

We are to test all things. So I don't believe your words or anyone's words are above being examined. Even prophets are to be weighed and tested by their fellow prophets when they give a prophetic word. And we are to be like the Bereans who searched the scriptures to see if things that were being taught were in accordance with the word. Someone raised an objection to something I said earlier and I didn't complain.

Anyway, you apparently don't want to dialogue with me, so goodbye for now.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @Lizbeth

Good, it’s because of allowing you freedom. I don’t believe anyone should believe me. Test all things and seek for the truth yourself. All the best. It's not because I do not want to dialogue its because I do not believe you would ever move your position of believing that Yeshua is still to come in the future. That is fine with me for you to continue to believe that, even though I do not, because I believe it happened in the past. Neither one of our views is anything new or different from whats been thought of in the past. That is the only difference between you and me, I believe that the return happened in the past, and you believe it is to happen in the future. Neither one of those views affects the salvation of the Gospel of Christ, and the ability to have a relationship with Yahavah. The views do effect ones personal world view, and that is about all that it does effect. Escatology plays a big role in those categories, and if you aren't gonna believe me, whats the point in dialoguing? That would defeat the purpose of keeping peace and harmony in love with one another by abiding in Christ and allowing Yahavah/God, to deal with us both individually. Most people want people to be "corrected." I am not going to fall in line with whatever one thinks or wants me to believe. That would take away from my liberty in the Lord Yeshua, as you have liberty in the Lord Yeshua...

If you don't understand that, then I am very sorry.

 

[keithr]

I believe that the return happened in the past,

The apostle Paul wrote that he had direct communication from Jesus about Jesus' return for the Church - 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (WEB):

(15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.​

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

and Jesus said - Matthew 24:29-31 (WEB):

(29) But immediately after the oppression of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;​

(30) and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.​

(31) He will send out his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​

There is no record of those things having happened yet. If they have already happened, then you have missed out - you are not one of the elect, you are not a member of the body of Christ, you will never be changed to be a spirit being with immortality, and you do not have a home in heaven prepared for you by Jesus. If Jesus' return is in the past and you were a true Christian, then you would now be with Jesus in heaven. If it happened before you were born then you would never have had the opportunity to become a member of the body of Christ, for the whole body/bride of Christ will have already been completed and caught up to be with Jesus - it will be too late to be baptised into Jesus' death (Romans 6:3).

John 4:23-24 (WEB):

(23) But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to be his worshipers.​

(24) God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”​

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @keithr,

That’s why I believe faithfully it did happen. I have no proof. Don’t need proof, to have faith. God either exist or he doesn’t. It’s up to you what you choose to believe concerning those Bible verses it cuts a lot of things out when we just quote here or there and not the whole. It’s like making a collage out of magazines or something it’s only part of a whole and a hole that has a part missing isn’t complete. People may decide how they view it, it’s not up to me to correct to you, that’s Gods part. So there is not much weight on my shoulders when I say I believe Jesus came already, I believe faithfully, even with no proof and it helps me in my life greatly compared to the fear and dread I use to have. All the best in Christ Jesus.