"The word was a god"?

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Matthias

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“In the begynnyge was the worde, and the worde was wyth God: and God was the worde. The same was in the begynnyg wyth God. All things were made by it, & wythout it, was made nothynge that was made. In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men, and the lyght shyneth in the darcknes, and the darcknes comprehended it not.”

(John 1:1-5, The Great Bible, 1539)

John In the begynnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God, and God was ye worde.

The first authorized translation of the Bible in English.

Great Bible - Wikipedia
 
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farouk

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Nothing more that the Jehova's Witness BLASPHEMOUS CORRUPTION of the Scriptures. Their "Jesus" is rather different than the REAL Jesus, making their worthless Religious system of salvation by WORKS of no value whatsoever. THEY added the textually false "A" to reinforce their own corrupt theology.
@Bob Carabbio The Deity of Christ is gloriously and strongly present in Scripture.
 

Webers_Home

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For a home-spun, Bible-based religion whose origin is relatively recent, the
Watchtower Society has done pretty well for itself. Beginning with one man
shortly after the American Civil War, it currently numbers approximately 8.7
million evangelical members spread out in approximately 118,000
congregations worldwide. The grand total-- evangelicals and non
evangelicals --is estimated to be something like 20 million.

My first encounter with a Watchtower Society agent (a.k.a. Jehovah's
Witness) occurred in 1969. At the time I was young and inexperienced; and
thus assumed that the missionary coming down my dad's driveway was a
typical Christian.

But when I talked this over with an elder; he became alarmed; and urged
me to read a little book titled "30 Years A Watchtower Slave" by William J.
Schnell; whom the Society at one time demonized as an agent of Satan. I
would not be surprised if it still does.

After getting my eyes opened by Mr. Schnell's book, I was afterwards
steered towards another book titled "Kingdom Of The Cults" by Walter
Martin. No doubt the Society demonizes Mr. Martin too.

Around late 1980, my wife and I attended a series of lectures sponsored by
a local church titled "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses". The speaker
(call him Pete) was an ex JW who had been in the Watchtower Society
system for near three decades before terminating his involvement; so he
knew the twists and turns of its doctrines pretty good.

Pete didn't train us to hammer the Society's missionaries in a debate
because even if you best them scripture for scripture, they will not give up
on the Society. Their mind's unflinching premise is that the Society is right
even when it appears to be totally wrong. They are thoroughly convinced
that the Society is the voice of God, while your voice has no more validity
than that of a squeaky little gerbil.

Later on, I read a book titled "Why I Left The Jehovah's Witnesses" by Ted
Dencher. I also read the Society's little brown book titled "Reasoning From
The Scriptures".

(This was all before the internet and the ready volume of information
available online, e.g. YouTube.)

From all that vetting, study, and training I quickly discovered that although
the Watchtower Society uses many of Christianity's standard terms and
phrases, those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in the
JW mind than what you'd expect because the Society has re-defined the
meanings of those terminologies somewhat similar to how the CDC has
redefined the definition of vaccines to accommodate the rather disappointing
performance of the Covid 19 shots.

So your first challenge with Jehovah's Witness teachings is to scale the
language barrier. That by itself is an Herculean task because you'll not only
be up against a tangle of semantics, but also a Jumanji world of twisted
scriptures, double speak, humanistic reasoning, rationalizing, and clever
sophistry.
_
 
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Matthias

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As I was sitting down to eat lunch I happened to read (Today In Christian History) that Richard Taverner died on this date in 1545. What a coincidence.

Who is Richard Taverner?

Richard Taverner, The Lives of the Puritans, Benjamin Brook, Christian Classics books at BibleStudyTools.com

And, from the 1540 edition, here is his translation of the prologue in John’s Gospel.

“In the begynnge was the worde, and the word was with God, and God was the worde. The same was in the begynnyng with God. All thynges were made by it, and wythoute it was made nothynge that was made. In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men, and the lyght shyneth in darkenes, and the darkenes comprehended it not.”

(The Epistles and Gospelles with a brief Postyl upon the same.)
 

tigger 2

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Weber’s_Home posted:

It's a common Watchtower rule of translation that when a Greek noun is
modified by the Greek article "ho" then the noun becomes unique; for
example ho theós pertains to the one true God while theós unmodified
usually pertains to nondescript gods.
............................................................

Sorry I'm so slow, I'm old, and we are undergoing a medical crisis.

As I've tried to explain to ByGrace, in the Gospels at least, the nominative theos when unmodified (prepositions, genitives, etc.) will have the article when it intends God.
 

tigger 2

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#300 ByGrace:

"And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.” This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:16-18)

The Jews unlike some, are very clear on their understanding of what Jesus is saying, that He is EQUAL WITH GOD THE FATHER.

ἴσον, is of absoulte [sic] essential unity, as much as GOD as the Father is GOD

Now prove Jesus wrong!
….………………………………………..

Jesus did not say this. The Jews said that Jesus was making himself equal to God because he was “breaking the sabbath” and calling God his own father. He was not breaking the sabbath, but only restrictions added by the Jews. And calling God your father is certainly not a claim to be equal with God.

But since the Jews were saying this, it matters little anyway. They were looking for ways to get rid of Jesus.
 
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tigger 2

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I have made two posts to ByGrace which he continues to call lies.

One was about a number of mostly trinitarian statements that John 1:1c literally is "and the word was a god" but I made it clear that they don't like that translation and continue to teach "the Word was God" anyway. - post #280.

ByGrace posted some photocopies of these trinitarians stating that they believed John 1:1c means the Word is God. How this makes me a liar is unclear, but he continues bellowing "Liar, Liar" anyway.

I also posted a number of quotes from recognized trinitarian NT grammarians showing some grammatical exceptions to nominative nouns using or not using the article - post #282.

By Grace again cries "Liar, Liar." But I have carefully given proper citations to all of them.

So, since he at one time attempted to find examples to disprove my study, I will try that approach again:

A careful study of John’s grammar and usage shows that all the other clauses which are truly parallel to John 1:1c. (unmodified anarthrous count noun used as predicate noun before its verb) are indefinite:

H. ....1. John 4:9 (a) - indefinite ("a Jew")
H,W...2. John 4:19 - indefinite ("a prophet")
H,W...3. John 6:70 - indefinite ("a devil"/"a slanderer")
H,W...4. John 8:44 (a) - indefinite ("a mankiller/murderer")
H,W...5. John 8:48 - indefinite ("a Samaritan")
H,W...6. John 9:24 - indefinite ("a sinner")
H,W...7. John 10:1 - indefinite ("a thief and a plunderer")
H,W...8. John 10:33 - indefinite ("a man")
H,W...9. John 18:35 - indefinite ("a Jew")
H,W...10. John 18:37 (a) - indefinite ("a king")
[H,W..11. John 18:37 (b) - indefinite ("a king") - Received Text and 1991 Byzantine text]
H,W
12. Jn 8:44 (b) - indefinite (“a liar”)
H,W 13. Jn 9:8 (a) - indefinite (“a beggar”)
H,W 14. Jn 9:17 - indefinite (“a prophet”)
H,W 15. Jn 9:25 - indefinite (“a sinner”)
H,W 16. Jn 10:13 - indefinite (“a hireling/hired hand”)
H,W 17. Jn 12:6 - indefinite (“a thief”)
18. 1 Jn 4:20 - indefinite (“a liar”)

….…………………

H: Also found in Philip B. Harner's list of "Colwell Constructions"
W: Also found in Daniel B. Wallace's list of "Colwell Constructions"

Therefore, the probable definition for John 1:1c is also indefinite: “a god.”

If you can find any others in John's writings that show me mistaken, please do so
 
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Webers_Home

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in the Gospels at least, the nominative theos when unmodified (prepositions,
genitives, etc.) will have the article when it intends God.

Well; I'm not an expert with the koiné Greek language, but According to Dr.
Archibald T. Robertson's "Grammar Of The Greek New Testament", page
767: in regards to nouns in the predicate; the article is not essential to
speech. In other words: when theόs is in the predicate, ho can be either
used, or not used, without making any real difference.

So then; a translator's decision whether to capitalize either of the two theόs
in John 1:1 or not to capitalize them, is entirely arbitrary.

Of course the Society prefers that The Word be a lower case god because
that spelling is agreeable with their version of his status; whereas regular
Christians prefer the upper case because that spelling is agreeable with their
version of The Word's status; while in reality, either spelling is acceptable.


BTW: The Society is inconsistent with its application of the "ho" rule. For
example John 1:18 and John 20:17 where the Society translates theós in
upper case though it be not modified by ho.


FYI: For those unaware: when the Witnesses find themselves unable to
refute your Greek sources, they will attempt to put you on the defensive
with an ad hominem that goes something like this: Are you trained in Greek?

Don't let them get away with that tactic. Hold your ground by insisting that
they attack your Greek sources instead of you. After all; they, like us, are
students relying upon the competence of others rather than upon ourselves.
_
 
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tigger 2

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Well; I'm not an expert with the koiné Greek language, but According to Dr.
Archibald T. Robertson's "Grammar Of The Greek New Testament", page
767: in regards to nouns in the predicate; the article is not essential to
speech. In other words: when theόs is in the predicate, ho can be either
used, or not used, without making any real difference.

So then; a translator's decision whether to capitalize either of the two theόs
in John 1:1 or not to capitalize them, is entirely arbitrary.

Of course the Society prefers that The Word be a lower case god because
that spelling is agreeable with their version of his status; whereas regular
Christians prefer the upper case because that spelling is agreeable with their
version of The Word's status; while in reality, either spelling is acceptable.


BTW: The Society is inconsistent with its application of the "ho" rule. For
example John 1:18 and John 20:17 where the Society translates theós in
upper case though it be not modified by ho.


FYI: For those unaware: when the Witnesses find themselves unable to
refute your Greek sources, they will attempt to put you on the defensive
with an ad hominem that goes something like this: Are you trained in Greek?

Don't let them get away with that tactic. Hold your ground by insisting that
they attack your Greek sources instead of you. After all; they, like us, are
students relying upon the competence of others rather than upon ourselves.

1. Robertson is incorrect in this aspect. Read my study if you honestly want to know why. Examining the Trinity: DEFinite John 1:1c or Examining the Trinity

2. Jn 1:18 has an accusative noun (theon) instead of the nominative (theos) we are discussing. And John 20:17 also uses the accusative, and furthermore they are modified by a genitive which causes even nominative nouns to be used or not. see post 282 above.

3. I don't care if you're trained in Greek, although it might be helpful.
 

Keiw

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God the Father says to WORSHIP Jesus Christ in Hebrews 1.6

God the Father addresses Jesus Christ as God in verse 8

In verses 10-12 the Father tells Jesus that He is the actual Creator of the universe

Jesus Christ IS Almighty God YHWH


There are 5 meanings from Greek to English for proskenaue--1) worship to God, 2) obesiance to a king 3) honor to a judge, plus 2 others. It means bow and kiss the feet. When one looks at facts, they find this-Psalm 45:7--The Israelite religion knew 100% the Messiah has a God, and is not God, thus did not bow to worship Jesus, they bowed in obesiance to their king. Errors in trinity translation to fit false council teachings translated worship to Jesus. The only translating in existence was catholicism translating when the protestants translated. There are many errors in your altered versions of Gods word. They contradict Jesus teachings.
There was a translation by a greek scholar in 1822 comparing Greek to English of the NT--a god small g in the last line at John 1:1 was proved to be correct. Rejected by all using error filled translations because it exposes their religions as false.
 
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Keiw

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in John 1:6, it says, "There was a man sent from God", in the Greek it reads, "θεοῦ", where there is no article used, "τοῦ θεοῦ". Why not translate this as, "There was a man sent from god"? WHY only when it applies to Jesus Christ, does the meaning change?

in 1 Cor 10:9 Paul says, "We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents"

This is directly from Numbers chapter 21:6

"Then Yahweh sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died"

Clear that Jesus Christ IS YAHWEH!

You cannot fight aginst the Truth of the Bible!


The LORD(YHWH) said to my Lord( Jesus) proves he is not YHWH. Jesus never got LORD all capitols--That doesnt belong in the OT anyways. By satans will men removed-YHWh from the OT and put-GOD or LORD all capitols in its place. They had no right to alter what God inspired in his written word. Every translation on earth with the name removed is an altered translation by satans will to mislead. All using those translations are being mislead to support satans will over Gods will. 0 doubt in all creation-LOOK.
 

PinSeeker

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it is the ONLY way that those who oppose the TRUTH of the Bible, can continue in their LIES, is to keep on LYING and they convince themselves that they are "right"! The TRUTH from the Bible EXPOSES their LIES. I notice that @Aunty Jane, who also is a believer of these LIES, gives a "like" to the LIES of @tigger 2 !
Hm. Well, rather than lies, I would just attribute it to spiritual blindness, ByGraceThroughFaith. And argue as you might, even as cogently and as plainly as can possibly be, you will not be able to open their eyes. Only God, by the Father's will and the working of the Holy Spirit in their heart, can make the blind to see. Our job is to proclaim, to preach Jesus and Him crucified, with grace, and let the Spirit work as He may (or may not).

You know, you may have this in your "arsenal," so to speak, but in Genesis 15, God makes His covenant with Abram (who God renamed Abraham in Genesis 17). You know the story ~ Abram gathered a heifer, a female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a pigeon, and halved them, all except for the birds, all according to how a covenant was made. And then, instead of the two parties to the covenant (God and Abram) walking between the halves, each saying, in effect, "If I don't fulfill my end of the covenant, what has been done to these animals will happen to me," God caused a deep sleep to fall on Abram, and He walked alone between the animal halves, and in effect was saying, "If I don't fulfill my end of the covenant, this will be My fate, and also, if you don't fulfill your end of the covenant, this is what will happen to Me. Well, we know what happens eventually: Israel didn't keep her end of the covenant perfectly (or anywhere close), and God, as promised, paid the price ~ in the Person of Jesus, Who laid down His life for us, even became cursed for us by hung on a tree.

To me, this is incontrovertible proof that Jesus is God. But there are so many things:
  • Jesus says that He Himself is Israel's light, protection, and sustenance in John 8 in the same terms as YHVH was Israel's light (pillar of fire), protection (pillar of cloud), and sustenance during the exodus...
  • Jesus assigns Himself the name of God from Exodus 3:14 in John 8:58...
  • YHVH is the Shepard of Psalm 23, and Jesus proclaims Himself the Good Shephard in John 10...
The list goes on; you know all this. Let them deny it; it's not up to us to "win," and thanks be to God for that.

Grace and peace to you!
 

Aunty Jane

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Well, rather than lies, I would just attribute it to spiritual blindness, ByGraceThroughFaith. And argue as you might, even as cogently and as plainly as can possibly be, you will not be able to open their eyes. Only God, by the Father's will and the working of the Holy Spirit in their heart, can make the blind to see. Our job is to proclaim, to preach Jesus and Him crucified, with grace, and let the Spirit work as He may (or may not).
But of course, you understand that this works both ways.....what if it’s the ignorant masses (who are not encouraged to study scripture for themselves) who swallow every teaching that comes out of Christendom’s divided “church” system? What if Christendom is the mirror image of first century Judaism? God’s “people” were in a deplorable spiritual condition when Jesus arrived on the scene in the first century to present himself to them as their messiah. They had ‘simmered’ under corrupt leadership for centuries and virtually nothing they taught, even though they claimed it was from the Hebrew Scriptures, was correct. (Matthew 15:7-9)

Jesus did not have a good word to say about those wicked men. (Matthew 23) They conspired against Jesus out of pure hatred and spite, to eliminate this thorn in their side. They managed to convince the majority back then to justify the murder of their own messiah.....they were so convinced that Jesus was a fake, that they cursed themselves and their children with his blood. (Matthew 27:25) Do you not think that the devil can repeat what he accomplished back then? He has no new tricks...they are all tried and tested.

So, what about today? Is it the majority who will pass the final judgment? What did Jesus say?
Matthew 7:13-14...
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (ESV)
Why are “few” on the road to life? Why is “the gate”, (the entryway onto the road to life) “narrow” and why is “the way hard”?

Jesus warned us that his true disciples would be hated for the same reasons that he was.....

“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. 21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.” (John 15:18-21 ESV)

They would do this because Jesus said they “do not know him who sent me”.
The truth is, JW’s do not worship Christendom’s god because we do not recognise him as the God of Jesus Christ.
Jesus also said that some would listen, just as they did in the first century, but by and large, the same situation exists today when we are expecting Jesus’ “coming as judge” of all mankind.....especially of those who have misrepresented him to the world.....the majority of whom believe that he is the Almighty.

I guess we need to do the math....“wheat and weeds” are all God sees.....he does not see denominations, but recognises his own by how they conduct themselves and how well they obey the teachings of his son.....all of them, not just the convenient ones. They would also be in full agreement with no divisions among them. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

God, as promised, paid the price ~ in the Person of Jesus, Who laid down His life for us, even became cursed for us by hung on a tree.

To me, this is incontrovertible proof that Jesus is God. But there are so many things:
  • Jesus says that He Himself is Israel's light, protection, and sustenance in John 8 in the same terms as YHVH was Israel's light (pillar of fire), protection (pillar of cloud), and sustenance during the exodus...
  • Jesus assigns Himself the name of God from Exodus 3:14 in John 8:58...
  • YHVH is the Shepard of Psalm 23, and Jesus proclaims Himself the Good Shephard in John 10...
Well, I see no such “incontrovertible proof” at all in that. God “sent his only begotten son”, not Himself to pay the price to redeem Adam’s children. (John 3:16)

The reason why Yahweh could not pay the ransom demanded is because he didn’t have to. God is an immortal, which means that he cannot die. The son of God was a spirit being, created by his Father as a unique creature.....the only one of his kind. Only this Son was a direct creation of his Father. All creation after that was produced “through” the agency of this special personage, including all that exists in the spirit realm. (Colossians 1:15-17)

Perhaps you would like to address the points raised in post #294 because the most vocal poster here proved that he was unable to answer them. I have chosen to ignore this person as he is a poor excuse for a defender of his faith, choosing instead to resort to childish name calling. Discussion on an adult level is surely a better way to communicate our beliefs....?
 
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Aunty Jane

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You can rob me. You can starve me. You can beat me. You can kill me….
just don’t BORE me!
LOL...IOW...you don't really want to know. You've made up your mind and nothing will move you.....that is just as it should be.
ok


We are all telling God and his appointed judge exactly who we really are, so that he can separate the "wheat from the weeds".....the "sheep from the goats"......imagine the surprises when Jesus hands down his judgment....its final....no excuses will be accepted. (Matthew 7:21-23)

What we decide has eternal consequences, so if you are sure of your position, then let's just hope its the right one....remember though, that in a world ruled by the devil, (1 John 5:19) nothing is as it appears to be. The Jews were dead set certain that what the Pharisees taught them was the truth...they staked their life on it, cursing themselves and their children with Jesus' blood. (Matthew 27:25)

History repeats because people never learn the lessons from the past.
Satan is not called a 'deceiver' for nothing. You think he can't fool the majority?
what
He already has.....
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Hm. Well, rather than lies, I would just attribute it to spiritual blindness, ByGraceThroughFaith. And argue as you might, even as cogently and as plainly as can possibly be, you will not be able to open their eyes. Only God, by the Father's will and the working of the Holy Spirit in their heart, can make the blind to see. Our job is to proclaim, to preach Jesus and Him crucified, with grace, and let the Spirit work as He may (or may not).

You know, you may have this in your "arsenal," so to speak, but in Genesis 15, God makes His covenant with Abram (who God renamed Abraham in Genesis 17). You know the story ~ Abram gathered a heifer, a female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a pigeon, and halved them, all except for the birds, all according to how a covenant was made. And then, instead of the two parties to the covenant (God and Abram) walking between the halves, each saying, in effect, "If I don't fulfill my end of the covenant, what has been done to these animals will happen to me," God caused a deep sleep to fall on Abram, and He walked alone between the animal halves, and in effect was saying, "If I don't fulfill my end of the covenant, this will be My fate, and also, if you don't fulfill your end of the covenant, this is what will happen to Me. Well, we know what happens eventually: Israel didn't keep her end of the covenant perfectly (or anywhere close), and God, as promised, paid the price ~ in the Person of Jesus, Who laid down His life for us, even became cursed for us by hung on a tree.

To me, this is incontrovertible proof that Jesus is God. But there are so many things:
  • Jesus says that He Himself is Israel's light, protection, and sustenance in John 8 in the same terms as YHVH was Israel's light (pillar of fire), protection (pillar of cloud), and sustenance during the exodus...
  • Jesus assigns Himself the name of God from Exodus 3:14 in John 8:58...
  • YHVH is the Shepard of Psalm 23, and Jesus proclaims Himself the Good Shephard in John 10...
The list goes on; you know all this. Let them deny it; it's not up to us to "win," and thanks be to God for that.

Grace and peace to you!

It is not spiritual blindness when someone CHANGES what is said, it is called being DISHONEST, to support your FALSE theories, as the JWs do.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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There are 5 meanings from Greek to English for proskenaue--1) worship to God, 2) obesiance to a king 3) honor to a judge, plus 2 others. It means bow and kiss the feet. When one looks at facts, they find this-Psalm 45:7--The Israelite religion knew 100% the Messiah has a God, and is not God, thus did not bow to worship Jesus, they bowed in obesiance to their king. Errors in trinity translation to fit false council teachings translated worship to Jesus. The only translating in existence was catholicism translating when the protestants translated. There are many errors in your altered versions of Gods word. They contradict Jesus teachings.
There was a translation by a greek scholar in 1822 comparing Greek to English of the NT--a god small g in the last line at John 1:1 was proved to be correct. Rejected by all using error filled translations because it exposes their religions as false.

firstly, the greater MAJORITY of English translations read WORSHIP in Hebrews 1:6.

secondly, the 1950 edition of the New World Translation, which I have, published by the Jehovah's Witnesses, reads, “And let all God's angels worship him”. WHY was this changed in later editions?

thirdly, The Emphatic Diaglott New Testament, which is also published by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, reads, “worship” (1864 and 1942, ed)

fourthly, the early Jews understood Psalm 45:7 as an address to Yahweh, as in the Jewish Aramaic Targum on the Psalm, the words are used as a direct address to Jehovah, “The throne of Thy majesty, O Jehovah, abideth for ever and ever.” (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges). The Hebrew scholar, Aquila, who published a Greek Version of the Old Testament, in the middle of the 2nd century A.D., translates the Hebrew, by the Greek, “ο θρονος σου θεε”, which is undoubtedly the vocative, “Your throne, O God”. (Fredrick Field, Origen Hexapla, vol. II, pp. 162-163). It is clear, that as early as the 2nd century, the Hebrew was understood as the vocative, and not the nominative.The New Testament by the Unitarian, Dr George Noyes, reads: “but of the Son: ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever”. Another Unitarian, Dr George Winer, also admits that in Hebrews 1:8, the vocative is to be understood.“The nominative (with the article) is sometimes used in an address, particularly in calling or commanding, thus taking the place of the vocative…H. i.8” (A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p.227). The Jehovah’s Witnesses, in both their Kingdom Interlinear New Testaments, 1969 and 1985, read in the English in the right-hand column, “God is your throne forever”. However, in the literal English translation under the Greek text, it reads: “the throne of you the God”. In the other Greek Interlinear that the JW’s publish, The Emphatic Diaglott, it is even more interesting. In verse 8, the literal English translation under the Greek text, it reads: “concerning but the Son; the throne of thee the God for the age [of the age]”. And in the English version in the right-hand column, “But to the Son, Thy Throne, O God is for the age”. And, for verse 9, “therefore thy God anointed thee, O God” (right-hand column). Both verses this translation has the vocative.

Fifthly, in John 1:1, When John writes, “καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος”, he does not mean that “ὁ λόγος”, is a “secondary god”, as suggested by Origen, and the Jehovah's Witnesses do. We have seen that the use and non use of the Greek article, does not denote a different meaning for “θεος”. What we have is a simple sentence structure. “Every sentence must contain two parts, a subject and a predicate. The subject is that of which something is stated. The predicate is that which is stated of the subject…A predicate noun or adjective seldom has the article” (William Goodwin, Greek Grammar, sec. 890, 956, pp.196, 208) “General rule, The subject has the article, while the predicate is without it” (William Jelf, A Grammar of the Greek Language, sec. 460, p.120). In John 1:1, the “subject” is no doubt, “The Word”, as it is about Him. The “predicate” in this last sentence, is “θεος”, which is a statement about the “subject”. John is here stating, that “The Word”, is “God”, as much as “The God”, besides (πρὸς) Whom He is. In John 8:54, Jesus says to the Jews, “εστιν ο πατηρ μου ο δοξαζων με ον υμεις λεγετε οτι θεος υμων εστιν”, which is literally, “it is My Father Who Glorifies Me, Who you say that God your He is”. Here, “ο πατηρ μου (My Father)” is the subject, and “θεος”, is the predicate. It is never translated as “god”, or “a god”. So why different in John 1:1, where the grammatical construction is the same?
 

Webers_Home

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Col 1:15 . . He is the firstborn of all creation

The Greek word translated "firstborn" in that verse is prototokos, which
never means created first; no, it always means born first. The correct Greek
word for created first is protoktistos.

* The average JW probably doesn't know the difference between prototokos
and protoktistos; and no doubt would care little about it anyway. To some;
born first and created first are one and the same.

The thing to note is that "firstborn" doesn't always refer to birth order. The
term also refers to rank and/or pay grade, so to speak, and as such is
transferable from an elder sibling to a younger, e.g. Esau to Jacob (Gen
25:23) Manasseh to Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and Reuben to Joseph (Gen
49:3-4, 1Chr 5:1).

The people of Israel are God's firstborn nation (Ex 4:22) and David is God's
firstborn king on earth (Ps 89:20-27). But neither David nor the people of
Israel are, or were, firstborns relative to creation; they were/are firstborns
only in their respective positions.

Ps 110:1, Matt 22:41-16, and Phil 2:8-11 all attest that David has been
placed under one of his sons; and that's because David's firstborn
superiority is limited to the Earth, whereas Christ's firstborn superiority is
unlimited. (Dan 7:13-14, John 3:35, 1Cor 15:27, Phil 2:8-11, Heb 1:2)
_
 

Aunty Jane

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Col 1:15 . . He is the firstborn of all creation
Yep..."firstborn of ALL creation" which means that he existed before the rest of creation. Logically then, he is part of that creation...the "first" of it.

The Greek word translated "firstborn" in that verse is prototokos, which
never means created first; no, it always means born first. The correct Greek
word for created first is protoktistos.

* The average JW probably doesn't know the difference between prototokos
and protoktistos; and no doubt would care little about it anyway. To some;
born first and created first are one and the same.
Well, that is interesting because if "prototokos" means "firstborn" rather than "first created", please explain how the son of God was the "firstborn of ALL creation", long before he experienced a human birth.....you are not making a lot of sense....

Jesus is also called the "firstborn from the dead" which is also "prototokos". (Colossians 1:18) It simply means that he was the very first human to be resurrected as a spirit in order to attain the necessary body, before returning to his God and Father in heaven. The same kind of body that his anointed ones (saints) would receive when he returned to resurrect them and 'take them home'.

I don't think you have a clue in the world what the average JW knows or believes....you get all your info from apostates. Have you ever been on the receiving end of an "ex's" description of you? Is it ever flattering? Do you ever get to hear the other side of the story? No! and the average misinformed person doesn't care about that either...the Jews swallowed the one-sided negative talk about Jesus too...it didn't make it true....it ended up turning them into murderers. Is that what they were expecting? Jesus said that "many" will be shocked at his judgment because they will offer him all their excuses but he will not buy any of them. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Where will I find the word "protoktistos" in a scripture relating to Jesus...reference please.

The people of Israel are God's firstborn nation (Ex 4:22) and David is God's
firstborn king on earth (Ps 89:20-27). But neither David nor the people of
Israel are, or were, firstborns relative to creation; they were/are firstborns
only in their respective positions.
Yes...but they were all humans.....all "born" of a woman.
Christ was a "firstborn of all creation" meaning that he was not "born" at all...he was created. The very "first" creation of his Father...."monogenes theos"....an "only begotten god". A divine personage, but not a deity.