The Wisdom of Sirach/Ecclesiasticus

[Pythagorean12]

I read other books from time to time.

Recently, I've looked into the Book of Sirach, and I already know that it isn't considered the inspired word of God, it says it is not the inspired word.

What it is is "natural theology." It came from experience. It is just wisdom about regular life about everything from "don't pick up doing too many things or you'll get nothing done" to proper dinner manners.

Your Amish have it, many of your Mennonites have it, and your pilgrims had it, and having been reading it, I felt sort of ripped off because there are so many parts where I thought to myself "I could have used that."

Albeit, a few verses here and there, I think I could do without, but some things you have to think with your own brain on.

Just wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on it.

Edit: I really titled this wrong.

Oh well nothing can be done about it now

I agree we shouldn't be afraid to read so called extra biblical texts. The canon was brought together for a very specific narrative that include politics of man forming God at his word. Even the bible has to be read with that in mind.
Whereas there are the dead sea scrolls to consider, the Apocrypha, even the Gnostic texts.
Recently, I read the Gospel of Judas, and the Gospel of Thomas. Very interesting reading if you're able to come across those.

I think if you pray for guidance you'll find God will lead you where you are to go. And if you happen on the Gospel of Thomas, for instance, and it resonates with you as wisdom and truth, maybe that's God telling you this is what you need to learn today.
God is far more powerful than man's fears. Don't worry yourself. :)

 

[Grailhunter]

It's fully extant only in Ethiopian, but there are fragments of it in multiple languages. The verse I was referring to that was corrupted is 1 Enoch 7:2, which in the Ethiopian states that the giants were like 4,000 feet tall or something, LoL (I forget exactly what the numbers were, but they were ridiculous). This version of the book was followed but several of the translators into English, but I own a copy of Nicklesburg's work and he corrected this obvious error with something that makes a lot more sense in light of some things said later in the book.

If you're interested (don't worry if you're not; I'm just responding to your post), a good explanation of it is provided in the link below. The mistake was the result of the copyists misreading a proper name for a reference to numerical height. See Raphael Mendija's entry in this Quora:
https://www.quora.com/How-tall-were-the-giants-in-the-Book-of-Enoch

I consider the Book of Enoch to be highly inspired just as Jude apparently did, but I don't insist upon it for anyone who is skeptical, especially if they don't understand that that particular verse became badly corrupted over time, through a misunderstanding of the copyists.

I am glad somebody is looking at this stuff....LOL

 

[DuckieLady]

Virtually one and the same, with Gnosticism simply having a "Christian" veneer.

Never got into Gnosticism too much.

Christian Mysticism, yes... Which I later found out was actually a cult and the people were being prevented from contacting their families and the entire time they were like "btw, this is a cult BUT You knOw tHe woRd 'cult' jUst Means" trap.

Thankfully, I didn't do it in person and the Father just convinced me Tarot cards were perfectly fine and broke my life via email instead. #success

Kabbalah was just weird. Regrets again.

 

[Enoch111]

Edit: I really titled this wrong. Oh well nothing can be done about it now

Sure you can have it fixed. Ask one of the mods to fix it. Call it "The Wisdom of Sirach".

It starts out with a very wise saying:
All wisdom is from the Lord God, and hath been always with him, and is before all time. Who hath numbered the sand of the sea, and the drops of rain, and the days of the world? Who hath measured the height of heaven, and the breadth of the earth, and the depth of the abyss?… There is one most high Creator Almighty, and a powerful king, and greatly to be feared, who sitteth upon his throne, and is the God of dominion...

 

[Grailhunter]

Looks interesting... Only problem is its easier because it was slammed together. I don't know how I would feel about the gnostic gospels, for example, DEFINITELY not the Kabbalah..

Well it is information.
Somethings are gnostic and somethings get labeled Gnostic.
You would be getting into an advanced area....it would be good to understand the Gnostic point of view to know the things they would write about.
But beyond that these books are early writings and the words have a message but also you can get a little in the heads of the people of the time period....it is the historical side of it.

 

[Grailhunter]

Sure you can have it fixed. Ask one of the mods to fix it. Call it "The Wisdom of Sirach".

It starts out with a very wise saying:
All wisdom is from the Lord God, and hath been always with him, and is before all time. Who hath numbered the sand of the sea, and the drops of rain, and the days of the world? Who hath measured the height of heaven, and the breadth of the earth, and the depth of the abyss?… There is one most high Creator Almighty, and a powerful king, and greatly to be feared, who sitteth upon his throne, and is the God of dominion...

She can modify the title herself

 

[DuckieLady]

She can modify the title herself

Do you know how many times I have messed that up and didn't find the button to fix it until you said I could? Lol

@Enoch111 Got it!

 

[Truman]

I'm gonna have to reread these sometime tomorrow... I'll catch up, I promise.

Washer didn't spin properly, water everywhere, locked myself out, had to talk to the manager, and then explain, and the mopped the laundry room, waited hours for clothes to not dry.

I am trying to comprehend but I am out of it right now

Lord, I ask that You'd comfort Fluffy Duck with Your presence. I ask that You'd melt away the stress and leave her with Your peace and joy. I ask this in Jesus' name, amen!

 

[Hidden In Him]

I agree we shouldn't be afraid to read so called extra biblical texts. The canon was brought together for a very specific narrative that include politics of man forming God at his word. Even the bible has to be read with that in mind.
Whereas there are the dead sea scrolls to consider, the Apocrypha, even the Gnostic texts.
Recently, I read the Gospel of Judas, and the Gospel of Thomas. Very interesting reading if you're able to come across those.

I think if you pray for guidance you'll find God will lead you where you are to go. And if you happen on the Gospel of Thomas, for instance, and it resonates with you as wisdom and truth, maybe that's God telling you this is what you need to learn today.
God is far more powerful than man's fears. Don't worry yourself. :)

@FluffyYellowDuck. I would warn you very strongly about taking this advice. Gnosticism was the single most dangerous and demonically-inspired "Christian" heresy of the early church era, and it caused some (if not many) to lose their salvation, through faith in a false "Christ" and a false gospel. I think our friend Pythagorean12 here is much like PittsburgJoe, and actually is covertly Gnostic, so I felt it only right to warn you. The Gnostic texts are not Sirach and Ecclesiaticus, nor were they penned by the Spirit of God. They are demonically-inspired, and those who read them do so at their own spiritual risk.

Hello, Pyhthagorian, and welcome to Christianity Board.

 

[DuckieLady]

Lord, I ask that You'd comfort Fluffy Duck with Your presence. I ask that You'd melt away the stress and leave her with Your peace and joy. I ask this in Jesus' name, amen!

Amen and you could not have come at a better time, was just trying to tell my kid to do something and couldn't speak for a moment!

Good again

 

[Abaxvahl]

I like it a lot. To answer your question, if you read the introduction in Sirach it kind of suggests that it is based off of natural experiences. Which is why it wasn't included, from what I understand.

I still find it necessary and I disagree with the removal... Very beautiful verse, by the way.

Its interesting, too, that much like Proverbs, in the Book of Sirach wisdom is portrayed as a woman.

Sirach 4:11-12

Wisdom takes care of those who look for her; she raises them to greatness. Loving her is loving life itself; rising early to look for her is pure joy.

Nah it's just because it is preserved in Greek and there is a weird Hebrew fetishization people have going on. It became universally accepted in the Church though so it is definitely divinely inspired (for the Church receives what God gives). It is based on Sirach's wisdom and him "being led" to write something to assist people in their moral development, but it is still inspired, for God often uses mundane reasons to inspire books (or seemingly mundane), such as St. Luke wanting to write a history of what had happened concerning Jesus for his friend Theophilus, or St. Paul preparing travel arrangements with the Church in Rome, and so on. These can become the occasions of divine inspiration in God's Providence.

My favorite passage on Wisdom in Sirach like that you quoted is Sirach 24, just the whole thing is very beautiful.

 

[DuckieLady]

@FluffyYellowDuck. I would warn you very strongly about taking this advice. Gnosticism was the single most dangerous and demonically-inspired "Christian" heresy of the early church era, and it caused some (if not many) to lose their salvation, through faith in a false "Christ" and a false gospel. I think our friend Pythagorean12 here is much like PittsburgJoe, and actually is covertly Gnostic, so I felt it only right to warn you. The Gnostic texts are not Sirach and Ecclesiaticus, nor were they penned by the Spirit of God. They are demonically-inspired, and those who read them do so at their own spiritual risk.

Hello, Pyhthagorian, and welcome to Christianity Board.

Thanks, @Hidden In Him! I'm a cautious person. Just listening. Being friendly.

Idk
Why don't we just ask?

@Pythagorean12 @Grailhunter

So, y'all Gnostics?

 

[DuckieLady]

Wait doesnt gnostic mean something like secret?

Is the first rule of gnostic club that you don't talk about gnostic club?

Did I break it

 

[Pythagorean12]

Thanks, @Hidden In Him! I'm a cautious person. Just listening. Being friendly.

Idk
Why don't we just ask?

@Pythagorean12 @Grailhunter

So, y'all Gnostics?

No, not Gnostic. Just well read. If God leads you to seek, ye shall find.
The Influences of Gnosticism on the Development and Growth of Early Christianity
Abstract

The scene is an easy one to set. It is the second century CE. There is no New Testament. There are writings called the Hebrew Scriptures, but nothing yet designated “Old Testament.” There is no creed. There is nothing known as orthodoxy, no formulated doctrine. Only the faint chrysalis of a diverse, fragmented theology exists. Orthodoxy is just beginning to take shape and is not in full bloom as it would become in the fourth and fifth centuries following the Council of Nicaea in 325. In many locales there are organized congregations and churches. There is an inchoate structure of bishop, priest, and deacon but nothing resembling a universally entrenched ecclesiastical hierarchy that would emerge later. There are several metropolitan centers vying for control—Ephesus, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Rome, Cesarea—but no power center as Rome would eventually become. The teeming multicultured Greco-Roman world described in Chapter 3 is in place, but there are two new players who have yet to acquire names: Gnosticism and Christianity.1....

 

[Hidden In Him]

Wait doesnt gnostic mean something like secret?

Is the first rule of gnostic club that you don't talk about gnostic club?

Did I break it

LoL. True Gnostics have to be careful around Christian forums because they know they can get booted if they come right out with some of the more blatantly heretical aspects of their belief system, especially their disdain for the Old Testament God. So they tend to be covert, and then over you helpful "advice" in the exact wrong direction when the opportunity presents itself.

And fyi, the word occult means "secret." The word "gnosis" simply means knowledge, but since Gnostic "knowledge" is highly occult-oriented, you could essentially say that Gnostic means "secret," yes. But the only secrets I've ever encountered from Gnosticism were the type that lead people to Hell, so I generally tell others to avoid them like the plague.

 

[Pythagorean12]

Wait doesnt gnostic mean something like secret?

Is the first rule of gnostic club that you don't talk about gnostic club?

Did I break it

I'm not Gnostic. If I were I would certainly admit it because there would be nothing to be ashamed of.And board rules would never matter to someone who was Gnostic. One would hope people would be more educated than to be bigots in that manner.
What should be and is a shame is one who is cowardly enough to imply someone is a liar without saying so outright; Yes, Hidden In Him, that would be you to whom I refer.

Dictionary

gno·sis
/ˈnōsəs/

Learn to pronounce

noun
noun: gnosis

1. knowledge of spiritual mysteries.

Origin

late 16th century: from Greek gnōsis ‘knowledge’ (related to gignōskein ‘know’).

 

[Hidden In Him]

@FluffyYellowDuck: Case in point below, Lol.

No, not Gnostic. Just well read. If God leads you to seek, ye shall find.
The Influences of Gnosticism on the Development and Growth of Early Christianity
Abstract

The scene is an easy one to set. It is the second century CE. There is no New Testament. There are writings called the Hebrew Scriptures, but nothing yet designated “Old Testament.” There is no creed. There is nothing known as orthodoxy, no formulated doctrine. Only the faint chrysalis of a diverse, fragmented theology exists. Orthodoxy is just beginning to take shape and is not in full bloom as it would become in the fourth and fifth centuries following the Council of Nicaea in 325. In many locales there are organized congregations and churches. There is an inchoate structure of bishop, priest, and deacon but nothing resembling a universally entrenched ecclesiastical hierarchy that would emerge later. There are several metropolitan centers vying for control—Ephesus, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Rome, Cesarea—but no power center as Rome would eventually become. The teeming multicultured Greco-Roman world described in Chapter 3 is in place, but there are two new players who have yet to acquire names: Gnosticism and Christianity.1....

 

[Hidden In Him]

No, not Gnostic. Just well read. If God leads you to seek, ye shall find.

I already know, Pythagorean, and as stated, I'm not real interested in going to Hell when I die. Why would I "seek" to end up in torment by reading up on the most demonically-inspired heresy in all of church history?

 

[Pythagorean12]

I already know, Pythagorean, and as stated, I'm not real interested in going to Hell when I die. Why would I "seek" to end up in torment by reading up on the most demonically-inspired heresy in all of church history?

And what an example you set as one who professes themselves to be Christian. Calling me a liar but not having the courage to state so directly. Seeking to turn a young woman against me because you disagree with my posts to her.
Yes, I see who you are hidden within. Praise God his reign is for a short time and only on earth.

 

[DuckieLady]

I'm just gonna be in the corner trying to come up with a solution to life's problems