The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Behold]

However, the Bible also says that ‘If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us’

What you dont realize is that the Apostles, often dealt with unbelievers.
They were all Preachers....
So, when they do that, they use the personal pronoun "we" to address = "them"... the unbelievers.

Its like this..
When preaching to a group, and they are unbelievers, you will say........to the group..>>"now, we know that Jesus has come to take away our sin, to forgive US"..

Yet, im not talking about me, as He already has mine, 2000 yrs ago..

But i would say.."we".. to THEM, who are not saved.......but im not talking about myself, when i say "we".

And both John and Paul, will say "we" when they are addressing unbelievers, and they are not talking about themselves... they are talking to and about the unbelievers.

You find this also in Hebrews...when you find...> "if WE keep on".... "If we willfully".. and that is an Apostle who has no sin, talking to sinners who are not born again.
And many Christians do not understand this, so they apply that "we" to themselves... as if THEY are the unbeliever.

You just did that, @GodsGrace .... because you are not trained very well, regarding the Scriptures..
You do not yet understand what Jesus was talking about when from the Cross He said.."IT...IS... FINISHED".

You need to read Romans 4:8 and 2 Corinthians 5:19... and do some study....and believe those verses.

Let me explain something to the bible student, who can hear.

If you have SIN, then you are not born again, as you can't have Sin, and be born again.

Why not?
Because the Born again, is 'IN CHRIST, and "ONE WITH GOD", and they are "seated in heavenly places" and are not under the Law.. but "under Grace".

See that?
So, you can't have SIN, and be "in Christ", "one with God", and "in Heaven".

Many..., do not understand this, and religious Cults do not understand this, at all.

Be sure you DO, understand it... Reader.... And be certain you pay attention to those who do not understand Salvation, and will try to make you believe that you have SIN, when in Fact Jesus has it, if you are born again.

"God hath made JESUS>..........to BE SIN.......for US"..

A.) ""US""" = the born again.

 

[marks]

Paul exhorts us not to sin in every one of his letters.
Why would he tell us not to do something unless it were possible to do?

I fully agree! What I'm really talking about is spiritual maturity, any past experiences aside. What happened with me, I believe, was for me, that I would know that healing and holiness are possible. A few months after that experience, I endured about the same amount of time in a deep and dark and painful depression, in which I very much would have preferred to be dead.

But none of these things mean anything in the larger sense. What the Bible says is what matters.

My children, I write these things to you that you may not sin. And if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, even Jesus Christ the righteous (testing my memory here).

So we are called to not sin, and it is acknowledged that we might, that we can.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. What we are admonished by God to do, can we do that? I say yes we can.

If you walk in the Spirit, you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

So believing God's word, being alive in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit, in which we won't do the fleshy stuff. That's pure Bible.

I neither teach nor claim "sinless perfection", but I do believe we are to go on to maturity, which is charaterized by a consistent walking in the Spirit, while acknowledging that we can become triggered in the flesh, and sin, at which time, the quickest we can recognize what has happened, to return to walking in our faith, and so also in the Spirit.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

My children, I write these things to you that you may not sin. And if we do sin,

you misquoted the verse.....

the verse says, "if any MAN sin"...

Notice that John is not talking to the BORN again?

Then He says.. "that you may not sin".. referring to the "little Children", that is the distinction vs, "the man that can sin"...

So, you then go to (KJV) 1 John 3:9, and read that.... so that you can understand what John is explaining...

and That means... because we have an Advocate, who is our Blood Atonement, we are now "made free from sin".. which is why we are "translated from darkness to Light"...

And that "light" is .."God exists in LIGHT".....and we are '"""Children of the Light""""", because we exist where no sin exists....... Brother Marks.


Welcome to being born again.

You dont have sin..
Jesus has it.
So, when you mess up, goof up, and do something carnal, there is no LAW that can define you as a sinner, because you exist where God exists and there is no Law found there.. and that is why you are "not under the law, but under GRACE"//

"where there is NO LAW... (Kingdom of God) ... there is no Transgression (sin)".

You can't be "in Christ" and have sin, as there is no sin found there.

 

[marks]

you misquoted the verse.....

the verse says, "if any MAN sin"...

There ya' go! I said I was going off of memory. Thank you for the correction! Hopefully I won't make the same mistake again.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Jesus gave us a remedy for sin, this means it's possible to sin even after belief and baptism.

I believe that being baptized into Christ joins us to him in death and resurrection. Dying with Him justifies us, that is, we are made righteous, judicially by being forgiven of all sin, and practically by virtue of a new creation. We are created patterned after Him in righteousness and true holiness.

Even being regenerated though, we still live in these flesh bodies that were corrupted by sin, Adam's sin, our sin, and that corruption remains. So it's like we are driving a wrecked car. We are new, but our flesh remains against us. That conflict remains as long as we remain in these corrupt bodies.

However, though it may feel like the flesh still has power, that's a lie, and therefore we're told to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God.

Trusting in God to keep us from sin, and choosing to not sin, God gives us that power to not sin, not so much by "refusing to do what we are not to do", more by doing those things we are to do, and in so doing, leaving no room for sin to happen.

I believe the Bible teaches us that walking in the Spirit means we are not sinning, because the Spirit gives us love, to fulfill the law of love, and self control, which is over our flesh.

I think the Biblical life of the Christian is to grow more and more in faith, and as we do, to more and more trust in the Spirit to empower us to walk in the Way.

Your thoughts?


Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

I've read through this post a couple of times, and I want to go back and comment on some things, but first though, I'm not seeing what I was hoping for, some Scripture that tells me about this "first encounter with Christ", and how it begins a spiritual process by which we eventually, hopefully, become reborn.

marks, are the texts that record Jesus calling the disciples, and then their following after Him not enough? Scripture itself says that is it 'here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept', so it is in taking all things into consideration instead of the common western proof texting .

Conversing with you has been very useful, in demonstrating to me how far I have come in 'adopting' the eastern mindset.

Some things are kept hidden as God does not force things onto us, and it is He who reveals them not our intellect.

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Matt. 11:25

Acts 2:41 KJV
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

So where were the thousands that had been following Jesus already, feeding on the fish and bread after sitting listening to His teachings?

So for instance, these people, where do I find teaching that these were not actually baptizd into Jesus Christ's death, and risen again with Him, dead to sin?

And what is the Scripture that gives us teaching about this first baptism, and what it accomplishes, if it's not the "one baptism" Paul cites in Ephesians 4?


This is what I'm looking for Scripture concerning. How do our dead-in-sin fleshy souls "awaken to the things of God" apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit? How can we have relationship with God without the forgiveness of sins, and justification (being rendered righteous)?

Agreed, but obviously from various instances in scripture, there were two classes that were in communication with Jesus, even Judas. I think there is a difference between having the dealings of the Holy Spirit, where He works for a short time within us and Him dwelling inside of us.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

I understand these were written for our examples. I've heard a number of different interpretations/applications of the Israelite journey from Egypt into the promised land. Each of them have left me with questions of why it would mean what they've said, and why these interpretations often seem to contradict NT teaching.

I remember once doing a study through Ruth. I discovered that just about every part of the story served to illustrate some truth from the NT, primarily from Paul's letters. I was fascinated! I look for that kind of harmony in this sort of pursuit, not that our interpretations from the OT histories would force us to not use the plain teachings of the NT passages, rather, that they will support and illustrate the NT passages.

I see the likeness of the journey of the children of Israel in the journey of the NT disciples before they became apostles.

In your interpretation above, I'd be quick to point out, even as you've said, crossing the Red Sea destroyed their captors, but not their enemies, they would have to defeat enemy after enemy, both before and in the promised land.

Yes you are right! Destroy the captors is much more suiting.

Some interpret the Red Sea as our conversion, and the Jordan river our Theosis. Or our baptism in the Holy Spirit. Or our actual conversion.

Some have said that every Christian begins in a wilderness walk. Some have said that most Christians die there, losing their salvation. I've heard so many interpretations.

Which is the correct understanding? The right interpretation? And how can we know? I feel like we, for the most part, myself included, reach certain understandings from the NT, and look back on these histories and see those places were we feel our interpretation is reflected. Having seen such things, should we use that to support our views?

I think that we can compare our own experience to the facts of scripture. If we are born again are we living in Romans 6 and the sermon on the mount? Is this our actual testimony? Do people who know us agree?

So that, one person sees conversion/salvation in the application of blood in faith that it will save them to correspond to rebirth. That sure makes sense on the face of it. Knowing little more than that we are going to perish, but the blood of the sacrifice will save us.

How would I argue against that? It fits. But is that what is meant? Does this mean that every Christian will subsequently have two water crossings, to be interpreted somehow?

If we are seeing them on a spiritual level, are there two life changing events when we encounter the living God, spiritual wakening and Spirit baptism? This is apart from other times when we feel His Spirit near and have other emotional experiences.

What I'm looking for is Biblical authority, that the Bible would teach me such things. And I do find that, only, others find much different things. So I always return to the Bible for the answer.


Again, how does this happen aside from regeneration? Is this an example "Spirit comes upon them"? Something else?

Yes it is apart from the Spirit coming upon us. He stays this time and makes His home with us.

I'd have a difficult time parsing my life accordingly. To me these come over and over, deeper and deeper, in the process of maturing. And that walking in the Spirit cannot be defined according to "how long does it last". It didn't remain with me, it didn't remain with you.

I have had four times the longest lasting 18 months. I don't know the reason for this present desert but suspect is part of my deepest level of healing, before He can use me fully.

If the only people who are reborn are those in Theosis, then what of us? We were saved and lost. But I don't believe that for a moment!

I do not think that they are in the same position of those who have not been Spirit baptized (not he counterfeit one especially). What God will do with them as they are ending their lives I do not know but I trust His ways.

Why are those who are crucified in Christ admonished to reckon themselves dead to sin and alive to God? Wouldn't that be their state? How could you miss it?

Why are those who are crucified with Christ admonished to not yield their members as instruments of unrighteousness? Why would they ever do that in Theosis?

But if we are crucified in Christ, but our corrupt flesh remains for us to deal with, even though it's power has been destroyed, then these admonitions are exactly on target. We are to ignore what seems to be true of our flesh, that it still has power, and we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin, as the first step in denying sin and walking in righteousness. If you think you cannot, you will not. So God tells us, first, know that you can. And here is how you do it.

There will have ben those who 'lost it' I believe and needed teaching as well as those who have not reached it yet. Paul is saying 'if' you have been crucified with Christ to show them the error in believing something that is not true.

Also as Peter says, Paul is not easy to understand. We really need to be in the same state as the teachers to understand them fully.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

1John8:If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us​

This verse is repeated ad nauseum by those who ignore the rest of the verses in the same letter:

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

So do they think they perhaps have misinterpreted this one verse @GodsGrace ?

 

[Hepzibah]

1 John: 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This verse shows us what John is talking about ie those who say (gnostics) that their sin is not counted as sin because the flesh is not the spirit and God does not see the sins. We see that today in Christianity. It also says ALL unrighteousness. @GodsGrace

 

[uncle silas]

1John8:If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us​

This verse is repeated ad nauseum by those who ignore the rest of the verses in the same letter:

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

So do they think they perhaps have misinterpreted this one verse @GodsGrace ?

Or, possibly John refers to sin in two different ways?

 

[uncle silas]

1 John: 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This verse shows us what John is talking about ie those who say (gnostics) that their sin is not counted as sin because the flesh is not the spirit and God does not see the sins. We see that today in Christianity. It also says ALL unrighteousness. @GodsGrace

Possibly Paul does too:
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. Rom6:1-7

Yet, Paul wrote to ''the church of God in Corinth'' and called them ''brothers'' How sin free were they?

 

[Hepzibah]

Possibly Paul does too:
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. Rom6:1-7

Yet, Paul wrote to ''the church of God in Corinth'' How sin free were they?

It has been a remnant who have gone on to perfection, apart from the 12 , hence the need for the teaching and admonitions.

 

[uncle silas]

It has always been a remnant who have gone on to perfection, apart from the 12, hence the need for the teaching and admonitions.

Well Ive yet to meet anyone who perfectly without slip, obeys each and every literal applicable command under the NC, have you? I imagine such a person would no longer rely on Christ's shed blood at Calvary, they wouldn't need it, Jesus would become irrelevant in their life.
Unless you accept the bible speaks of sin in two different ways, there will always appear contradictions in the letter of what is written

 

[Hepzibah]

Well Ive yet to meet anyone who perfectly without slip, obeys each and every literal applicable command under the NC, have you? I imagine such a person would no longer rely on Christ's shed blood at Calvary, they wouldn't need it, Jesus would become irrelevant in their life.
Unless you accept the bible speaks of sin in two different ways, there will always appear contradictions in the letter of what is written

Glory be! How the sinful human mind will twist and distort the clear simple meaning of the text when it disagrees with their theology!

 

[uncle silas]

It has been a remnant who have gone on to perfection, apart from the 12 , hence the need for the teaching and admonitions.

Lets take an extreme example. A man professes to have gotten saved. He is a drunk, has continuous affairs, beats his wife constantly, and con stantly uses foul language. Six months later lets say, nothing at all has changed in his life, he still carries on exactly as he did the day he professes to have got saved. How many christians would believe he truly is saved?
Another person gets saved, the evidence becomes quickly apparant, much of the sin that dominated their life has been dealt with. However, they are not sin free, but continuing on their journey. How many christians would believe they are truly saved, despite them not being sin free?
There is a huge dfifference!

 

[uncle silas]

Glory be! How the sinful human mind will twist and distort the clear simple meaning of the text when it disagrees with their theology!

What text am I twisting?

 

[uncle silas]

Glory be! How the sinful human mind will twist and distort the clear simple meaning of the text when it disagrees with their theology!

Some people, who have not so much maturity in their understanding, cling to a set of ''pet scriptures'' they like concerning their views and ignore the rest. It is not half a bible, but a complete bible, and we should seek to bring it into cohesion as one complete bible, not just cherry pick what suits what we want to believe and ignore the rest. If you do not accept the bible speaks of sin in two different ways, you will be forced to ignore much of what is written. That's not christian maturity

 

[uncle silas]

Glory be! How the sinful human mind will twist and distort the clear simple meaning of the text when it disagrees with their theology!

BTW, do you think the corinthians were sin free, or anywhere near it? You set the bar not to sin at an extremely low level if you think they were
Yet Paul referred to them as ''the church of the living God in Corinth'' and called them ''brothers''
Due to some of your literalistic quotes, should I assume you believe Paul was in error?

 

[GodsGrace]

What you dont realize is that the Apostles, often dealt with unbelievers.
They were all Preachers....
So, when they do that, they use the personal pronoun "we" to address = "them"... the unbelievers.

Its like this..
When preaching to a group, and they are unbelievers, you will say........to the group..>>"now, we know that Jesus has come to take away our sin, to forgive US"..

So are you saying that Jesus did not come to take away our sin?
Are you saying we are not forgiven?
Are you saying that not all of the NT is for all of us?
Except for John 17 when Jesus speaks DIRECTLY to the Apostles, I'd say that the entirety of the NT is for all believers.
Maybe you'd have to separate what is for unbelievers, what is for only a few, and what is for everyone?

Yet, im not talking about me, as He already has mine, 2000 yrs ago..

But i would say.."we".. to THEM, who are not saved.......but im not talking about myself, when i say "we".

And both John and Paul, will say "we" when they are addressing unbelievers, and they are not talking about themselves... they are talking to and about the unbelievers.

I see. So when John is writing and he calls his listeners BROTHERS, he's really speaking to unbelievers?
1 John 2:1
MY LITTLE CHILDREN....

Here John would be speaking to unbelievers?
And then he continues to say BUT IF WE SIN....WE HAVE AN ADVOCATE....
You presume John is speaking to non-Christians?
Wouldn't a person have to be a Christian FIRST before he knows sin and knows to ask for forgiveness
from the advocate?

Let's check out
1 John 2:4
4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

WHO has come to KNOW GOD?
I'd say that it's someone who BELIEVES in God and thus is a born again Christian -ù
NOT an unbeliever.

1 John 2:5
5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:

WHO keep the word of God?
An unbeliever?

1 John 2:6
6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

WHO abides in Christ?
An unbeliever?

You find this also in Hebrews...when you find...> "if WE keep on".... "If we willfully".. and that is an Apostle who has no sin, talking to sinners who are not born again.
And many Christians do not understand this, so they apply that "we" to themselves... as if THEY are the unbeliever.

Interesting concept Behold.
Anything to not take the NT teachings seriously.

You can fool some reading along....
but you will not fool God.

Hebrews 5:9
9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

TO ALL THOSE WHO OBEY HIM....
Yes, I'd say this incudes ALL who believe Him....believers .....
because non-believers are ALREADY condemned and there's no need to obey.

You just did that, @GodsGrace .... because you are not trained very well, regarding the Scriptures..
You do not yet understand what Jesus was talking about when from the Cross He said.."IT...IS... FINISHED".

Are you the same Behold who stated in another thread, just about a month ago,
that a person could be sinning for 7 years and still be saved?

If I were reading your posts.....I'd ignore them completely since your teachings might
send some straight to the other place and miss heaven altogether since you do not preach what
Jesus preached but some version of the NT that does not exist.

You need to read Romans 4:8 and 2 Corinthians 5:19... and do some study....and believe those verses.

Let me explain something to the bible student, who can hear.

If you have SIN, then you are not born again, as you can't have Sin, and be born again.

Why not?
Because the Born again, is 'IN CHRIST, and "ONE WITH GOD", and they are "seated in heavenly places" and are not under the Law.. but "under Grace".

See that?
So, you can't have SIN, and be "in Christ", "one with God", and "in Heaven".

Many..., do not understand this, and religious Cults do not understand this, at all.

How about speaking less and exegeting Romans 4:8 and 2 Corinthians 5:19?

Would that be the same Corinthians that had to expel a sinner out of their congregation for sinning?
Yes. I do believe so.

Will await your exegete.

Be sure you DO, understand it... Reader.... And be certain you pay attention to those who do not understand Salvation, and will try to make you believe that you have SIN, when in Fact Jesus has it, if you are born again.

I'd like to advise you Behold,,,
that JESUS HAS NO SIN.

"God hath made JESUS>..........to BE SIN.......for US"..

A.) ""US""" = the born again.

Will respond when you finish exegeting 2 Corinthians 5:19

 

[GodsGrace]

I fully agree! What I'm really talking about is spiritual maturity, any past experiences aside. What happened with me, I believe, was for me, that I would know that healing and holiness are possible. A few months after that experience, I endured about the same amount of time in a deep and dark and painful depression, in which I very much would have preferred to be dead.

But none of these things mean anything in the larger sense. What the Bible says is what matters.

My children, I write these things to you that you may not sin. And if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, even Jesus Christ the righteous (testing my memory here).

So we are called to not sin, and it is acknowledged that we might, that we can.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. What we are admonished by God to do, can we do that? I say yes we can.

If you walk in the Spirit, you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

So believing God's word, being alive in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit, in which we won't do the fleshy stuff. That's pure Bible.

I neither teach nor claim "sinless perfection", but I do believe we are to go on to maturity, which is charaterized by a consistent walking in the Spirit, while acknowledging that we can become triggered in the flesh, and sin, at which time, the quickest we can recognize what has happened, to return to walking in our faith, and so also in the Spirit.

Much love!

Yes, I agree.
We walk in the spirit, abiding in Christ, with the Holy Spirit and pay attention to our spirit.

Our spirit will have an affect on our soul (mind, will, emotions) and sinning will be held to a minimum as we mature more and more.

Walking in the flesh means that we are following our old man....giving in to every temptation which is awakened constantly by our sin nature and thus we sin.

But our new man is walking in the spirit and our attention to the flesh is minimized.