Read what I actuallly wrote. Jesus is a persons saviour from sin. If a person reached the stage where they never commmtted any sin whatsoever, what need would they have of a saviour from sin?
The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.
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Hmmmm, Ive only come accross one person who studied the greek and understood Paul's message.
I like a quote of Smith Wigglesworth:
''Some like to read their bibles through the Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew, I like to read mine in through the Holy Spirit''
Call me simplistic if you like, but, as long as I read a reputable translation, I like to believe the Holy Spirit can work with it, to show me the truth he wants me to see. If I solely relied on a particular translation, I wouldn't be relying on the Holy Spirit
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I don't think that way at all. Rather it signifies not taking the whole of scripture into consideration while using selected texts.
I stand corrected. Thank you. I had not studied the passage myself which I usually do.
look at the genre of a passage, whether it be narrative, as of Jesus going to pray, then choosing His disciples, or it be teaching, whom he foreknew He also predestinated, whom He predistinated He called, and so forth.
I have just come to the realization, that the teachings of Dispensationalism, are the greatest stumbling block to holiness teaching/Theosis laid out by the early church, and even worse than Calvinism. I am still trying to get my head around this, but am very grateful that I have seen it.
It is ignoring the fact that the two trees in Eden, are spiritual laws for all times and not just for a specific period. The New Covenant was there from the start. I also agree with a previous poster who says your views of Flesh are off and have not been able to put my finger on why as you seemed to change it. Flesh is more than damaged brain function, it is everything that is not Spirit, including the physical body if used to carry out the desires of the passions. It is the motivation behind it not meat itself.
It also includes neutral things like the will to live if it is used against the wishes of God. It is human thinking which is of no use in the spiritual realm.
Of course you will see that I do not agree! I don't think it was authority to forgive as only God can do that, but rather the ability of those in Theosis to read the hearts of man and know their sincerity.
Yes baptized into Christ. Scripture just does not say what next.
People in the OT were named as holy, and King David begged that the Holy Spirit would not be taken from him. If God said Job was holy I believe it.
marks, I see you discount the early church teaching because of your theology. They were very adamant about this progressive theology we see today and stressed the 'faith which was handed down' . Dispensationalism has been on the go for about 100 years.
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I'm not sure @uncle silas is agreeing with me regarding the sin nature....
but my reply to you is that the Trinity is also not written in the bible and yet the idea/concept is there.
I explained in detail why the flesh means nothing since the flesh is not able to move or to sin.
It's OUR NATURE and spcifically our sinful or sin nature that causes us to sin.
Pointing to a word in the Greek Lexicon means nothing marks.
However, I'm not going to discuss this ad nauseam with you....
you can accept the explanation or leave it.
But if you're going to use the Greek Lexicon for your understanding of scripture,
then be consistent and use it for every verse.
Look up the word DRAG in your NT and see if it means TO DRAG by force in every instance.
You'll find that it does not.
So there goes your Greek Lexicon.
2To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
You are misunderstanding me. Once one reaches the state whereby they do not sin, they can fall from it.
Paul addressed his letters to 'the church'. He rebuked them for allowing immoral people (not the church) to remain amongst them.
Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 1Cor3:1-3
Yes!
You're right that I don't understand you,,,even though I've tried really hard.
I don't believe we can EVER reach a state of sinlessness until after we're dead.
I think I've stated on this very thread that the ECFs believed a person could have the ability to never sin after baptism,
but they did realize, at some point, that this was not true.
I think we just don't agree on the basic principle of whether or not it's possible to stop sinning.
If you've noticed, I don't like to debate this too much. As long as a person is loving God and HIS ways, whatever doctrine they believe is fine...we will not be judged on our doctrine.
There are, maybe, two ideologies I could debate forever....but this isn't one of them.
1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly—as infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food. In fact, you are still not ready, 3for you are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and dissension among you, are you not worldly? Paul is saying that he should have been able to address them as spiritual therefore they were, or sanctified but not entirely sanctified. All in line with ecf understanding. |
Just read the above...
I have to agree with @uncle silas .
A person that believes he never sins has set the bar too low.
I think I could say I never sin...
Never take the name of the Lord in vain.
Don't worship idols.
I do my very best to keep one day holy...set apart for God.
Don't kill anyone.
Don't want my neighbor's goods.
No adultery.
Sounds pretty good.
Until I realize all the little ways I sin and HOW HOLY God is that to HIM everything that does not hit the mark is a sin.
Yes. I think the bar might be set too low.
To say nothing of the fact that to boast that one never sins would be the sin of pride.
Sin is anything in thought word or deed that is against the commandments of God.
It is not boasting to say it is all of God.
'The analysis of Christian development into these three ‘ways’ or phases derives from Dionysius the Pseudo-Areopagite, who ascribed a rhythm of purification, illumination, and union (or perfection) both to the hierarchies of angels and to the Church on earth. Medieval W. interpreters of Dionysius turned his scheme into an account of spiritual progress in terms of the three ways, beginning with the eradication of bad habits and the cultivation of the virtues, moving on to the illumination of the mind by meditation and contemplation, and culminating in unitive love. These three ways were adopted by later writers such as St John of the Cross and so became classic in systematic theories of Christian spirituality.' purgative, illuminative, and unitive ways
St. Gregory Nazianzen, one of the great theologians of the fourth century, calls out to us over the centuries and exhorts us with the following. To quote St. Gregory: “Let us not remain what we are, but let us become what we once were.” And from St. Peter, the chief of the apostles, through the first-century voice of St. Ignatius of Antioch, from Irenaeus of the second century through the great Cappadocian Fathers of the fourth century, of the great Desert Fathers of the fifth century, Maximus the Confessor of the sixth century to John of Damascus and John of The Ladder in the ninth century, from Gregory Palamas in the 14th century to St. Silouan in the 20th century—the great Fathers of our Orthodox Church have echoed this exhortation of St. Gregory, reminding us and ever pointing us to the truth, that by God’s grace we can become much more than we are. Our Purpose Our Passions - Purification, Illumination, Deification: Orthodox Spirituality | Ancient Faith Ministries
St. Gregory Nazianzen, one of the great theologians of the fourth century, calls out to us over the centuries and exhorts us with the following. To quote St. Gregory: “Let us not remain what we are, but let us become what we once were.” And from St. Peter, the chief of the apostles, through the first-century voice of St. Ignatius of Antioch, from Irenaeus of the second century through the great Cappadocian Fathers of the fourth century, of the great Desert Fathers of the fifth century, Maximus the Confessor of the sixth century to John of Damascus and John of The Ladder in the ninth century, from Gregory Palamas in the 14th century to St. Silouan in the 20th century—the great Fathers of our Orthodox Church have echoed this exhortation of St. Gregory, reminding us and ever pointing us to the truth, that by God’s grace we can become much more than we are. Our Purpose Our Passions - Purification, Illumination, Deification: Orthodox Spirituality | Ancient Faith Ministries
OK.
So are you saying it's possible to never sin?
Could you just state this plainly?
If you say you do not sin...
no matter HOW you do this..,.
it is boasting.
Because it is NOT all of God.
YOU, the person, must contribute to your salvation.
If you say it is all of God and you DO sin, you're theology places the blame for that sin squarely on God.
God works in us...
He WORKS in us to do His will....
He does not FORCE or coerce us to do His will.
This would be reformed doctrine - I don't think you're reformed.
God must put into us a pure heart as it is the only way we can walk without sin as I have done at times in the past.
Are you remembering I didn't do that, instead doing a word study throughout the NT of "flesh" and "body"? Regardless, obviously this is not being a fruitful discussion.
Much love!
This is why I don't like being labeled. I get pegged with things I don't think. Or in this case the reverse. Yes, knowledge and life, sin and righteousness, the flesh and the Spirit, Self and Jesus.
Anyway, Once again I'm becoming the odd man out because I hold more tightly to the wording of the Scriptures. It's OK, I've become used to it.
Much love!
