The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Hepzibah]

@marks

I know, so many different views so who is right?

You are wanting to have the Way pointed out for you so you can find scriptures, but walking in the Spirit means you need to start listening first.

It is very simple and l think you meant something like it earlier.I

Ask the Lord what He wants you to do. Where are you not hearing Him regarding your walk. Do it. More light will come. It is step by step.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe that being baptized into Christ joins us to him in death and resurrection. Dying with Him justifies us, that is, we are made righteous, judicially by being forgiven of all sin, and practically by virtue of a new creation. We are created patterned after Him in righteousness and true holiness.

Even being regenerated though, we still live in these flesh bodies that were corrupted by sin, Adam's sin, our sin, and that corruption remains. So it's like we are driving a wrecked car. We are new, but our flesh remains against us. That conflict remains as long as we remain in these corrupt bodies.

Agreed.
I do understand better having the sin nature instead of speaking about the flesh.
My understanding is that our sin nature (the effect of Adam's sin which scars us) is what makes the flesh sin.
But however one wants to understand this, I do agree with your statements above.

It's not even so much that we're driving a wrecked car,
but that it's possible to get into an accident.

However, though it may feel like the flesh still has power, that's a lie, and therefore we're told to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God.

Yes. Amen.

Trusting in God to keep us from sin, and choosing to not sin, God gives us that power to not sin, not so much by "refusing to do what we are not to do", more by doing those things we are to do, and in so doing, leaving no room for sin to happen.

Interesting.
Agreed.
Serving God (being Holy) doesn't mean that we just stop doing evil/bad....
but that we actually will do good in order to increase the Kingdom of God and make life here on earth better - at least for
the few that we're able to have influence upon.

I believe the Bible teaches us that walking in the Spirit means we are not sinning, because the Spirit gives us love, to fulfill the law of love, and self control, which is over our flesh.

You say that walking in the spirit means we are not sinning....
I just like to be careful to note that we can and do sin and that it is US that are sinning and it actually IS happening...
but I agree that the Spirit gives us the love necessary to have self-control - which should not be a hardship due to the love we have for our Savior - and our sin nature is under submission and does not rule our life.

Christ has indeed bought us back!

I think the Biblical life of the Christian is to grow more and more in faith, and as we do, to more and more trust in the Spirit to empower us to walk in the Way.

Your thoughts?

Amen. Yes, agreed.
We are forever maturing and getting better and better and becoming more and more sensitive to sin so as to commit it less and less.

 

[GodsGrace]

1John8:If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us​

This verse is repeated ad nauseum by those who ignore the rest of the verses in the same letter:

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

So do they think they perhaps have misinterpreted this one verse @GodsGrace ?

I'd say that you've created a conflict in the NT and it's up to you to resolve it.

I see no conflict in the NT.

Could you tell me the difference between 1 John 1 and 2
and 1 John 3:9?

If you can, you've resolved the problem...
if you cannot, you have a problem.

And the verse is being repeated because there can be NO CONFLICT in the NT....
If John makes provision for sin...
it means sin can happen.

I also like to post Jesus' teachings even more.
How about John 20:23?
Jesus makes provision for sins....IF YOU FORGIVE THE SINS OF ANY, THEIR SINS ARE FORGIVEN....

What sins?

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand these were written for our examples. I've heard a number of different interpretations/applications of the Israelite journey from Egypt into the promised land. Each of them have left me with questions of why it would mean what they've said, and why these interpretations often seem to contradict NT teaching.

I remember once doing a study through Ruth. I discovered that just about every part of the story served to illustrate some truth from the NT, primarily from Paul's letters. I was fascinated! I look for that kind of harmony in this sort of pursuit, not that our interpretations from the OT histories would force us to not use the plain teachings of the NT passages, rather, that they will support and illustrate the NT passages.

In your interpretation above, I'd be quick to point out, even as you've said, crossing the Red Sea destroyed their captors, but not their enemies, they would have to defeat enemy after enemy, both before and in the promised land.

Some interpret the Red Sea as our conversion, and the Jordan river our Theosis. Or our baptism in the Holy Spirit. Or our actual conversion.

Some have said that every Christian begins in a wilderness walk. Some have said that most Christians die there, losing their salvation. I've heard so many interpretations.

Which is the correct understanding? The right interpretation? And how can we know? I feel like we, for the most part, myself included, reach certain understandings from the NT, and look back on these histories and see those places were we feel our interpretation is reflected. Having seen such things, should we use that to support our views?

So that, one person sees conversion/salvation in the application of blood in faith that it will save them to correspond to rebirth. That sure makes sense on the face of it. Knowing little more than that we are going to perish, but the blood of the sacrifice will save us.

How would I argue against that? It fits. But is that what is meant? Does this mean that every Christian will subsequently have two water crossings, to be interpreted somehow?

What I'm looking for is Biblical authority, that the Bible would teach me such things. And I do find that, only, others find much different things. So I always return to the Bible for the answer.


Again, how does this happen aside from regeneration? Is this an example "Spirit comes upon them"? Something else?



I'd have a difficult time parsing my life accordingly. To me these come over and over, deeper and deeper, in the process of maturing. And that walking in the Spirit cannot be defined according to "how long does it last". It didn't remain with me, it didn't remain with you. If the only people who are reborn are those in Theosis, then what of us? We were saved and lost. But I don't believe that for a moment!


Why are those who are crucified in Christ admonished to reckon themselves dead to sin and alive to God? Wouldn't that be their state? How could you miss it?

Why are those who are crucified with Christ admonished to not yield their members as instruments of unrighteousness? Why would they ever do that in Theosis?

But if we are crucified in Christ, but our corrupt flesh remains for us to deal with, even though it's power has been destroyed, then these admonitions are exactly on target. We are to ignore what seems to be true of our flesh, that it still has power, and we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin, as the first step in denying sin and walking in righteousness. If you think you cannot, you will not. So God tells us, first, know that you can. And here is how you do it.

Much love!

If you like an authoritative denomination, you'd have to join the CC.
Problem is that some of their doctrine won't be found in the bible.
OTOH, you'll have ONE understanding of the NT and I find no problem with that.
(I'm not Catholic but know their theology).

 

[GodsGrace]

1 John: 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This verse shows us what John is talking about ie those who say (gnostics) that their sin is not counted as sin because the flesh is not the spirit and God does not see the sins. We see that today in Christianity. It also says ALL unrighteousness. @GodsGrace

John was very concerned about the gnostics. Agreed.

But I can't agree as to what you post re 1 John 1:9
Verse 8 states that if we say we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves.
And THE TRUTH is not in us.
This means that if we want to be honest, know the truth, we'd have to say that we do have sin.

Verse 9 states that if we confess our SINS, He is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins.
SINS....plural....the sins we commit.

John is addressing MY LITTLE CHILDREN...born again believers.

If people today believe that we sin with the flesh and thus God does not see this...
they are sadly mistaken.

God sees ALL OUR SINS,,,,but He has made provision for them.
Hopefully we mature as Christians and we sin less and less....
I did post this to @marks just above.

 

[uncle silas]

If you asked nearly all christians if you had to be sinless in your flesh to be in a saved state, they will respond 'No' for they know they are not sinless/without any sin at all(1John1:8)
However, if you asked nearly all christians if you could be in a saved state if you lived a wanton lifestyle of sin(Paul terms it being a slave to sin) they would also respond ''No''(1John 3:9)
As a Jewish believer once said:
''You can understand the Quran simply by reading the letter of it, the bible was not meant to be understood that way

 

[GodsGrace]

If you asked nearly all christians if you had to be sinless in your flesh to be in a saved state, they will respond 'No' for they know they are not sinless/without any sin at all(1John1:8)
However, if you asked nearly all christians if you could be in a saved state if you lived a wanton lifestyle of sin(Paul terms it being a slave to sin) they would also respond ''No''(1John 3:9)
As a Jewish believer once said:
''You can understand the Quran simply by reading the letter of it, the bible was not meant to be understood that way

Good questions that could be asked.

But, I must say, that I DO wish that Jesus had put His hand to parchment and written down some LAWS/RULES.
It might have been able to deflect all this writing of what we think Jesus meant - or the writers of the NT for that matter.

I know why He didn't...
Just wishing out loud.

 

[marks]

You are wanting to have the Way pointed out for you so you can find scriptures, but walking in the Spirit means you need to start listening first.

Actually I'm asking you to show me these things in the Bible because I don't think they are there, that the Bible says something different, and I'm hoping that you will see this. Meanwhile, general exploration of the topic continues to greatly interest me.

As for myself, the things I've come to believe concerning walking in the Spirit seem to be effective and fruitful.

Much love!

 

[marks]

marks, are the texts that record Jesus calling the disciples, and then their following after Him not enough? Scripture itself says that is it 'here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept', so it is in taking all things into consideration instead of the common western proof texting .

Personally I dislike the term "proof-texting", as it seems to denigrate the teaching of the Bible. If the Bible expresses a truth in a text, I'm not wrong to believe it. In fact, I find teachings repeated in various Scriptures.

Interestingly, this idea "here a little there a little" comes from a text in Isaiah that isn't actually giving this idea as the way we are to learn.

Isaiah 28:7-14 KJV
7) But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8) For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
9) Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12) To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13) But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14) Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

The prophet it telling them they are drunks who are like babies, so that they had to be taught like you teach babies,

This is from the NLT:

Now, however, Israel is led by drunks
who reel with wine and stagger with alcohol.
The priests and prophets stagger with alcohol
and lose themselves in wine.
They reel when they see visions
and stagger as they render decisions.
8 Their tables are covered with vomit;
filth is everywhere.
9 “Who does the Lord think we are?” they ask.
“Why does he speak to us like this?
Are we little children,
just recently weaned?
10 He tells us everything over and over—
one line at a time,
one line at a time,
a little here,
and a little there!”

11 So now God will have to speak to his people
through foreign oppressors who speak a strange language!
12 God has told his people,
“Here is a place of rest;
let the weary rest here.
This is a place of quiet rest.”
But they would not listen.
13 So the Lord will spell out his message for them again,
one line at a time,
one line at a time,
a little here,
and a little there,
so that they will stumble and fall.
They will be injured, trapped, and captured.

They are such drunks they are like babies, and like babies God will speak to them, so that they fall and are captured.

This is not an instruction for how to interpret the Bible.

I look at the genre of a passage, whether it be narrative, as of Jesus going to pray, then choosing His disciples, or it be teaching, whom he foreknew He also predestinated, whom He predistinated He called, and so forth.

Narrative Scripture tells us what happened, and there may be teaching included, as Jesus taught His disciples, and the people, and that teaching is included in the narrative of what happened.

First and foremost, I look to the passages that are specifically given for teaching, and generally speaking what I find in them presents a cohesive teaching that is supported throughout.

Looking at a narrative passage, and concluding that this means it will happen this way with everyone, I think leads into error.

Jesus called His disciples before the cross. He breathed the Spirit into them before the resurrection. They were baptised in the Spirit with the others. These were all singular events, that have not been repeated.

As an example, when Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into the disciples, He gave them the same commission He Himself had, and gave them the same authority to forgive sins that He had. Who else has been given the authority on earth to forgive sins, aside from Jesus, and then His apostles? I know of no one.

Conversing with you has been very useful, in demonstrating to me how far I have come in 'adopting' the eastern mindset.

Some things are kept hidden as God does not force things onto us, and it is He who reveals them not our intellect.

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Matt. 11:25

May He reveal His truth to us all!

So where were the thousands that had been following Jesus already, feeding on the fish and bread after sitting listening to His teachings?

Acts 2:41 KJV
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

So for instance, these people, where do I find teaching that these were not actually baptizd into Jesus Christ's death, and risen again with Him, dead to sin?

I had asked about the status of those who were baptized. Did you consider the question I was asking? What happened to them? An initial encounter where they received illumination? Where they actually baptized into Jesus' death and resurrection?

Agreed, but obviously from various instances in scripture, there were two classes that were in communication with Jesus, even Judas. I think there is a difference between having the dealings of the Holy Spirit, where He works for a short time within us and Him dwelling inside of us.

I don't think the Spirit indwelled anyone before the cross, and before the resurrection, in the way He does with us today. Remember, Jesus lived under the dispensation of the Law and the Prophets, the covenant of obedience God made with Israel at Mt. Horeb.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Agreed.
I do understand better having the sin nature instead of speaking about the flesh.
My understanding is that our sin nature (the effect of Adam's sin which scars us) is what makes the flesh sin.
But however one wants to understand this, I do agree with your statements above.

It's not even so much that we're driving a wrecked car,
but that it's possible to get into an accident.

Having looked at every place "flesh" (sarx) or "body" (soma) appears in the NT, I've come to realize that the corruption of the flesh is exactly that. The body is damaged.

I think "flesh" has a consistent use throughout the NT, the stuff we are made of, flesh and bone, of or pertaining to flesh. The same with "body", the body of sin, "who will transform our vile body", again, consistent throughout.

I agree with you, the "scar" of Adam's sin is a corruption that causes us to sin. I think that corruption is damage to the brain that causes it to not work right. As a sufferer of cPTSD, I've had lots of occassion to observe this, and research about it. Growing up during continuing trauma causes the brain to malform, so that the cognitive functions are depressed, or perverted (bent wrong), producing poor decision making, poor emotional control, all sorts of things.

I think the Bible teaches this very simply. I suggest a word study of both these words, flesh and body, to see how they are used, and that the usage is consistent.

Serving God (being Holy) doesn't mean that we just stop doing evil/bad....
but that we actually will do good in order to increase the Kingdom of God and make life here on earth better - at least for
the few that we're able to have influence upon.

Agreed!

You say that walking in the spirit means we are not sinning....

Actually it's the Bible that says that. If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

I just like to be careful to note that we can and do sin and that it is US that are sinning and it actually IS happening...
but I agree that the Spirit gives us the love necessary to have self-control - which should not be a hardship due to the love we have for our Savior - and our sin nature is under submission and does not rule our life.

For me, how much I love God doesn't seem to matter to how much self control I have. I deal with compulsions and obsessions, and these are real and strong forces within me. At least so they seem! Because in fact God has declared they are now powerless. They don't seem powerless, at least, at times, but the reality is, when I am trusting in God in His love and acceptance, their powerlessness is revealed, as their influence stops, and I'm as free of them as I was during my time of walking consistently in the Spirit.

For me, self control is a very difficult thing, unless I'm walking in the Spirit, when it becomes natural to me, I don't have to think much about it. Remind myself when I start to notice the flesh pulling at me.

I think when we become distracted by circumstances, within or without, we can stop walking in the Spirit, having stopped trusting God for everything, and then we may commit sins.

But being in Christ, those sins do not separate us from God. It's easy to think that they do, and then feel like we are separated and have to restore our connection to Him, get right again, however, we are reconciled to God by what Jesus did, not be anything we do or don't do. So our reconciliation is as unchanging as Jesus is.

We are forever maturing and getting better and better and becoming more and more sensitive to sin so as to commit it less and less.

Amen! May it be so!!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Walking in the flesh means that we are following our old man....giving in to every temptation which is awakened constantly by our sin nature and thus we sin.

2 Corinthians 10:2-3 KJV
2) But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
3) For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

Paul wrote in terms of that we live in flesh, but not according to flesh.

Before we are regenerated, this is all we are, a flesh body, with its fleshy soul, as you've said, the mind, will, emotions. When we are regenerated, we now have a living spirit. The soul - psuche - having been produced by the flesh body of sin, is to be renewed to be like the mind of Christ.

The brain, in it's circuits and chemicals and all, still runs the same way, like a computer that needs new programing. When we see a salacious picture, the fleshy brain responds like it always has, and we experience forbidden desire, until we've reprogammed the brain differently, or unless we are not walking according to flesh, because we are walking in the Spirit.

It seems to me that when we are reborn, we each see various changes, but then other changes seem to wait as grow.

I've come to think that Theosis, while being wonderful, is actually less than being trained to walk in the Spirit by faith. That having it done for me is fantastic, but actually participating in the process is better because it's more transformative.

At the time is was a "black box", a great result, but I didn't understand. Now I think I do understand, and now as I focus on God's love for me, and His acceptance of me, this lifts me out of the mess I otherwise live in.

I've continued to find healing that comes over the course of time, but this kind of faith lifts me up in that very moment, to walk above the corruption.

Much love!

 

[marks]

1 John 1:8: If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us

@GodsGrace

1 John 1 KJV
5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

John is writing with inclusive language. He is not saying that he is a liar, he's not saying that he's making God a liar, he's not saying he had deceived himself.

In the context, "the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, that is, if we say, I don't need cleansing from sin, I don't have any, it's not true. If we confess our sins, He forgives and cleanses.

And of course he goes on, I write these things that you may not sin. That's the goal. Not sinning.

John is not saying that all Christians will continue to sin. He's saying, everyone has sin, and if you say you don't you are a liar, and you make God a liar. But if you say you do have sin (confess - say the same thing), God will forgive you for that sin, and cleanse you from that sin.

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

So do they think they perhaps have misinterpreted this one verse @GodsGrace ?

Amen!

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

Having looked at every place "flesh" (sarx) or "body" (soma) appears in the NT, I've come to realize that the corruption of the flesh is exactly that. The body is damaged.

I understand you very well.
But something is just slightly off and I'd like to just discuss it for a few posts and then stop.
You checked out what flesh means in every instance where it's used.
And you've come to the conclusion that the BODY is damaged.

So what is THE FLESH...THE BODY?
The flesh = carnal
carnal = of meat

Jesus said UNLESS YOU EAT MY FLESH.....He meant the meat of His body.
Galatians 5:19-21 speaks of works of the flesh:
SEXUAL IMMORALITY
IDOLATRY
JEALOUSY
ANGER
etc.

Now think a minute....
Can the meat on your body, your flesh, cause you to sin?
Is it alive? Does it move and have power?
No. It's just meat/flesh.

I think "flesh" has a consistent use throughout the NT, the stuff we are made of, flesh and bone, of or pertaining to flesh. The same with "body", the body of sin, "who will transform our vile body", again, consistent throughout.

The body, our whole being, is a body of sin.
But now consider this:
How is man made up?
Some believe man is a dichotomy and some believe man is a trichotomy.
I like the trichotomy sample better because it makes more sense but the dichotomy is also not wrong.

Man is made up of 3 parts:
BODY
SOUL
SPIRIT

The body is our flesh part....all that you see that makes up a human...all his body parts.
The soul is the unseen part of our humanity, it's what makes us be human: mind, will, emotions.
The spirit is what unites our humanity to God and makes us taste a bit of heaven.

When we become born again, our spirit becomes alive.
Our spirit has an effect on our soul. It can effect our very mind, our will, our emotions.
Our SOUL is what moves our body parts. It can effect our brain, our desires, our very movements.

Our body, our flesh, has no power on its own other than what the soul supplies to it.

I agree with you, the "scar" of Adam's sin is a corruption that causes us to sin.

This scar is the sin nature....that nature we have before being born again that causes us to sin.
It's a corruption, as you've said...but it effects our soul, not our body.
Our body, of its own, has no power.
Our soul and its scar is what moves our body/flesh.

I think that corruption is damage to the brain that causes it to not work right. As a sufferer of cPTSD, I've had lots of occassion to observe this, and research about it. Growing up during continuing trauma causes the brain to malform, so that the cognitive functions are depressed, or perverted (bent wrong), producing poor decision making, poor emotional control, all sorts of things.

OK. I agree with this. In some cases it's actual brain damage - damage to the body - that causes problems.
But in every day "normal" humans (as normal as anyone can be!) the brain functions well but the soul causes the brain to desire and to be, corrupted...but the corruption is caused by something unseen...the soul.

I think the Bible teaches this very simply. I suggest a word study of both these words, flesh and body, to see how they are used, and that the usage is consistent.

Yes. I studied this many years ago and it's helped me a lot to understand our nature.
I'm conveying it to you because I found it so helpful...I'm not here to convince you of anything.
However you understand this is a gift from God since so many are blind to understanding how their very being works.
I think we Christians are very fortunate.

Agreed!


Actually it's the Bible that says that. If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Try this: If we walk in the spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the soul.
The FLESH has no lusts unless our soul supplies them.

For me, how much I love God doesn't seem to matter to how much self control I have. I deal with compulsions and obsessions, and these are real and strong forces within me. At least so they seem!

No. They actually are. I have a granddaughter that's on the autism spectrum and she has a difficult time controlling her emotions.
This is why I take the liberty of defining some human beings as normal - because I know what NOT normal looks like -- and it's tough.
She also loves God and this is soothing for her - because we're built to be close to our creator. I do believe that you have more self-control due to your faith in God and your belief that He's near to you.

Because in fact God has declared they are now powerless. They don't seem powerless, at least, at times, but the reality is, when I am trusting in God in His love and acceptance, their powerlessness is revealed, as their influence stops, and I'm as free of them as I was during my time of walking consistently in the Spirit.

Yes. Amen to this.

For me, self control is a very difficult thing, unless I'm walking in the Spirit, when it becomes natural to me, I don't have to think much about it. Remind myself when I start to notice the flesh pulling at me.

Understood.

I think when we become distracted by circumstances, within or without, we can stop walking in the Spirit, having stopped trusting God for everything, and then we may commit sins.

This is perfectly correct. Sinning means missing the mark.
We miss the mark when we take our eyes off the target.
Peter was walking on the water.
When he NOTICED he was walking on the water, he became afraid and began to sink/drown.

But being in Christ, those sins do not separate us from God. It's easy to think that they do, and then feel like we are separated and have to restore our connection to Him, get right again, however, we are reconciled to God by what Jesus did, not be anything we do or don't do. So our reconciliation is as unchanging as Jesus is.

Agreed. Very good explanation.
We are never separated from God unless we WANT to be separated from Him.
Sin is not the separating factor UNLESS we wantonly live a life of sin.
God will not be mocked.

Amen! May it be so!!

Much love!

Ditto.

 

[GodsGrace]

2 Corinthians 10:2-3 KJV
2) But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
3) For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

Paul wrote in terms of that we live in flesh, but not according to flesh.

Before we are regenerated, this is all we are, a flesh body, with its fleshy soul, as you've said, the mind, will, emotions. When we are regenerated, we now have a living spirit. The soul - psuche - having been produced by the flesh body of sin, is to be renewed to be like the mind of Christ.

The brain, in it's circuits and chemicals and all, still runs the same way, like a computer that needs new programing. When we see a salacious picture, the fleshy brain responds like it always has, and we experience forbidden desire, until we've reprogammed the brain differently, or unless we are not walking according to flesh, because we are walking in the Spirit.

It seems to me that when we are reborn, we each see various changes, but then other changes seem to wait as grow.

I've come to think that Theosis, while being wonderful, is actually less than being trained to walk in the Spirit by faith. That having it done for me is fantastic, but actually participating in the process is better because it's more transformative.

At the time is was a "black box", a great result, but I didn't understand. Now I think I do understand, and now as I focus on God's love for me, and His acceptance of me, this lifts me out of the mess I otherwise live in.

I've continued to find healing that comes over the course of time, but this kind of faith lifts me up in that very moment, to walk above the corruption.

Much love!

Agreed on all.
Even the part about participating in the process of becoming better.
And it becomes easier and easier as we keep our focus on Jesus and seek to follow Him.
And let's not forget that it's the Holy Spirit that gives us the hope and strength to follow our Lord.

 

[marks]

And let's not forget that it's the Holy Spirit that gives us the hope and strength to follow our Lord.

Amen, and,

Philippians 2:13 KJV
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I understand you very well.
But something is just slightly off and I'd like to just discuss it for a few posts and then stop.
You checked out what flesh means in every instance where it's used.
And you've come to the conclusion that the BODY is damaged.

So what is THE FLESH...THE BODY?
The flesh = carnal
carnal = of meat

Damage to the brain causes us to made bad choices. This is a well known fact. Making bad choices reinforces itself biologically in the brain.

The corruption of the flesh is a particular thing or circumstance or condition. I hear about the "sin nature", but I don't find that term anywhere in the Bible. I do find that people and things have a "nature", which is to say, the properties and characteristics inherent to them.

In Romans 1, people do or don't act according to the natural use. In Romans 2, when Gentiles by nature do the things in the Law. Romans 11, the tree that is wild by nature, or contrast to the natural branches.

The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit. Why? It's not in his nature. Galatians 2, we who are Jews by nature. Ephesians 2, were by nature children of wrath. Hebrews 2, He took not upon Him the nature of angels.

I see a very consistent use of "nature" in Scripture to in this way, describing the properties and characteristics of people.

What is the nature of something that isn't actually a thing? A rock is hard, heavy, as it's nature. But is there a nature of hard and heaviness without the rock?

One more reference:

2 Peter 1:4 KJV
4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Is there a "divine nature" that exists apart from God? Or does "divine nature" refer to the properties and characteristics of God Himself?

When we talk about "sin nature" (again, a term that does not appear in Scripture), we are talking about something separate from ourselves that imposes upon us so that we are under it's power.

To me it is evident that "divine nature" is emphatically not some separate force from God that imposes upon Him.

So that leads me back to, we live in flesh bodies, and these have a nature. In some instances our nature actually leads us to do things that God requires in His law. But overall, our nature puts us under God's wrath, because it's in our nature to sin.

Flesh is the meat, and body is this collection of meat. The fleshy body contains a brain, and that brain produces a mind, a soul, that collection of desires and memories and choices and values and feelings and thoughts

Jesus said UNLESS YOU EAT MY FLESH.....He meant the meat of His body.

Exactly - the meat of His body - not a "sin nature". Flesh nowhere means something other than the physicality of one's existance, whether refering to the meat that clothes your bones, or your people according to the flesh, things like that, related to our physical existance.

Galatians 5:19-21 speaks of works of the flesh:
SEXUAL IMMORALITY
IDOLATRY
JEALOUSY
ANGER
etc.

Yes, we are taught concerning the works of the flesh, the deceiptful lusts of the flesh, how the lusts of the flesh war against the S/spirit. Colossians goes even further, "put to death your members upon the earth, and goes on to list the sins produced, as if they were one and the same. "Your members" is literally "body parts". Kill your body parts that are on the earth.

He'd just written that we were hid with Christ in God, in heaven, to be revealed when He is. Now we are to kill our body parts that are on the earth.

Regeneration produces a new creature with a new nature, according to Ephesians 4:24, recreated patterned after God, in righteousness and true holiness.

And again Peter tells us how we can partake in the divine nature, how we can live a new life that comes from what God is like instead of what we used to be like.

Now think a minute....
Can the meat on your body, your flesh, cause you to sin?
Is it alive? Does it move and have power?
No. It's just meat/flesh.

As previously mentioned, damage to the cerebral cortex damages your executive functions. I knew a man many years ago who did things he'd have never done before his head injury.

The mind is the software, and the brain is the hardware. And as I understand it, there are more neurons in your body outside of your brain than inside it, particularly in the gut region.

I think what we see as "mental disease" is more of the same as "corruption of the flesh", only to such a degree that it is more easily seen.

In cPTSD, the initial corruption we are all born with (in varying degrees, I think) is greatly added to. But even a childhood that doesn't have the ongoing trauma, parents sin and that effects us, others sin, we sin, it all affects us, incrementally adding its own corruption. Tell a lie and get away with it, and the next one is easier, because of the reward circuit. Dopamine and dendrites reward you for successfully repeated behaviors, whether for good or evil.

And something in us - before regeneration - insures that sins are chosen.

God's answer to us is to "be transformed by the renewing of your mind", and, "put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him", and,

Ephesians 4:22-23 KJV
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Having died in Christ we've been separated from our flesh being born of the Spirit. That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of spirit is spirit.

Romans 8:9-10 KJV
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

We've moved from life that is derived from our bodies to life that is derived from the Holy Spirit. But our bodies are our tools for use in this world, and they have some well worn grooves we can easily slip into, and that's why we need to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.

When we become born again, our spirit becomes alive.
Our spirit has an effect on our soul. It can effect our very mind, our will, our emotions.
Our SOUL is what moves our body parts. It can effect our brain, our desires, our very movements.

As we mature in the Lord, I believe our character improves, which is to say our minds are being renewed, and we are growing into this new life.

The more good choices we make, the more our brain biology changes to support those good choices. And even in the case of damage to the fabric of the brain, there can be healing. And the longer we go doing the right things, making the right choices, and in particular in communion with God, the better our character becomes. We are being materially reformed into better people.

At the same time, as we walk in the Spirit, we "advance to the head of the class". What I mean by that is we live in the fulness of maturity, as the flesh is completely overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is our life experience.

In the improving of our character, we develop the characturistics of the fruit of the Spirit over time. In walking in the Spirit, the fulness is now.

OK. I agree with this. In some cases it's actual brain damage - damage to the body - that causes problems.
But in every day "normal" humans (as normal as anyone can be!) the brain functions well

Does it? How well? I don't think so.

Try this: If we walk in the spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the soul.

No, absolutely not.

Galatians 5:16 KJV
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

The flesh has desires, and if you walk in the Spirit, you will not fulfill them.

No. They actually are. I have a granddaughter that's on the autism spectrum and she has a difficult time controlling her emotions.

I'm on the edge of the diagnostic threshhold for Aspergers. Autism runs in my family. I have some nephews that are pretty severe. So I've seen a good bit about that.

This is why I take the liberty of defining some human beings as normal - because I know what NOT normal looks like -- and it's tough.

Just like they've finally determined that Autism presents on a spectrum I think the same is true for people, and no one, absolutely no one, is unscathed. Some more, some less, but we all took the hit.

We sin because we make bad choices, and we make bad choices because there is something wrong with us.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Agreed. Very good explanation.
We are never separated from God unless we WANT to be separated from Him.
Sin is not the separating factor UNLESS we wantonly live a life of sin.
God will not be mocked.

God's precious promise to us is, I will never leave you, nor forsake you. And upon this promise I stand, and in faith in this promise, I walk in the Spirit. He has promised that we have a new life, that He empowers this new life, and that as we choose to live it, He makes it so.

God's precious promise to us is that being our Faithful Father He will chasten us as needed, so that we will be partakers of His holiness.

There is truly nothing that will ever separate us from His love.

Much love!

 

[uncle silas]

I hear about the "sin nature", but I don't find that term anywhere in the Bible.

I imagine you do not read the NIV. Rom7:18&25

 

[marks]

I imagine you do not read the NIV. Rom7:18&25

I don't consider it a generally accurate translation.

18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.



"sin nature" is not a valid translation of "sarki". The translators decided that "sarki" meant "sin nature", and substituted those words for the actual translation, flesh.

There are many examples of this sort of thing in the NIV, which is the primary reason I don't use it. I don't find it to be an accurate translation, as they interpret instead of translate, as they've done here.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Well Ive yet to meet anyone who perfectly without slip, obeys each and every literal applicable command under the NC, have you? I imagine such a person would no longer rely on Christ's shed blood at Calvary, they wouldn't need it, Jesus would become irrelevant in their life.
Unless you accept the bible speaks of sin in two different ways, there will always appear contradictions in the letter of what is written

Imagine someone so broken, so aware of their own shameful propensities, their lack of control, desparate for freedom, clinging to Jesus in the barest hope that He will rescue them, and in this clinging, does not commit the sins they loathe. Do you truly see Jesus becoming irrelevant in such a one?

Much love!