The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[marks]

OK, so you are not a fit judge as to whether the flesh was put away for five weeks

Which is why I've said things like, I believe this is what happened, and, "in my opinion". I'm open to correction. But it needs to be Biblical, not someone's opinion formed out of disbelief.

I know better than to consider myself convinced I lived without sinning in that time, but I can faithfully say I was not aware of any such moment, it seemed seamless to me. And it was the slightest flicker of the flesh, at first, that was noticeable when it had ended, but the difference was astounding. And indelible in my mind.

I'd even begun to wonder if it was in fact going to end. I had actually become dissatisfied, because I have some people whom I love very very much who have similar issues as I do, cPTSD, various mental health things, and, well, there was simply nothing I could say to them!!

I was suffering, they are suffering, "Hey, God touched me and it went away . . . I hope He touches you too!" That felt like nothing to offer! I prayed, and asked God that He would enable me to be able to share this with others. Not long after that prayer, it ended.

Since then I've been learning, studying, praying, testing, how exactly do we walk in the Spirit?

Here's what I've concluded so far.

We trust in Jesus that we are completely and fully reconciled to God, and that since it's based in Him and what He did, not us, our bad behavior does not change these amazing truth. The fact is that God is in the business of transforming us to be the way He wants.

Our concerns are very simply addressed in passages such as this one:

1 John 3:2-3 KJV
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

If you are in fact a child of God now, when He appears, you will become like Him. This belief . . . "every man that has this hope" . . . causes us to purify ourselves, just like Jesus is pure. Isn't that what we want? To be pure as Jesus is pure? This is how we do that. We have the hope, which Biblically speaking, is the certain expectation that is the outcome of our faith.

We believe Jesus, and Jesus promised to raise us from the dead, so we expect that after we have died, that Jesus will raise us up from the dead. Our hope is the resurrection.

In this passage, our hope - what we expect to happen because we believe Jesus, and God's promise - is that we will in fact be like Him when He appears, meaning, we will actually be with Him when He appears. Our fear of being disqualifed from salvation is put to rest. We trust His promise, we trust that He will make sure, when He comes, we are transformed to be fully like Him. And knowing this, we live more pure lives now.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If we perfectly followed after the Holy Spirit for five weeks, and the flesh had no influence whatsoever in our lives during that time, we would perfectly obey/see pertfectly reflected in our lives, without slip the letter of all applicable law, for following after the Holy Spirit does not lead to sin

Yes, I think that's right.

Though of course the OT commandments were a covenant God make with Israel, and specifically them alone, at Mt Horeb. Even so, I'll still maintain, and I'd think you will agree, that if we are trusting God, and loving others, the commandments Jesus gave, that John affirmed, that cover all things, that if we are doing these things, all that should be done is done, and nothing that should not. Do you agree?

Much love!

 

[uncle silas]

Which is why I've said things like, I believe this is what happened, and, "in my opinion". I'm open to correction. But it needs to be Biblical, not someone's opinion formed out of disbelief.

I know better than to consider myself convinced I lived without sinning in that time, but I can faithfully say I was not aware of any such moment, it seemed seamless to me. And it was the slightest flicker of the flesh, at first, that was noticeable when it had ended, but the difference was astounding. And indelible in my mind.

I'd even begun to wonder if it was in fact going to end. I had actually become dissatisfied, because I have some people whom I love very very much who have similar issues as I do, cPTSD, various mental health things, and, well, there was simply nothing I could say to them!!

I was suffering, they are suffering, "Hey, God touched me and it went away . . . I hope He touches you too!" That felt like nothing to offer! I prayed, and asked God that He would enable me to be able to share this with others. Not long after that prayer, it ended.

Since then I've been learning, studying, praying, testing, how exactly do we walk in the Spirit?

Here's what I've concluded so far.

We trust in Jesus that we are completely and fully reconciled to God, and that since it's based in Him and what He did, not us, our bad behavior does not change these amazing truth. The fact is that God is in the business of transforming us to be the way He wants.

Our concerns are very simply addressed in passages such as this one:

1 John 3:2-3 KJV
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

If you are in fact a child of God now, when He appears, you will become like Him. This belief . . . "every man that has this hope" . . . causes us to purify ourselves, just like Jesus is pure. Isn't that what we want? To be pure as Jesus is pure? This is how we do that. We have the hope, which Biblically speaking, is the certain expectation that is the outcome of our faith.

We believe Jesus, and Jesus promised to raise us from the dead, so we expect that after we have died, that Jesus will raise us up from the dead. Our hope is the resurrection.

In this passage, our hope - what we expect to happen because we believe Jesus, and God's promise - is that we will in fact be like Him when He appears, meaning, we will actually be with Him when He appears. Our fear of being disqualifed from salvation is put to rest. We trust His promise, we trust that He will make sure, when He comes, we are transformed to be fully like Him. And knowing this, we live more pure lives now.

Much love!

Please remember, Paul told the phillipians he was not perfect, if he perfectly without deviation followed aftyer the Holy Spirit he would have been. And John tells us if we claim to be without sin we are deceived, and the truth is not in us. That knowledge does not mean we sit back and rest in sin BTW. And yes I agree, we trust in Jesus we are completely reconciled to God. A wonderful assurance

 

[uncle silas]

Yes, I think that's right.

Though of course the OT commandments were a covenant God make with Israel, and specifically them alone, at Mt Horeb. Even so, I'll still maintain, and I'd think you will agree, that if we are trusting God, and loving others, the commandments Jesus gave, that John affirmed, that cover all things, that if we are doing these things, all that should be done is done, and nothing that should not. Do you agree?

Much love!

Yes, as Paul stated
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfill the law of Christ. Gal6:2
But the standard of our love would have to be very high wouldn't it. Jesus gave us examples of loving others

 

[marks]

BTW, I think much of this subject comes down to the level of law we are conscious of. Some people only have a shallow understanding of the TC for example. I have often seen this. So, they may say they fully obey the letter of those commands, yet Paul stated to born again Christians the letter of the TC kills. Would you agree with that?

All that is not of faith is sin. That's a pretty big net, and goes way beyond the 10 commandments, or the Sermon on the Mount, or any list of Biblical laws (aside from the Law of Christ, which is the Law of Love) you'd care to assemble.

Walk fully in faith and you will not sin. All that is not of faith is sin. This is definitive. Consider that carefully. "What is not of faith" defines sin. What does that tell you about faith? What does that tell you about not sinning?

Trying to obey the Law removes you from faith, because you are making your own efforts at keeping Laws which will only condemn you.

To your question, yes, if someone fails to understand God's command, they may not realize when they fall short of it. For me, this isn't a matter of looking at my behavior, even before I act or don't act I can see in myself whether I'm walking in faith or not. When I look.

That's the thing. Something else I've concluded is that we may walk in the Spirit, then something triggers our flesh, and we're not ready for it, or for whatever reason, find ourselves walking according to our flesh, without realizing it. And the sooner we can realize that's happened, the sooner we can go back into the Spirit.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So when we do not follow after the Spirit, but succumb to the flesh, as we all do at times, are we still in a saved state when we do that?

Certainly, why wouldn't we be? If we are the children of God, it's because we've been justified in Christ, having died and risen with Him. Our reconciliation to God is because we believed, and we received, but God justified, and God recreated us, because of what Jesus did, not us.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

If you have the time to watch the last video (I listen on 1.5 speed) you will hear that our English versions miss certain important things in the translations.

I don't mean to offend, but this looks to me like someone applying their intellect to the scriptures rather than just allowing those scriptures to teach them. The natural man (carnal mind/intellect) cannot perceive the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. People either don't have the Spirit and therefore can't rely on the Spirit and are left with nothing but their own natural mind to rely on, or they have the Spirit but are not relying on Him but on their own mind.

That gentleman is arguing that it's important to translate the words for operation/working of God as energy in order to link it with the concept of synergy as applied to our relationship with God. So I looked up the definition for synergy: "the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects." This is not biblical....it's not how it works between God and man. Bible says, "We have this treasure in our jars of clay, that the excellency may be of God", not of us at all. "His strength is made perfect in our weakness." "Be still (at rest) and know that I am God." We are just the vessel, not adding anything to the working of God, but simply being available for His use. And the Lord can and does often work sovereignly without the agency of a human vessel without any lessening or diminishment of effects.

Also the speaker is wanting to use the word energy with respect to "essence" of God, when by his own admission the word essence is not even used in the NT at all (not in Greek or English). So I just can't agree with all of this. I consider God's nature is His essence if we still want to use that term, which the bible says we are partakers of. However it is HIS in His own right, which is what makes Him God, whereas we are only the happy partakers of it, or sharers in it....like the moon only reflects the glory of the Sun (which has its own glory) but doesn't have any glory of its own. That's how I think of it and it's the best I can do with this, hope it makes sense.

 

[marks]

When I responded to an altar call at the age of ten, the most noticeable difference in my life then was, I became aware/conscious of my shortcomings before God in a very real and profound way. It was, a cut off if you like from how I had lived before that. When I told fibs(as kids do) I felt bad, if I had unkind thoughts about others I felt bad too. I was conscious I didn't love others as I should. If I got angry I felt bad. Before I responded to an altar call it was just different, I did feel bad about some things at times, but not as I did once I asked Christ into my life. I often wonder, if all christians feel bad about those kind of things, or just brush them off.
One woman who insisted the law must be obeyed told me thoughts were trivial and not covered by Torah. That's just an example

I think that we are NOT changed, we need to question whether we've been reborn.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That gentleman is arguing that it's important to translate the words for operation/working of God as energy in order to link it with the concept of synergy as applied to our relationship with God. So I looked up the definition for synergy: "the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects." This is not biblical....it's not how it works between God and man.

Philippians 2:12-13 KJV
12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work (katergadzomai - performance of) out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13) For it is God which worketh (ergon - works) in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

My understanding is that God works into us the desire and the ability to please Him, and we are responsible to take that and use it. Not choose against what we know God has given us the power to do. And we have to wait for His transforming work in us so that we will be capable. I think this is something we can know.

Also the speaker is wanting to use the word energy with respect to "essence" of God, when by his own admission the word essence is not even used in the NT at all (not in Greek or English). So I just can't agree with all of this. I consider God's nature is His essence if we still want to use that term, which the bible says we are partakers of. However it is HIS in His own right, which is what makes Him God, whereas we are only the happy partakers of it, or sharers in it....like the moon only reflects the glory of the Sun (which has its own glory) but doesn't have any glory of its own. That's how I think of it and it's the best I can do with this, hope it makes sense.

2 Corinthians 3:18 KJV
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Literally Out of glory, into glory, I think this refers to the changing into the same image. We see the glory of the Lord, reflected dimly, but this is transformative, and His glory becomes our glory.

As I understand these . . .

Much love!

 

[marks]

but one written on tablets of human hearts(2Cor3:3)

Actually, that's not what Paul wrote.

2 Corinthians 3:1-4 KJV
1) Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2) Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4) And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

Do we need to have letters to carry so you will know we are commended? Or do we need you to write letters commending us to others? No. Because you yourselves are our letter of commendation. Not a letter written with ink and paper, but written by the Spirit, not on stone tablets, like the Law, but in the heart (Paul's heart).

This passage does not tell us that the Law is written on our hearts. Rather, their letter of commendation is, and not by men, but by the Spirit.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, as Paul stated
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfill the law of Christ. Gal6:2
But the standard of our love would have to be very high wouldn't it. Jesus gave us examples of loving others

I understand Christian love refers to one's heartfelt desire and commitment towards the complete wellbeing of the beloved. It's a life devotion, that requires one deny themself.

Much love!

 

[marks]

May I give you a list of what it would take to be sinless?

You never did answer my question . . .

Are you able to focus on God's love for you, and the redemtion He's purchased for you, and think of some Scripture, or maybe sing a hymn to yourself, or outloud, to pray for someone, to pray thanks to God, all the while trusting that He will keep you from sin, for maybe 5 minutes' time?

If having done that, are you able to repeat that exercise for maybe another 5 minutes?

I think by trusting in God fully and completely for everything, this ushers us into walking in the Spirit, where we do not sin. But we get triggered in our flesh, and distracted back into it, so easily! But not as easily as we once did! At least, that's my goal. So far so good!

Much love!

 

[marks]

And yes I agree, we trust in Jesus we are completely reconciled to God. A wonderful assurance

Wonderful! Never to fall away?

Much love!

 

[uncle silas]

Actually, that's not what Paul wrote.

2 Corinthians 3:1-4 KJV
1) Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2) Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4) And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

Do we need to have letters to carry so you will know we are commended? Or do we need you to write letters commending us to others? No. Because you yourselves are our letter of commendation. Not a letter written with ink and paper, but written by the Spirit, not on stone tablets, like the Law, but in the heart (Paul's heart).

This passage does not tell us that the Law is written on our hearts. Rather, their letter of commendation is, and not by men, but by the Spirit.

Much love!

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. Rom2:14&15

 

[uncle silas]

Actually, that's not what Paul wrote.

2 Corinthians 3:1-4 KJV
1) Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2) Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4) And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

Do we need to have letters to carry so you will know we are commended? Or do we need you to write letters commending us to others? No. Because you yourselves are our letter of commendation. Not a letter written with ink and paper, but written by the Spirit, not on stone tablets, like the Law, but in the heart (Paul's heart).

This passage does not tell us that the Law is written on our hearts. Rather, their letter of commendation is, and not by men, but by the Spirit.

Much love!

Don't be pinickety, it fits in perfectly with the core foundation upon which the NC stands, and Rom2:14&15, AND the NIV
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

 

[uncle silas]

You never did answer my question . . .

Are you able to focus on God's love for you, and the redemtion He's purchased for you, and think of some Scripture, or maybe sing a hymn to yourself, or outloud, to pray for someone, to pray thanks to God, all the while trusting that He will keep you from sin, for maybe 5 minutes' time?

If having done that, are you able to repeat that exercise for maybe another 5 minutes?

I think by trusting in God fully and completely for everything, this ushers us into walking in the Spirit, where we do not sin. But we get triggered in our flesh, and distracted back into it, so easily! But not as easily as we once did! At least, that's my goal. So far so good!

Much love!

As sin is(not was) the transgression of the law, if you want to be sinless you will have to see the letter of all applicable law perfectly adhered to in your life to be sinless. That's according to the biblical definition of sin. You can speak of love and faith, and so you should, but perfect adherence to what if broken is sin, is how you would measure if you are committing sin or not

 

[uncle silas]

Wonderful! Never to fall away?

Much love!

Read the parable of the sower!

 

[marks]

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. Rom2:14&15

Interesting, "accusing" is in the active voice, something they do to others, while "defending" is in the middle voice, that is, they are defending themselves.

This passage is telling us that even the Gentiles, who don't have Israel's law, yet do those things required by the law, have the requirements of the law written on their hearts. And in they the excuse themselves, while accusing others, but still showing a sense of right and wrong.

This is spoken concerning the Gentiles in general, and specifically concerning God's judging of all men, whether or not they were given the Law that Israel was given.

Much love!

 

[uncle silas]

Interesting, "accusing" is in the active voice, something they do to others, while "defending" is in the middle voice, that is, they are defending themselves.

This passage is telling us that even the Gentiles, who don't have Israel's law, yet do those things required by the law, have the requirements of the law written on their hearts. And in they the excuse themselves, while accusing others, but still showing a sense of right and wrong.

This is spoken concerning the Gentiles in general, and specifically concerning God's judging of all men, whether or not they were given the Law that Israel was given.

Much love!

Under the core terms of the NC applicable law is written in the mind and placed on the heart of every believer. What is in your mind you in your mind must know, what is in your heart you in your heart want to follow(the flesh is another matter) hence rom2:14&15

 

[uncle silas]

This passage does not teach the "law written on human hearts." If you think I'm mistaken, show the passage, and show me where it says that.

I'm very picky about what I'll believe in terms of interpreting passages. I stand by what is written. If it's not written, well, what can I say?

Much love!

Just read the NIV for that verse, or, the core foundation upon which the NC stands:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b]
17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more. Heb10:16&17