The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Hepzibah]

Sister....I believe we are saved from wrath and regenerated in the inner man when we come to faith in Christ with faith not of our own. We were reconciled and restored to God through Christ. This was our experience and testimony, and many of us (I hope most) also received a baptism of the Holy Spirit either at the same time or sometime after.

Sister, we are not far apart in our beliefs. However, the timing is an issue. If anyone had told me that I had received the Holy Spirit when I first believed, and was convinced reading scripture that I had indeed been saved, plus the church told me so, I would have argued to the death!

What we have been through is indeed earth shattering. But we must stick to scripture as you so often rightly say.

But all that I regard as betrothal and not the consummation of the marriage. And betrothal is a contractual covenant that is as binding as the marriage itself. Betrothal is a time of promise and preparation....the promises that are yes and amen.......which we then are tasked with "apprehending." Already ours by promise but we also are on the journey to get hold of them in fact. I think different people may be talking about the same thing but have different understanding in the details and God sometimes using different scriptures to light the way for each person.

I think you'll agree with this....that a big part of the journey that I'm seeing (and experiencing) has to do with how deep and thorough is our repentance. When we first came to faith we hardly even knew what sin was much less how utterly and thoroughly sinful we really are. Because it's not just about the obvious outer sins, it's about inner things and inadvertent sins that most of us aren't even aware of without allowing the light of the Lord searching our inward parts....because He desires truth in our inward parts, not just outward. Rending of our heart, not just our garments. This is washing the inside of our cup, not just the outside. It goes to the depths of our soul and the root of our sin crying out to God for deliverance and a cutting off of that root. And this is what bridal intimacy is all about, as the Lord gave me understanding. We can't become His "wife", in this life at least, without it. And I think (and hope) it will culminate in something that Oswald Chambers wrote...that sanctification itself has to be sanctified, ie, we must "deliberately give Him our sanctified life" as His possession for His service.

Amen to this! It is a time of betrothal indeed, the marriage is not yet. So the same pattern of the order of salvation is agreed on - mainly. But this view of yours contradicts your idea of not mixing things. And especially not mixing things of the Spirit.

The cleansing starts when we first believe, and continues to the spot in time when it has been fulfilled - in this life and we are joined with Christ. I hope you agree there. So glad you have read Oswald Chambers one of my initial influencers.

But indeed the depth and thoroughness of our repentance has to be worked towards, until we are ready to be the bride. How much is lost by God's people when they keep it in a future of mists instead of seeing that it is ours by inheritance today.

I think this is pictured by the indentured slave being set free in the Sabbath year, but if he loves his Master he may from his own free will, covenant to remain as His slave/servant and have his ear pierced at the Master's doorway. And of course this can only be transacted in the spirit, God bringing each soul to that place. (Can't be done without His spirit, as if it were a mere ritual or mental choice.)

Anyway, just wanted to share my personal understanding of this so far, though I believe God may use different ways and different scriptures to show truth to different people.

Anyway, I just want to give all of what I believe God has shown me by His Spirit before my time is up. In human terms it is not far away and my task will have been fulfilled.

 

[Lizbeth]

Sister, we are not far apart in our beliefs. However, the timing is an issue. If anyone had told me that I had received the Holy Spirit when I first believed, and was convinced reading scripture that I had indeed been saved, plus the church told me so, I would have argued to the death!

What we have been through is indeed earth shattering. But we must stick to scripture as you so often rightly say.



Amen to this! It is a time of betrothal indeed, the marriage is not yet. So the same pattern of the order of salvation is agreed on - mainly. But this view of yours contradicts your idea of not mixing things. And especially not mixing things of the Spirit.

The cleansing starts when we first believe, and continues to the spot in time when it has been fulfilled - in this life and we are joined with Christ. I hope you agree there. So glad you have read Oswald Chambers one of my initial influencers.

But indeed the depth and thoroughness of our repentance has to be worked towards, until we are ready to be the bride. How much is lost by God's people when they keep it in a future of mists instead of seeing that it is ours by inheritance today.


Anyway, I just want to give all of what I believe God has shown me by His Spirit before my time is up. In human terms it is not far away and my task will have been fulfilled.

God bless you in this aging process sister.....it isn't an easy time of life, as I'm finding out too. But I believe God is making use of it to further purge and purify, and turning it to our spiritual good. Stay encouraged. I find the Psalms so encouraging. David wrote about being compassed about with the heels of our iniquity (which is in our flesh), yet the Lord will not leave our souls in the grave....and He will be our guide until death.

The reason I'm talking about an initial baptism of the spirit is because the apostles in scripture appeared to have been going around laying hands and praying for everyone who had come to faith in Christ (and been water baptized into Christ most of them) to receive the Holy Spirit. These were new believers, not yet matured and having had a time in the wilderness etc. So that is why I'm thinking it is not what we are talking about here. And because I have experienced that baptism in the spirit "since I believed" as have many others. It seems to be part and parcel of the initial stage of belief, not necessarily immediately (it was more than 10 years later for me) but still part of the initial betrothal - it is the bride price and down payment to seal the betrothal covenant (promise) for the "marriage" to come. Jesus was water baptized and then the Spirit came upon Him and not until after that was He led into the wilderness by the Spirit....that seems to be the right pattern.

I don't know what your "coming to faith " experience was like.....was it a kind of miraculous encounter of revelation and suddenly seeing the truth? and kind of suddenly being turned around and put in a new direction in life? Maybe you weren't in churches that taught and embraced the Holy Spirit and so that is why you didn't receive an initial baptism in the Spirit....?

 

[Hepzibah]

God bless you in this aging process sister.....it isn't an easy time of life, as I'm finding out too.

Sister, I am not suffering from aging - that problem I have found, is mainly due to the unhealthy western diet and the pills taken to alleviate the symptoms, as I have eaten an organic whole food diet for 42 years. No, my illness is due to childhood trauma, mercury poisoning and Lyme Disease otherwise I would have been as fit as a fiddle which I found amongst the elderly in the health food shops I used to inhabit until they were overcome by hypermarkets. But thank you anyway for the empathy.

But I believe God is making use of it to further purge and purify, and turning it to our spiritual good. Stay encouraged. I find the Psalms so encouraging. David wrote about being compassed about with the heels of our iniquity (which is in our flesh), yet the Lord will not leave our souls in the grave....and He will be our guide until death.

Thanks again for the encouragement. I had already reached that place of union with Christ, fully purged, and walking in the Spirit while not slipping into the flesh. However the Lord deemed it suitable for me to not be in that state whilst I am healing fully.

The reason I'm talking about an initial baptism of the spirit is because the apostles in scripture appeared to have been going around laying hands and praying for everyone who had come to faith in Christ (and been water baptized into Christ most of them) to receive the Holy Spirit. These were new believers, not yet matured and having had a time in the wilderness etc.

Yes but that would not fit in with the teachings of the later church, and my own walk, that they had already been following Christ and not new believers.

So that is why I'm thinking it is not what we are talking about here. And because I have experienced that baptism in the spirit "since I believed" as have many others.

I must disagree sister, in that once one is Spirit baptized they display fruit as in scripture and live the sermon on the mount life.

It seems to be part and parcel of the initial stage of belief, not necessarily immediately (it was more than 10 years later for me) but still part of the initial betrothal - it is the bride price and down payment to seal the betrothal covenant (promise) for the "marriage" to come. Jesus was water baptized and then the Spirit came upon Him and not until after that was He led into the wilderness by the Spirit....that seems to be the right pattern.

I think that it could be the same as when the disciples had the Spirit breathed upon them but I will give this some more thought.

I don't know what your "coming to faith " experience was like.....was it a kind of miraculous encounter of revelation and suddenly seeing the truth? and kind of suddenly being turned around and put in a new direction in life? Maybe you weren't in churches that taught and embraced the Holy Spirit and so that is why you didn't receive an initial baptism in the Spirit....?

Yes it was miraculous after an atheistic upbringing when I met two 'born again's' who witnessed to me at the age of 23 and it changed my whole life in an instant, one evening on Sept 23rd 1973. I knew that Christ had died for me as His presence filled my room.

I was told that I had been baptized in the Spirit but that really happened 17 years later, accompanied with the fruit of the Spirit in its fullness.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Lizbeth @marks @GodsGrace @MatthewG

Romans 7.

In returning to Romans 7, the correct interpretation of which is vital for one wishing to understand the doctrine this thread is about, and which is found in the early church writings as Theosis and much later in the west as entire sanctification, I will quote again from the OP:

After all these posts, I'd say it would be a good idea to define THEOSIS.
I say this because I'm no longer certain of what it means for US.

This is from an Orthodox (meaning denomination) site:

Theosis​

The fundamental vocation and goal of each and every person is to share in the life of God. We have been created by God to live in fellowship with Him. The descent of God in the Person of Jesus Christ has made possible the human ascent to the Father through the work of the Holy Spirit. Orthodoxy believes that each Christian is involved in a movement toward God which is known as theosis or deification.

Theosis describes the spiritual pilgrimage in which each person becomes ever more perfect, ever more holy, ever more united with God. It is not a static relationship, nor does it take place only after death. On the contrary, theosis is a movement of love toward God which begins for each Christian with the rites of Baptism and which continues throughout this life, as well as the life which is to come. Salvation means liberation from sin, death, and evil. Redemption means our repossession by God. In Orthodoxy, both salvation and redemption are within the context of theosis. This rich vision of Christian life was expressed well by Saint Peter when he wrote in the early pages of his second Epistle that we are called "to become partakers of the Divine nature." It was also affirmed by Saint Basil the Great when he described man as the creature who has received the order to become a god.

These are certainly bold affirmations which must be properly understood. The Orthodox Church understands theosis as a union with the energies of God and not with the essence of God which always remains hidden and unknown. However, the experience of the Church testifies that this is a true union with God. It is also one which is not pantheistic, because in this union the divine and the human retain their unique characteristics. In this sense, Orthodoxy believes that human life reaches its fulfillment only when it becomes divine.

source: Spirituality | Transfiguration Greek Orthodox Church

I'd appreciate a little help from you:
What does that last line mean?
Before that it seems that we cannot be divine (deification).
The last line seems to say that this is our goal.

Deification in the Early Church

In the introduction to The Study of Holiness from the Early Church Fathers by J. B. Galloway(Wipf and Stock Publishers, 2014), we read: “If the teachings of the modern holiness movement are correct concerning the doctrine of holiness and the baptism with the Holy Ghost as an experience for the saints of God today, perfecting them in Christian love and freeing them form carnal sin, it seems that we should find some evidences of this faith and teachings in the period of the history of the Church where it was the closest to the days of Christ”

I've read some of the ECFs and I don't see deification in their writings....if this is indeed what we're discussing.
In my previous posts I was responding to sanctification and the possibility of complete sanctification...
I THINK that what I posted just above is saying something different - thus, I'm not sure what is being discussed anymore.

What the ECFs that I've read DID say is that work is necessary and that our good deeds are necessary.
(pre-nicene fathers).
No talk of complete sanctification and certainly not deification.
So, I would agree with JD Galloway.

Complete sanctification goes beyond my understanding of what God desires from us.

The ordo salutis or order of salvation, was not as is commonly known in modern times. For the early church unanimously, there were three stages which ended in Theosis or salvation. In effect it was the beginning of the Christian life as laid out in many scriptures which the unbelieving church says is 'position' and not reality.

Ordo salutis smacks of calvinism to me. Which certainly was not a part of the early church.
And as to what you state regarding the early church, (the 3 stages) I don't know what they are and I also don't believe the ECFs ever spoke about a "position" in God, but the actual reality.

The earliest writings take for granted the audience knew what it meant and:

"The earliest analysis of Christian development into these three ‘ways’ or phases derives from Dionysius the Pseudo-Areopagite, who ascribed a rhythm of purification, illumination, and union (or perfection) both to the hierarchies of angels and to the Church on earth. Medieval W. interpreters of Dionysius turned his scheme into an account of spiritual progress in terms of the three ways, beginning with the eradication of bad habits and the cultivation of the virtues, moving on to the illumination of the mind by meditation and contemplation, and culminating in unitive love. These three ways were adopted by later writers such as St John of the Cross and so became classic in systematic theories of Christian spirituality. purgative, illuminative, and unitive ways

Saints in the CC have written about this illumination that is spoken of above.
Monks study these writers and I've read a couple of books...they don't come to mind right now but I could look for them.
They discuss HOW we can become better Christians and achieve high levels of closeness with or to God.
I doubt many persons can reach these levels. One saint would pray and go into trances - I doubt we'd find much of this these days.

St. Gregory Nazianzen, one of the great theologians of the fourth century, calls out to us over the centuries and exhorts us with the following. To quote St. Gregory: “Let us not remain what we are, but let us become what we once were.” And from St. Peter, the chief of the apostles, through the first-century voice of St. Ignatius of Antioch, from Irenaeus of the second century through the great Cappadocian Fathers of the fourth century, of the great Desert Fathers of the fifth century, Maximus the Confessor of the sixth century to John of Damascus and John of The Ladder in the ninth century, from Gregory Palamas in the 14th century to St. Silouan in the 20th century—the great Fathers of our Orthodox Church have echoed this exhortation of St. Gregory, reminding us and ever pointing us to the truth, that by God’s grace we can become much more than we are.

This is true.
We can become MUCH MORE THAN WE ARE.
That's not saying much in view of the fact that we start from the bottom.
But, yes, we certainly are called to become better and more...

Christianity not only teaches that we are to eliminate the bad...
but that we are to cultivate the good.

No problem here. I'm sure we all agree.

1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

@Hepzibah

2 of 2

So it is correct to state that the teachings were that Romans 7 is of an unsaved man. But this is not what unsaved means today because they are saying that this man is undergoing the two earlier stages and has already made a decision to follow Christ, as we see as our examples in the first disciples. He has not reached union with Christ/Theosis which occurred for them when they were baptized by the Spirit at Pentecost and we saw a transformation of them all as they turned the world upside down.

They turned the world upside down because they saw a dead man come back to life.
They were transformed because they finally understood who Jesus was.
As to Romans 7...Isn't it speaking of a saved man that USED to be unsaved?
This is my understanding.
Paul is struggling with sin and trying to understand why he is still sinning.
But he is saved.
(because will we ever be fully freed from sinning? No, I don't believe so and this is confirmed by John).

When this occurs, the church becomes so strong that society is turned upside down as we can see clearly in church history, and we hear of great tales as in the revivals especially in Wales UK. where people would be convicted of sin as they walked in the streets. Sadly we see the worldwide decline since this teaching 'went out of fashion' in the church.

Agreed !
Our faith has been washed down.
This makes for more sin than would otherwise ocurr.

There have been two teachings widely accepted on Romans 7 in modern times, but there are great difficulties with pesky verses that contradict these interpretations.

“The commentator Adam Clarke objected that the opinion that Paul was speaking of a regenerate person ‘has most pitifully and most shamefully lowered the Standard of Christianity, and even destroyed its influence and disgraced its character.’ A.H. Francke and J. Bengel (and, a little later, John Wesley, and, later still Moses Stuart) were among those who thought that Paul was describing a man who was under conviction of sin, but not yet regenerate. “ Rom 7:24 – Who is the ‘wretched man’? – Walking With Giants

Don't agree with either...
Adam Clarke is right IF we pay attention only to Romans 7, but Paul wrote many other paragraphs.
Also don't agree with Wesley and company because IF they were right....no Christian would be sinning.

This was a problem in the early church, BTW.
The early Christians believed that sinning would stop after baptism...but it did not.
Many put off baptism till they were close to death so they could have all their sins forgiven.
The church found a solution in confession.
(which was different than how the CC practices it today).

In his celebrated book Holiness, Ryle writes: ‘I am quite satisfied that it does not describe the experience of an unconverted man, or of a young and unestablished Christian; but of an old experienced saint in close communion with God. None but such a man could say, “I delight in the law of God after the inward man” (Rom. 7:22).’

Agreed.

So here we have them - unsaved or normal saved man. However, if you believe one of these you will be highly unlikely to accept the doctrine this is about. I will go into the objections in my next post.

A normal saved man would be my reply.
And what is the doctrine that this is about?

 

[marks]

As to Romans 7...Isn't it speaking of a saved man that USED to be unsaved?
This is my understanding.
Paul is struggling with sin and trying to understand why he is still sinning.
But he is saved.

For me this is confirmed in Paul's words, "therefore it is no more I, but sin that lives in me." The "no more I" indicates regeneration to me.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

Sister, I am not suffering from aging - that problem I have found, is mainly due to the unhealthy western diet and the pills taken to alleviate the symptoms, as I have eaten an organic whole food diet for 42 years. No, my illness is due to childhood trauma, mercury poisoning and Lyme Disease otherwise I would have been as fit as a fiddle which I found amongst the elderly in the health food shops I used to inhabit until they were overcome by hypermarkets. But thank you anyway for the empathy.

Yes, it kind of all catches up with us a we age, at least that is what I seem to be finding.

As far as food goes, that would be going off topic here, but I just want to say that Jesus said to take no thought about it...etc. We can even drink poison (inadvertently) and not be harmed. In other words our health is in His hands. Not many people in this world can afford to be choosy about what they eat, they give thanks for anything God provides as believers. But I agree that our food supply in North America has been and is being tampered with in the name of $$$. The Europeans have reportedly been doing a much better job of regulating that. Jesus was so right that the love of money is the root of ALL evil in this world and that is just one more example. It would be good if Trump and Kennedy Jr. can manage to walk some of that back, but it won't be an easy thing to attempt....there are people who will kill to keep their $$$ coming in.

Thanks again for the encouragement. I had already reached that place of union with Christ, fully purged, and walking in the Spirit while not slipping into the flesh. However the Lord deemed it suitable for me to not be in that state whilst I am healing fully.

I take that Psalm as referring to the iniquity (corruption) that is in the flesh, not in our inner man.....think our flesh is going to suffer the effects of iniquity/corruption and die eventually no matter how purged we are, subject to the will and wisdom of the Lord. I feel as though I'm carrying the burden of a lifetime spent in this body now as I age. Yet the scripture says they that wait on the Lord will renew their strength and renew their youth as the eagle, so I'm not ruling out the hope of a second wind just yet. (Pun intended? Maybe, ha.) Not that I want to hang around here any longer than necessary to fulfill God's will.

Yes I will give some of those further things some more thought as well. Bless you.

 

[Hepzibah]

Yes, it kind of all catches up with us a we age, at least that is what I seem to be finding.

Sorry I did not put that correctly. I am 74.

As far as food goes, that would be going off topic here, but I just want to say that Jesus said to take no thought about it...etc. We can even drink poison (inadvertently) and not be harmed. In other words our health is in His hands.

Not many people in this world can afford to be choosy about what they eat, they give thanks for anything God provides as believers. But I agree that our food supply in North America has been and is being tampered with in the name of $$$. The Europeans have reportedly been doing a much better job of regulating that. Jesus was so right that the love of money is the root of ALL evil in this world and that is just one more example. It would be good if Trump and Kennedy Jr. can manage to walk some of that back, but it won't be an easy thing to attempt....there are people who will kill to keep their $$$ coming in.

Yes agreed many have no choice but when we have and do not take advantage of it for our health, that is sinful behaviour in my mind.

I take that Psalm as referring to the iniquity (corruption) that is in the flesh, not in our inner man.....think our flesh is going to suffer the effects of iniquity/corruption and die eventually no matter how purged we are, subject to the will and wisdom of the Lord. I feel as though I'm carrying the burden of a lifetime spent in this body now as I age.

The flesh is also the natural for example our God given instincts. But of course we die when we die, but if we care for our bodies as we are taught, we take away Satan's efforts to kill us off early.

Yet the scripture says they that wait on the Lord will renew their strength and renew their youth as the eagle, so I'm not ruling out the hope of a second wind just yet. (Pun intended? Maybe, ha.) Not that I want to hang around here any longer than necessary to fulfill God's will.

We certainly renew our strength if we eat properly. And that comes part in parcel with Theosis.

Yes I will give some of those further things some more thought as well. Bless you.

Bless you too sister. I enjoy talking to you.

 

[Lizbeth]

For me this is confirmed in Paul's words, "therefore it is no more I, but sin that lives in me." The "no more I" indicates regeneration to me.

Much love!

I agree, but I gather that Hepzibah's definition of saved is that we are not saved when we first come to faith, but only with "theosis" and a certain baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

For me this is confirmed in Paul's words, "therefore it is no more I, but sin that lives in me." The "no more I" indicates regeneration to me.

Much love!

Agreed.
I Don't know how it could be understood otherwise.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree, but I gather that Hepzibah's definition of saved is that we are not saved when we first come to faith, but only with "theosis" and a certain baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I hope this is not what she believes.
I haven't been following this thread after my initial postings.
This is a habit of mine - not because I don't find this interesting.
IF we have to reach theosis, sinless perfection, call it what you will, in order to be saved....
I fear the narrow road will be MUCH MORE narrow than even Jesus stated.
I know monks that know they sin....and they live a cloistered life away from living with others on a daily basis.

 

[Hepzibah]

@GodsGrace

Thank you for that very thoughtful and thorough reply which I will get onto in the morning.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Thank you for that very thoughtful and thorough reply which I will get onto in the morning.

My day is over too.
I see we live in the same time zone.
I'd be posting now but going to go pick up my brother and wife
at the Florence airport! They live on the other side of the pond.
'night

 

[Lizbeth]

Sorry I did not put that correctly. I am 74.





Yes agreed many have no choice but when we have and do not take advantage of it for our health, that is sinful behaviour in my mind.

The flesh is also the natural for example our God given instincts. But of course we die when we die, but if we care for our bodies as we are taught, we take away Satan's efforts to kill us off early.



We certainly renew our strength if we eat properly. And that comes part in parcel with Theosis.

Bless you too sister. I enjoy talking to you.

Same here, and I appreciate your time on this.

On the topic of health and food, the other side of the coin is that I seem to see a society that is too pre-occupied with "health" these days honestly, a luxury that only a rich and prosperous society can afford, probably unprecedented in history before that I know of. It's hard to cook for a group these days...everybody has their own individual requirements and things they will not eat....it can make things very difficult for whoever is cooking and planning....gawwllleee! (Not aiming this at those with legitimate medical needs.) But I agree certainly we must not be irresponsible or gluttonous, or put God to the test.

 

[marks]

I agree, but I gather that Hepzibah's definition of saved is that we are not saved when we first come to faith, but only with "theosis" and a certain baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I understand.

However, if not regeneration, what would account for "no more I"? Something fundamentally changed. And of course he taught about that change specifically in the preceding chapter.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

Same here, and I appreciate your time on this.

Thanks same back.

On the topic of health and food, the other side of the coin is that I seem to see a society that is too pre-occupied with "health" these days honestly, a luxury that only a rich and prosperous society can afford,

I don't see it this way. If you cook from scratch, there are plenty of cheap ingredients like lentils and farmers markets where you can get cheap fresh produce. Many say they cannot afford to eat quality foods yet spend plenty on other things as they have their priorities upside down. A quality basic diet does not cost as much as is generally thought.

People are preoccupied with health I think because there are so many sick people today with the toxic soup we live in. Autoimmune conditions of which I have four are endemic. When you are this sick with environmental illnesses you find yourself intolerant to many food groups. I cannot eat grains or dairy.

probably unprecedented in history before that I know of. It's hard to cook for a group these days...everybody has their own individual requirements and things they will not eat....it can make things very difficult for whoever is cooking and planning....gawwllleee! (Not aiming this at those with legitimate medical needs.) But I agree certainly we must not be irresponsible or gluttonous, or put God to the test.

Again do not see it this way. There are plenty of meals you can make for those with multiple allergies even bread without grains. It just takes dedication to find them.

People are much more educated these days and know which foods are pretty bad for us and refuse to eat them, apart from the medical side. I think that is a good thing as we have put up with junk for too long.

 

[Hepzibah]

After all these posts, I'd say it would be a good idea to define THEOSIS.
I say this because I'm no longer certain of what it means for US.

This is from an Orthodox (meaning denomination) site:

Theosis​

The fundamental vocation and goal of each and every person is to share in the life of God. We have been created by God to live in fellowship with Him. The descent of God in the Person of Jesus Christ has made possible the human ascent to the Father through the work of the Holy Spirit. Orthodoxy believes that each Christian is involved in a movement toward God which is known as theosis or deification.

Theosis describes the spiritual pilgrimage in which each person becomes ever more perfect, ever more holy, ever more united with God. It is not a static relationship, nor does it take place only after death. On the contrary, theosis is a movement of love toward God which begins for each Christian with the rites of Baptism and which continues throughout this life, as well as the life which is to come. Salvation means liberation from sin, death, and evil. Redemption means our repossession by God. In Orthodoxy, both salvation and redemption are within the context of theosis. This rich vision of Christian life was expressed well by Saint Peter when he wrote in the early pages of his second Epistle that we are called "to become partakers of the Divine nature." It was also affirmed by Saint Basil the Great when he described man as the creature who has received the order to become a god.

These are certainly bold affirmations which must be properly understood. The Orthodox Church understands theosis as a union with the energies of God and not with the essence of God which always remains hidden and unknown. However, the experience of the Church testifies that this is a true union with God. It is also one which is not pantheistic, because in this union the divine and the human retain their unique characteristics. In this sense, Orthodoxy believes that human life reaches its fulfillment only when it becomes divine.

source: Spirituality | Transfiguration Greek Orthodox Church

I'd appreciate a little help from you:
What does that last line mean?
Before that it seems that we cannot be divine (deification).
The last line seems to say that this is our goal.

In this sense, Orthodoxy believes that human life reaches its fulfillment only when it becomes divine.

This is the goal of man, to be united with God and the man is not as he was meant to be without it. Divine is not having God's attributes, but being deified or holy as He is holy as we are instructed to be. To be without sin, in thought word or deed in this life as well as the next..

I've read some of the ECFs and I don't see deification in their writings....if this is indeed what we're discussing.

In the early years, the reason for most of the writing was for apologetic reasons, to defend the church against the many heresies that had come in. Before the NT was assembled, the ones who were the teachers were expected to be in Theosis so it would be teaching by word of mouth to interpret the OT, the gospels and Paul's letters when they become available. The writings of that period take for granted the audience would know what was meant by it.

It was in the 5th C that Theosis became laid out.

In my previous posts I was responding to sanctification and the possibility of complete sanctification...
I THINK that what I posted just above is saying something different - thus, I'm not sure what is being discussed anymore.

Theosis doctrine came over tot he west as entire sanctification which is more scriptural.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess 5:23

What the ECFs that I've read DID say is that work is necessary and that our good deeds are necessary.
(pre-nicene fathers).
No talk of complete sanctification and certainly not deification.
So, I would agree with JD Galloway.

Complete sanctification goes beyond my understanding of what God desires from us.



Ordo salutis smacks of calvinism to me. Which certainly was not a part of the early church.
And as to what you state regarding the early church, (the 3 stages) I don't know what they are and I also don't believe the ECFs ever spoke about a "position" in God, but the actual reality.

Yes they spoke of the reality of the three stages and that man can be sinless, thojhgh that does not mean he cannot sin again.

Saints in the CC have written about this illumination that is spoken of above.
Monks study these writers and I've read a couple of books...they don't come to mind right now but I could look for them.
They discuss HOW we can become better Christians and achieve high levels of closeness with or to God.
I doubt many persons can reach these levels. One saint would pray and go into trances - I doubt we'd find much of this these days.

We do not find much these days but if we had lived in the 18th C we would have seen it talked about everywhere, when Wesley was around. He taught two stages though.

This is true.
We can become MUCH MORE THAN WE ARE.
That's not saying much in view of the fact that we start from the bottom.
But, yes, we certainly are called to become better and more...

Christianity not only teaches that we are to eliminate the bad...
but that we are to cultivate the good.

No problem here. I'm sure we all agree.

1 of 2

 

[Hepzibah]

@Hepzibah

2 of 2

They turned the world upside down because they saw a dead man come back to life.
They were transformed because they finally understood who Jesus was.
As to Romans 7...Isn't it speaking of a saved man that USED to be unsaved?
This is my understanding.
Paul is struggling with sin and trying to understand why he is still sinning.
But he is saved.
(because will we ever be fully freed from sinning? No, I don't believe so and this is confirmed by John).

I say he was a man who was a follower of Christ but had not yet come to the point whereby he could be free from flesh and walk in the Spirit. If you are talking about 1John, I can go over that with you. But yes, she is saying sinless!
Agreed !

Our faith has been washed down.
This makes for more sin than would otherwise ocurr.

Don't agree with either...
Adam Clarke is right IF we pay attention only to Romans 7, but Paul wrote many other paragraphs.
Also don't agree with Wesley and company because IF they were right....no Christian would be sinning.

Wesley said that it is possible to be entirely sanctified but it includes our co-operation.

This was a problem in the early church, BTW.
The early Christians believed that sinning would stop after baptism...but it did not.
Many put off baptism till they were close to death so they could have all their sins forgiven.
The church found a solution in confession.
(which was different than how the CC practices it today).

They meant Spirit baptism saves us not water, though after the adult was baptized the priest would lay hands on him and pray for the Holy Spirit to come down. Later EO became infiltrated and wandered from the truth and especially by the time of Augustine and even Constantine.

Agreed.


A normal saved man would be my reply.
And what is the doctrine that this is about?

??

 

[Lizbeth]

Thanks same back.


I don't see it this way. If you cook from scratch, there are plenty of cheap ingredients like lentils and farmers markets where you can get cheap fresh produce. Many say they cannot afford to eat quality foods yet spend plenty on other things as they have their priorities upside down. A quality basic diet does not cost as much as is generally thought.

People are preoccupied with health I think because there are so many sick people today with the toxic soup we live in. Autoimmune conditions of which I have four are endemic. When you are this sick with environmental illnesses you find yourself intolerant to many food groups. I cannot eat grains or dairy.


Again do not see it this way. There are plenty of meals you can make for those with multiple allergies even bread without grains. It just takes dedication to find them.

People are much more educated these days and know which foods are pretty bad for us and refuse to eat them, apart from the medical side. I think that is a good thing as we have put up with junk for too long.

A lot of the allergies and intolerances we are seeing might be due to emotional/spiritual causes as well. Sign of the times, our post-Christian society is sick in general and it manifests in the physical realm as well.

I made grain free "bread" recently, twice, but nobody cared for it. My husband decided to go "carnivore" for the most part several months ago so we are both eating far too much red meat these days. My body just doesn't want it that often. Our long time habits have been pretty good, and basic, I've always been mindful of common sense nutrition. But things have gotten more complicated than that for a lot of people now.

 

[Hepzibah]

A lot of the allergies and intolerances we are seeing might be due to emotional/spiritual causes as well. Sign of the times, our post-Christian society is sick in general and it manifests in the physical realm as well.

Agreed.

I made grain free "bread" recently, twice, but nobody cared for it.

Ha! It's hard to find one but I did. It is okay.

My husband decided to go "carnivore" for the most part several months ago so we are both eating far too much red meat these days. My body just doesn't want it that often. Our long time habits have been pretty good, and basic, I've always been mindful of common sense nutrition. But things have gotten more complicated than that for a lot of people now.

I have done every diet there is. The macrobiotic helped the most but brown rice has arsenic in it now. I eat red meat but about twice a week and have done the carnivore but my thyroid was not happy. I have read up on vitamin a toxicity so watching that too. And oxalates. There is always something!