The point is that what was conceived in her.......was Holy. And the same Christ is both the Beginning and the End. The Author as well as Finisher of our faith. The same Christ Jesus being both the Cornerstone of the foundation as well as the Capstone. The beginning and the end are all of one.
The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.
- Thread starter Hepzibah
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Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sounds like we do something. Taking away from scripture is just as bad.
You are the last person who can accuse me of adding to or subtracting from what is written. I'm very familiar with Romans in the Koine Greek, @Hepzibah.
I do know what it's like to be under attack and accused for trying to encourage some folks to come up a little higher and start to see things through spiritual eyes and ears. It's hard to get some people to understand that leaven doesn't always mean bread.
I'm sure the person you are talking about doesn't have a monopoly on being irritated and accusatory.
Please carefully analyze the imperatives found in Romans, covering more than just one verse. I believe this doesn't relate to what I posted to @marks, so there's no need to worry about losing a "disciple."
My my-some folk are so spiritual they are no earthly good, sitting high on a mountain smoking a peace pipe and relish the goose pimples.
Romans 8:5-9 KJV
5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
We live with our carnal minds being so used to that, but I see the spiritual mind, the mind of Christ, to be of a completely different sort, such that the carnal mind has no longer any place. The Christ mind is able to do all that the carnal mind could do, and much more, and more so, in the right ways.
Much love!
If by "something we do" you include the recognition of facts.
God made us dead in Christ, and we are to recognize this as a real thing. That's what we do, we believe that what He tells us is true.
Much love!
Me? Is that what you think I'm about? My posts speak for themselves and I didn't think you had a problem with them generally.
My apologies-I don't have a good day but I am getting tired of Pentecostal/Word of Faith/Charismatics and their terminologies.
"Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin" This is a PRESENT MIDDLE (deponent) IMPERATIVE. This is an ongoing, habitual command for believers. Christians' knowledge of Christ's work on their behalf is crucial for daily life. The term "consider" (cf. Rom. 4:4,9), was an accounting term that meant "carefully add it up" - as you said-recognition of facts-and then act on that knowledge. Verses 1-11 acknowledged one's position in Christ (positional sanctification), while 12-13 emphasized walking in Him (progressive sanctification).
Some want to discuss...
some want to argue and always be right.
As to facebook....I don't care for it.
Not the right place to discuss God.
My daughter showed me an argument that two mutual friends of ours were having on facebook.
(not about God).
What they were saying to each other on open posts was unbelievable to me.
This is satan at work in the world.
It's evil.
Happily, my daughter doesn't contribute much but the youth of today are obsessed with this platform, and instagram and worst of all Tik Toc.
Absolutely correct, and just to clarify, I don't post on Facebook. This was a friend's request on WhatsApp, and the last three days have been like hell on earth. I had no idea he was Pentecostal, with prophetic utterances, tithing, healing, signs, and miracles. He really tried to convince me that I’m off the beaten path and need to tithe and be in a church building. I can promise you this: if he had been at my house, he would have gotten the beating of his life. I'm not so spiritual that I'm of no earthly good, and I admit that I sometimes miss the mark and give in to the flesh—if only momentarily.
Satan's world with lots of deceivers, wolves in sheep' clothing.
Maybe I should join the Catholic Church.
J.
6:11 "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin" This is a PRESENT MIDDLE (deponent) IMPERATIVE. This is an ongoing, habitual command for believers. Christians' knowledge of Christ's work on their behalf is crucial for daily life. The term "consider" (cf. Rom. 4:4,9), was an accounting term that meant "carefully add it up" and then act on that knowledge. Verses 1-11 acknowledged one's position in Christ (positional sanctification), while 12-13 emphasized walking in Him (progressive sanctification).
SPECIAL TOPIC: SANCTIFICATION
NASB, NRSV, TEV, NJB "Christ Jesus"
NKJV "Christ Jesus our Lord"
The shorter reading occurs in MSS P46, A, B, D, F, G. The UBS4 gives it an "A" rating (certain). The expanded phrase is early (MSS P94, א, C), but was probably added by a scribe from Rom. 6:23. Like the vast majority of textual variants, it makes little difference to the meaning of the text.
SPECIAL TOPIC: CHRIST JESUS AS LORD
÷ROMANS 6:12-14
NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ROMANS 6:12-14
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
6:12 "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body" This is a PRESENT ACTIVE IMPERATIVE with the NEGATIVE PARTICLE, which usually meant to stop an act already in process. The term "reign" relates to 5:17-21 and 6:23. Paul personifies several theological concepts.
death reigned as king (cf. Rom. 5:14,17; 6:23)
grace reigned as king (cf. Rom. 5:21)
sin reigned as king (cf. Rom. 6:12,14)
The real question is who is reigning in your life? The believer has the power in Christ to choose! The tragedy for the individual, the local church, and the Kingdom of God is when believers choose self and sin, even while claiming grace!
SPECIAL TOPIC: REIGNING IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD
6:13 "do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin" This is a PRESENT ACTIVE IMPERATIVE with the NEGATIVE PARTICLE which usually meant to stop an act already in process. This shows the potential for continuing sin in the lives of believers (cf. Rom. 7:1ff; 1 John 1:8-2:1). But the necessity of sin has been eliminated in the believer's new relationship with Christ, Rom. 6:1-11.
"as instruments" This term (hoplon) referred to "a soldier's weapons" (cf. Rom. 13:12; John 18:3; 2 Cor. 6:7; 10:4). Our physical body is the battleground for temptation (cf. Rom. 6:12-13; 12:1-2; 1 Cor. 6:20; Phil. 1:20). Our lives publicly display the gospel.
"but present yourselves to God" This is an AORIST ACTIVE IMPERATIVE which was a call for a decisive act (cf. Rom. 12:1). Believers do this at salvation by faith, but they must continue to do this throughout their lives.
Notice the parallelism of this verse.
same VERB and both IMPERATIVES
battle imagery
weapons of unrighteousness
weapons of righteousness
believers can present their bodies to sin or themselves to God
Remember, this verse is referring to believers—the choice continues; the battle continues (cf. Rom. 6:12,19; 1 Cor. 6:18-19; Eph. 6:10-18)!
6:14 "For sin shall not be master over you" This is a FUTURE ACTIVE INDICATIVE (cf. Ps. 19:13) functioning as an IMPERATIVE, "sin must not be master over you!" Sin is not master over believers because it is not master over Christ, (cf. Rom. 6:9; John 16:33).
÷ROMANS 6:15-19
NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ROMANS 6:15-19
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
6:15 This second supposed question (diatribe) is similar to Rom. 6:1. Both answer different questions about the Christian's relation to sin. Verse 1 deals with grace not being used as a license to sin, while Rom. 6:15 deals with the Christian's need to fight, or resist, individual acts of sin. Also, at the same time the believer must serve God now with the same enthusiasm with which he previously served sin (cf. Rom. 6:14).
NASB, NKJV, TEV, Peshitta "Shall we sin"
NRSV "Should we sin"
NJB "that we are free to sin"
REB "Are we to sin"
The Williams and Phillips translations both translate this AORIST ACTIVE SUBMUNCTIVE as a PRESENT ACTIVE SUBJUNCTIVE similar to
Rom. 6:1. This is not the proper focus. Notice the alternate translations
KJV, ASV, NIV ‒ "shall we sin?"
The Centenary Translation ‒ "Shall we commit an act of sin?"
RSV ‒ "are we to sin?"
This question is emphatic in Greek and expected a "yes" answer. This was Paul's diatribe method of communicating truth. This verse expresses false theology! Paul answered this by his characteristic "May it never be." Paul's gospel of the radical free grace of God was misunderstood and abused by many false teachers.
6:16 The question expects a "yes" response. Humans serve something or someone. Who reigns in your life, sin or God? Who humans obey shows who they serve (cf. Gal. 6:7-8).
6:17 "But thanks be to God" Paul often breaks out into praise to God. His writings flow from his prayers and his prayers from his knowledge of the gospel.
SPECIAL TOPIC: PAUL'S PRAYER, PRAISE, AND THANKSGIVING TO GOD
"you were. . .you became" This is the IMPERFECT TENSE of the VERB, "to be," which described their state of being in the past (slaves of sin) followed by an AORIST TENSE which asserts that their state of rebellion has ceased.
"You became obedient from your heart to that form of teaching" In context, this refers to their justification by grace through faith, which must lead to daily Christlikeness.
The term "teaching" referred to Apostolic teaching or the gospel.
"heart" See SPECIAL TOPIC: HEART
NASB "that form of teaching to which you were committed"
NKJV "that form of doctrine to which you were delivered"
NRSV, NIV "to the form of teaching to which you were entrusted"
TEV "the truth found in the teaching you received"
NJB "to the pattern of teaching to which you were introduced"
REB "to that pattern of teaching to which you were made subject"
Peshitta "that form of doctrine which has been delivered to you"
This thought is parallel to 1 Cor. 15:1 and refers to the gospel truths that these believers heard and received. The gospel is
a person to welcome
truths about that person to believe
a life like that person's to live!
"form" See SPECIAL TOPIC: FORM (TUPOS)
6:18 "having been freed from sin" This is an AORIST PASSIVE PARTICIPLE. The gospel has freed believers by the agency of the Spirit through the work of Christ. Believers have been freed both from the penalty of sin (justification) and the tyranny of sin (sanctification, cf. Rom. 6:7 and 22). One day they will be free from the presence of sin (glorification, cf. Rom. 8:29-30).
"you became the slaves of righteousness" This is an AORIST PASSIVE INDICATIVE, "you became enslaved to righteousness." Believers are freed from sin to serve God (cf. Rom. 6:14,19,22; 7:4; 8:2)! The goal of free grace is a godly life. Justification is both a legal pronouncement and an impetus for personal righteousness. God wants to save us and change us so as to reach others! Grace does not stop with individual believer's salvation (cf. Matt. 28:18-20; Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8).
SPECIAL TOPIC: RIGHTEOUSNESS
6:19 "I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh" Paul is addressing the believers at Rome. Is he addressing a local problem he had heard about (jealousy among Jewish believers and Gentile believers) or is he asserting a truth about all believers? Paul used this phrase earlier in Rom. 3:5, as he does in Gal. 3:15.
Verse 19 is parallel to Rom. 6:16. Paul repeats his theological points for emphasis.
Some would say this phrase means that Paul was apologizing for using slave imagery. However, "because of the weakness of your flesh" does not fit this interpretation. Slavery was not viewed as an evil by first century society, especially in Rome. It was simply the culture of its day. Two thirds of the Roman world were slaves.
"flesh" See SPECIAL TOPIC: FLESH (SARX)
"resulting in sanctification" This is the goal of justification (cf. Rom. 6:22). The NT used this term in two theological senses related to salvation.
SPECIAL TOPIC: SANCTIFICATION
SPECIAL TOPIC: SANCTIFICATION
NASB, NRSV, TEV, NJB "Christ Jesus"
NKJV "Christ Jesus our Lord"
The shorter reading occurs in MSS P46, A, B, D, F, G. The UBS4 gives it an "A" rating (certain). The expanded phrase is early (MSS P94, א, C), but was probably added by a scribe from Rom. 6:23. Like the vast majority of textual variants, it makes little difference to the meaning of the text.
SPECIAL TOPIC: CHRIST JESUS AS LORD
÷ROMANS 6:12-14
NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ROMANS 6:12-14
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
6:12 "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body" This is a PRESENT ACTIVE IMPERATIVE with the NEGATIVE PARTICLE, which usually meant to stop an act already in process. The term "reign" relates to 5:17-21 and 6:23. Paul personifies several theological concepts.
death reigned as king (cf. Rom. 5:14,17; 6:23)
grace reigned as king (cf. Rom. 5:21)
sin reigned as king (cf. Rom. 6:12,14)
The real question is who is reigning in your life? The believer has the power in Christ to choose! The tragedy for the individual, the local church, and the Kingdom of God is when believers choose self and sin, even while claiming grace!
SPECIAL TOPIC: REIGNING IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD
6:13 "do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin" This is a PRESENT ACTIVE IMPERATIVE with the NEGATIVE PARTICLE which usually meant to stop an act already in process. This shows the potential for continuing sin in the lives of believers (cf. Rom. 7:1ff; 1 John 1:8-2:1). But the necessity of sin has been eliminated in the believer's new relationship with Christ, Rom. 6:1-11.
"as instruments" This term (hoplon) referred to "a soldier's weapons" (cf. Rom. 13:12; John 18:3; 2 Cor. 6:7; 10:4). Our physical body is the battleground for temptation (cf. Rom. 6:12-13; 12:1-2; 1 Cor. 6:20; Phil. 1:20). Our lives publicly display the gospel.
"but present yourselves to God" This is an AORIST ACTIVE IMPERATIVE which was a call for a decisive act (cf. Rom. 12:1). Believers do this at salvation by faith, but they must continue to do this throughout their lives.
Notice the parallelism of this verse.
same VERB and both IMPERATIVES
battle imagery
weapons of unrighteousness
weapons of righteousness
believers can present their bodies to sin or themselves to God
Remember, this verse is referring to believers—the choice continues; the battle continues (cf. Rom. 6:12,19; 1 Cor. 6:18-19; Eph. 6:10-18)!
6:14 "For sin shall not be master over you" This is a FUTURE ACTIVE INDICATIVE (cf. Ps. 19:13) functioning as an IMPERATIVE, "sin must not be master over you!" Sin is not master over believers because it is not master over Christ, (cf. Rom. 6:9; John 16:33).
÷ROMANS 6:15-19
NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ROMANS 6:15-19
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
6:15 This second supposed question (diatribe) is similar to Rom. 6:1. Both answer different questions about the Christian's relation to sin. Verse 1 deals with grace not being used as a license to sin, while Rom. 6:15 deals with the Christian's need to fight, or resist, individual acts of sin. Also, at the same time the believer must serve God now with the same enthusiasm with which he previously served sin (cf. Rom. 6:14).
NASB, NKJV, TEV, Peshitta "Shall we sin"
NRSV "Should we sin"
NJB "that we are free to sin"
REB "Are we to sin"
The Williams and Phillips translations both translate this AORIST ACTIVE SUBMUNCTIVE as a PRESENT ACTIVE SUBJUNCTIVE similar to
Rom. 6:1. This is not the proper focus. Notice the alternate translations
KJV, ASV, NIV ‒ "shall we sin?"
The Centenary Translation ‒ "Shall we commit an act of sin?"
RSV ‒ "are we to sin?"
This question is emphatic in Greek and expected a "yes" answer. This was Paul's diatribe method of communicating truth. This verse expresses false theology! Paul answered this by his characteristic "May it never be." Paul's gospel of the radical free grace of God was misunderstood and abused by many false teachers.
6:16 The question expects a "yes" response. Humans serve something or someone. Who reigns in your life, sin or God? Who humans obey shows who they serve (cf. Gal. 6:7-8).
6:17 "But thanks be to God" Paul often breaks out into praise to God. His writings flow from his prayers and his prayers from his knowledge of the gospel.
SPECIAL TOPIC: PAUL'S PRAYER, PRAISE, AND THANKSGIVING TO GOD
"you were. . .you became" This is the IMPERFECT TENSE of the VERB, "to be," which described their state of being in the past (slaves of sin) followed by an AORIST TENSE which asserts that their state of rebellion has ceased.
"You became obedient from your heart to that form of teaching" In context, this refers to their justification by grace through faith, which must lead to daily Christlikeness.
The term "teaching" referred to Apostolic teaching or the gospel.
"heart" See SPECIAL TOPIC: HEART
NASB "that form of teaching to which you were committed"
NKJV "that form of doctrine to which you were delivered"
NRSV, NIV "to the form of teaching to which you were entrusted"
TEV "the truth found in the teaching you received"
NJB "to the pattern of teaching to which you were introduced"
REB "to that pattern of teaching to which you were made subject"
Peshitta "that form of doctrine which has been delivered to you"
This thought is parallel to 1 Cor. 15:1 and refers to the gospel truths that these believers heard and received. The gospel is
a person to welcome
truths about that person to believe
a life like that person's to live!
"form" See SPECIAL TOPIC: FORM (TUPOS)
6:18 "having been freed from sin" This is an AORIST PASSIVE PARTICIPLE. The gospel has freed believers by the agency of the Spirit through the work of Christ. Believers have been freed both from the penalty of sin (justification) and the tyranny of sin (sanctification, cf. Rom. 6:7 and 22). One day they will be free from the presence of sin (glorification, cf. Rom. 8:29-30).
"you became the slaves of righteousness" This is an AORIST PASSIVE INDICATIVE, "you became enslaved to righteousness." Believers are freed from sin to serve God (cf. Rom. 6:14,19,22; 7:4; 8:2)! The goal of free grace is a godly life. Justification is both a legal pronouncement and an impetus for personal righteousness. God wants to save us and change us so as to reach others! Grace does not stop with individual believer's salvation (cf. Matt. 28:18-20; Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8).
SPECIAL TOPIC: RIGHTEOUSNESS
6:19 "I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh" Paul is addressing the believers at Rome. Is he addressing a local problem he had heard about (jealousy among Jewish believers and Gentile believers) or is he asserting a truth about all believers? Paul used this phrase earlier in Rom. 3:5, as he does in Gal. 3:15.
Verse 19 is parallel to Rom. 6:16. Paul repeats his theological points for emphasis.
Some would say this phrase means that Paul was apologizing for using slave imagery. However, "because of the weakness of your flesh" does not fit this interpretation. Slavery was not viewed as an evil by first century society, especially in Rome. It was simply the culture of its day. Two thirds of the Roman world were slaves.
"flesh" See SPECIAL TOPIC: FLESH (SARX)
"resulting in sanctification" This is the goal of justification (cf. Rom. 6:22). The NT used this term in two theological senses related to salvation.
SPECIAL TOPIC: SANCTIFICATION
I'm thinking of what Jesus said too about inviting those who were hitherto unbidden to the wedding....that the feast may be full. I suspect that mention about finding faith on the earth when He comes might need some revelation to understand what He had in mind. I don't have any confirmation of this but have been noticing that people in general do not have faith like they used to have.........instead there is just so much fear about everything and it is leading to such things as hypervigilance, micromanaging and helicopter parenting too. Might it be because God's presence is being taken away from the earth? (The restrainer being taken away...?) I think people in general do better in a better spiritual atmosphere even though they are not believers. It is harder even for believers to stay encouraged in such times as well. Thinking of where it says deep darkness covers the earth. And yet it's at such a time as that we are to arise and shine because His glory will shine upon us.
Agree with what you said about churches.
Blessings in Christ Jesus Lizbeth! And where do you suppose the prophets are in these times Lizbeth? I am asking for your opinion as I see your mind searches out things.
