The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Marvelloustime]

GET IN THE BIBLE
LET GOD BE TRUE but every man a liar . So many are not gonna make it as they heed these men who so easily have decieved them .

 

[Marvelloustime]

Many , and i do mean many , are very much alive to sin and DEAD to righteouness .
The dead are alive to sin and know not that they are dead while in sin .
To them their awakening has rather come to give excuse to sin rather than to free them from sin and HE who holds
that power .
Their cross has naught to do with the death of the old man who lived in sin ,
but rather a means to continue to live in sin .
Dead to righteouness and alive to sin
but that mindset is but death and leads only to the second death .
This is not looking good for much of christendom right now .
But let us not marvel , can not satan himself appear as an angel of light
and YET WE KNOW HE BE DARKNESS
so it is no great thing if the minsitirs of death can preach what they call life
and that the minstirs of satan can indeed preach another jesus , another gospel , another love .
WHICH will contain truths , but those truths will be twisted to imply a lie .

 

[Johann]

Please start your own thread if you wish to discuss OSAS. This thread is about sanctification.

‘Sanctification is the total eradication of the carnal nature, so that sinless perfection is attained in this life.’”

Do you believe the above statement to be true @Hepzibah?

 

[Hepzibah]

‘Sanctification is the total eradication of the carnal nature, so that sinless perfection is attained in this life.’”

Do you believe the above statement to be true @Hepzibah?

It depends on what you mean by sinless perfection.

 

[Episkopos]

‘Sanctification is the total eradication of the carnal nature, so that sinless perfection is attained in this life.’”

Not eradication but a full suspension of the carnal nature...making it powerless...suspension as in suspended on a cross. The old bibles translated "aphesis" as "remission" of sin. And remission means to have no more power...like a cancer that has gone into remission. But times change and so do the meanings of words. But regardless Christ does not change. Grace doesn't change. Sin doesn't change. And the penalty for sin doesn't change. What changes is we who are empowered to have the same victory over sin that Jesus had...by grace through faith.

In Him is no sin.

 

[Lizbeth]

Paul often used the term 'we' or 'let us' when he was obviously not including himself. In 2 Cor 5:11-20 It seems the word "we" sometimes refers just to the apostles (eg verse 12-13). Other times it refers to everyone (eg verse 21). However it is often ambiguous (eg verse 14, 20).

Yes I think it means knowing Christ fully, being fully possessed by the Spirit. He longs for this intimacy with a man who is fully submitted to Him so He can reveal Himself safely.

No-no mistranslation @Hepzibah and no more need for holiness revivals and I do notice in most of your interactions you hardly quote Scriptures-that's a red flag to me.
Adieu
No need to respond.


Context of Philippians 3:13-14
1. Background of the Letter to the Philippians:
Authorship and Purpose: The Apostle Paul wrote this letter while he was imprisoned, likely in Rome around 61-62 A.D. Despite his circumstances, the letter is often called the "Epistle of Joy" because of its repeated emphasis on rejoicing in the Lord.
Audience: The letter was addressed to the Christian community in Philippi, a Roman colony in Macedonia. This church was one of the first Christian communities established in Europe (Acts 16:12-40).

2. Immediate Context in Philippians 3:1-12:
Warning Against Legalism: In Philippians 3:1-6, Paul warns the believers against placing confidence in the flesh, referring to those who advocated for the necessity of circumcision and adherence to Jewish law for salvation. Paul lists his own credentials as a devout Jew but declares them worthless compared to knowing Christ.

Pursuing Christ: In verses 7-11, Paul emphasizes the surpassing value of knowing Christ and being found in Him. He expresses his desire to know Christ more deeply, to experience the power of His resurrection, and to participate in His sufferings, even if it means becoming like Him in His death, so that he might attain resurrection from the dead.

Paul’s Admission: In verse 12, Paul admits that he has not yet reached the fullness of this experience or perfection, but he continues to press on to take hold of that for which Christ took hold of him.

3. Meaning of Philippians 3:13-14:

Personal Reflection: Paul acknowledges that he has not yet "taken hold" of the ultimate goal, which is the complete and perfect knowledge of Christ and the fullness of his salvation. This humility reflects Paul’s ongoing pursuit of spiritual growth.

Forgetting the Past: Paul speaks of "forgetting what is behind," which can be understood as both his past accomplishments (which he now considers insignificant in comparison to knowing Christ) and his past failures or sins. This doesn’t mean he literally forgets, but rather that he doesn’t let the past hinder his present pursuit of Christ.

Straining Toward the Future: Paul uses the metaphor of a runner in a race, straining toward the finish line. This image conveys intense effort and focus on what lies ahead, symbolizing his pursuit of spiritual maturity and the ultimate reward of being united with Christ.

The Goal and the Prize: The "goal" Paul refers to is the end of the race of faith, and the "prize" is the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. This likely refers to the final salvation and eternal life with Christ that God promises to believers. Paul is not just focused on earthly achievements but on the heavenly reward that awaits him.

Application and Reflection:
Perseverance in Faith: Paul’s words encourage believers to continue pressing forward in their spiritual journey, not being held back by the past but focusing on the ultimate goal of knowing Christ fully.

Spiritual Growth: This passage reminds Christians that spiritual growth is a lifelong process. Perfection or complete maturity isn’t something we achieve instantly; it’s something we strive toward continually.

Heavenly Focus: Paul’s focus is on the "prize" of being called heavenward in Christ Jesus, reminding believers to keep their eyes on eternal, rather than temporal, goals.

Philippians 3:13-14 encapsulates Paul’s passionate pursuit of knowing Christ and attaining the fullness of salvation. It’s a call to believers to press on in their faith, focusing on the future promises of God rather than being hindered by the past. Paul’s example encourages a life of dedication, perseverance, and an unwavering focus on the ultimate goal of eternal life with Christ.

Greek Text (Textus Receptus):
Philippians 3:13-14
13 ἀδελφοί, ἐγὼ ἐμαυτὸν οὐ λογίζομαι κατειληφέναι· ἓν δέ· τὰ μὲν ὀπίσω ἐπιλανθανόμενος, τοῖς δὲ ἔμπροσθεν ἐπεκτεινόμενος,
14 κατὰ σκοπὸν διώκω εἰς τὸ βραβεῖον τῆς ἄνω κλήσεως τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ.

Verse 13:
ἀδελφοί (adelphoi) - "brothers" (vocative masculine plural of ἀδελφός)
Vocative case, used for direct address.
ἐγὼ (egō) - "I" (first person singular pronoun)
ἐμαυτὸν (emauton) - "myself" (accusative masculine singular reflexive pronoun)
οὐ (ou) - "not" (negation particle)
λογίζομαι (logizomai) - "I consider" (present middle/passive indicative, first person singular of λογίζομαι)
κατειληφέναι (kateilēphenai) - "to have taken hold of" (perfect active infinitive of καταλαμβάνω)

Rev., have attained, am made perfect. There is a change of tenses which may be intentional; the aorist attained pointing to the definite period of his conversion, the perfect, am made perfect, referring to his present state. Neither when I became Christ's did I attain, nor, up to this time, have I been perfected. With attained supply the prize from Php_3:14. Rev., am made perfect, is preferable, as preserving the passive form of the verb.

Or am already made perfect (ē ēdē teteleiōmai). Perfect passive indicative (state of completion) of teleioō, old verb from teleios and that from telos (end). Paul pointedly denies that he has reached a spiritual impasse of non- development. Certainly he knew nothing of so-called sudden absolute perfection by any single experience. Paul has made great progress in Christlikeness, but the goal is still before him, not behind him.

ἓν (hen) - "one thing" (neuter singular nominative pronoun)
δέ (de) - "but" (conjunction)
τὰ (ta) - "the things" (neuter plural accusative article)
μὲν (men) - "on the one hand" (conjunction, often paired with δέ, not translated separately)
ὀπίσω (opisō) - "behind" (adverb)
ἐπιλανθανόμενος (epilanthánomenos) - "forgetting" (present middle/passive participle, masculine nominative singular of ἐπιλανθάνομαι)
τοῖς (tois) - "the things" (neuter plural dative article)
δὲ (de) - "but" (conjunction)
ἔμπροσθεν (emprosthen) - "ahead" (adverb)
ἐπεκτεινόμενος (epekteinómenos) - "straining toward" (present middle/passive participle, masculine nominative singular of ἐπεκτείνομαι)

Johann and everyone, I'm just having trouble grappling with things right now and have gone into silent mode....don't feel like talking and don't know what to say anyhow. Feeling hormonal too and maybe my difficulty right now is just due to aging, ugh....some days are better or worse than others these days. I think I need to wait on the Lord for these things at the moment.

Right now it looks like some of these things can be taken either way and maybe both are true in some cases, but I just am not sure....my head is not too clear. The bible says we have the mind of Christ and that all things are possible with God, so I don't want to limit what is possible. At the same time I think there is the matter of growth involved and I am not sure it is like a hard and fast rule (letter of a Law) that everyone has to "attain" perfection in this life. Like Paul said, He who judges us is the Lord, the living Lord and righteous judge who alone knows all the "ins and outs" of every soul and their individual circumstances and battles in this life. I wonder if everyone is responsible to do their best with what they have been dealt with both in terms of measure of grace/faith as well as individual battle ground, and God will judge accordingly. Kind of a bell curve rather than the same goal line that everyone has to reach...? I think the bible indicates He doesn't judge the way man does, by outward measures...? Just some thoughts rolling around that I can't even really grasp to know whether any of it makes sense or not, lol. Think I'll just take a chair in the back of the room for now.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please start your own thread if you wish to discuss OSAS. This thread is about sanctification.

Let's try to get this thread back on track.

John Wesley believed that a person could be totally sanctified IN THIS LIFE.
Paul states that we are BEING SANCTIFIED.
Hebrews 10:14 (or whoever wrote this letter).
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

It also states throughout scripture that God wants our sanctification.
1 Thessalonians 4:3
3For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;

1 Corinthians 6:11
11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


It sounds to me that the writers of the NT expected us TO BE sanctified in our lifetime.

Could we have a definition of SANCTIFIED?

Thanks.

 

[Lizbeth]

Not eradication but a full suspension of the carnal nature...making it powerless...suspension as in suspended on a cross.

Ah...ok, that I agree with. Walking in the Spirit ABOVE our carnal nature. As some would say, walking separated from it. Dividing between soul and spirit.

 

[Johann]

It depends on what you mean by sinless perfection.

The statement that "sanctification is the total eradication of the carnal nature, so that sinless perfection is attained in this life" is a view associated with some strands of Christian theology, particularly within certain holiness movements. However, it is a contested view, and many theologians would argue that it is not fully supported by Scripture or the broader Christian tradition.

When addressing whether or not believers can achieve "sinless perfection" in this life, it's essential to clarify what is meant by the term.

1. Understanding "Sinless Perfection":
Absolute Sinless Perfection: This view suggests that a person can reach a state in this life where they are entirely free from sin, both in thought and action. This idea is generally considered incorrect by most mainstream Christian traditions, which argue that while sanctification involves growth in holiness, it does not result in absolute sinlessness in this life.

Relative Perfection: Some theologians speak of a type of "perfection" that is relative rather than absolute. This might mean living in consistent victory over known sin and being fully devoted to God, but it does not mean being entirely free from all sin.

2. Scriptural Considerations:
1 John 1:8-10: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." This passage suggests that believers continue to sin and need ongoing forgiveness.

Romans 7:14-25: Paul describes his ongoing struggle with sin, even as a believer. He speaks of a battle between his desire to do good and the sin that still dwells within him. This passage is often cited to argue against the idea of sinless perfection in this life.

Philippians 3:12-14: Paul acknowledges that he has not yet attained perfection but is pressing on toward it. This suggests that the Christian life involves continuous growth and striving for holiness, rather than achieving complete sinlessness in this life.

3. Theological Reflections:
Augustine and Original Sin: Augustine emphasized the pervasive nature of sin and the idea of "original sin," arguing that sin affects every aspect of human nature. For Augustine, while believers are sanctified and grow in holiness, they do not attain absolute sinlessness in this life.

Reformation Theology: Reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin also rejected the notion of sinless perfection. They emphasized that sanctification is a process that continues throughout the believer’s life, and that sin remains a reality, even for those who are genuinely regenerated and growing in grace.

John Wesley: Wesley's concept of "Christian perfection" or "entire sanctification" is often misunderstood. Wesley did not teach that believers could be free from all sin, but rather that they could be freed from willful sin and could live in perfect love. Even in Wesleyan theology, the idea of sinless perfection is not absolute, but relative and contingent on continued reliance on God's grace.

4. Practical Implications:
Growth in Holiness: The Christian life is marked by growth in holiness, where believers increasingly reflect Christ's character. However, this growth does not mean the complete eradication of the sinful nature but rather a progressive transformation.
Humility and Dependence on God: Recognizing that sin remains a reality even for believers fosters humility and a continued reliance on God's grace and the work of the Holy Spirit.

In response to the statement, it is important to clarify that while sanctification involves growth in holiness and increasing victory over sin, the idea of achieving sinless perfection in this life is not widely supported by Scripture or traditional Christian theology. Most Christian traditions emphasize that sanctification is a lifelong process of becoming more like Christ, but believers remain in need of God’s grace and forgiveness throughout their lives.

Would you agree with the above?

 

[Johann]

Not eradication but a full suspension of the carnal nature...making it powerless...suspension as in suspended on a cross. The old bibles translated "aphesis" as "remission" of sin. And remission means to have no more power...like a cancer that has gone into remission. But times change and so do the meanings of words. But regardless Christ does not change. Grace doesn't change. Sin doesn't change. And the penalty for sin doesn't change. What changes is we who are empowered to have the same victory over sin that Jesus had...by grace through faith.

In Him is no sin.

And yet we as believers do commit acts of misdeeds daily, in word, thought and deed--where does that come from and how to be remedied?

 

[Episkopos]

And yet we as believers do commit acts of misdeeds daily, in word, thought and deed--where does that come from and how to be remedied?

Enter into Christ to walk as He walked in His victory over sin...in His perfection. The alternative is to remain humble, fearing the Lord...and carrying your own burden (cross) of sinful flesh around in a meek surrender...not judging others or defending yourself.

Whether we are present or absent with the Lord we should do all to be at least acceptable to God...in honesty and transparency.

 

[Johann]

Johann and everyone, I'm just having trouble grappling with things right now and have gone into silent mode....don't feel like talking and don't know what to say anyhow. Feeling hormonal too and maybe my difficulty right now is just due to aging, ugh....some days are better or worse than others these days. I think I need to wait on the Lord for these things at the moment.

I am going through these seasons myself @Lizbeth and can empathize with you-stay strong in Christ Jesus.

Sit back and enjoy.
Johann.

 

[Lizbeth]

You are seeing through eyes of human reasoning otherwise known as the flesh, that will do anything to stay alive and not go to the cross, regarding when spiritual rebirth takes place. You are the same as the disciples before Pentecost, only knowing the law.

Paul warned of such as you who would lead many astray because of a show of knowledge, fleshy knowledge that is, not spiritual maturity. Most bible scholars are unsaved. May God have mercy.

Think that's a little harsh sister. Johann is cessationist, at least to some extent, so that has a bearing on things. But it doesnt' mean he is unsaved.

I have wondered if we follow the same pattern as the disciples, but our starting point is definitely higher than unbelieving Jews under the Law.....we like the disciples before Pentecost have been made clean through the word and have at least received the Holy Spirit in the way that the disciples did when Jesus breathed on them.

Agree that reliance on the carnal mind will lead astray or limit our understanding....we need to rely on the Lord, His Spirit and mind.

 

[Johann]

Enter into Christ to walk as He walked in His victory over sin...in His perfection. The alternative is to remain humble, fearing the Lord...and carrying your own burden (cross) of sinful flesh around in a meek surrender...not judging others or defending yourself.

Whether we are present or absent with the Lord we should do all to be at least acceptable to God...in honesty and transparency.

So you are saying eis Christ Jesus you are incapable of committing an act of sin? Correct?

 

[Lizbeth]

How long must it continue to be real?

I believe that some of us may walk in the Spirit for a mere 5 minutes before we fall back into distrust. For me it's a really clear experience. My brain is so bad off, I have two states, basically, either white-knuckling it keeping a grip on my thoughts and emotions to keep that freight train from running away (imperfectly, I might add), or to walk in the Spirit, and so transcend the flesh, the freight train has no power because I'm not there, I'm here in the Spirit (if I am, that is).

Much love!

Dont' give up seeking healing too brother! He is the Lord our Healer. One day when that cross has done it's job perhaps. I have something I've been praying for healing/deliverance from for years as well.

 

[GodsGrace]

The statement that "sanctification is the total eradication of the carnal nature, so that sinless perfection is attained in this life" is a view associated with some strands of Christian theology, particularly within certain holiness movements. However, it is a contested view, and many theologians would argue that it is not fully supported by Scripture or the broader Christian tradition.

When addressing whether or not believers can achieve "sinless perfection" in this life, it's essential to clarify what is meant by the term.

1. Understanding "Sinless Perfection":
Absolute Sinless Perfection: This view suggests that a person can reach a state in this life where they are entirely free from sin, both in thought and action. This idea is generally considered incorrect by most mainstream Christian traditions, which argue that while sanctification involves growth in holiness, it does not result in absolute sinlessness in this life.

Relative Perfection: Some theologians speak of a type of "perfection" that is relative rather than absolute. This might mean living in consistent victory over known sin and being fully devoted to God, but it does not mean being entirely free from all sin.

2. Scriptural Considerations:
1 John 1:8-10: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." This passage suggests that believers continue to sin and need ongoing forgiveness.

Romans 7:14-25: Paul describes his ongoing struggle with sin, even as a believer. He speaks of a battle between his desire to do good and the sin that still dwells within him. This passage is often cited to argue against the idea of sinless perfection in this life.

Philippians 3:12-14: Paul acknowledges that he has not yet attained perfection but is pressing on toward it. This suggests that the Christian life involves continuous growth and striving for holiness, rather than achieving complete sinlessness in this life.

3. Theological Reflections:
Augustine and Original Sin: Augustine emphasized the pervasive nature of sin and the idea of "original sin," arguing that sin affects every aspect of human nature. For Augustine, while believers are sanctified and grow in holiness, they do not attain absolute sinlessness in this life.

Reformation Theology: Reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin also rejected the notion of sinless perfection. They emphasized that sanctification is a process that continues throughout the believer’s life, and that sin remains a reality, even for those who are genuinely regenerated and growing in grace.

John Wesley: Wesley's concept of "Christian perfection" or "entire sanctification" is often misunderstood. Wesley did not teach that believers could be free from all sin, but rather that they could be freed from willful sin and could live in perfect love. Even in Wesleyan theology, the idea of sinless perfection is not absolute, but relative and contingent on continued reliance on God's grace.

4. Practical Implications:
Growth in Holiness: The Christian life is marked by growth in holiness, where believers increasingly reflect Christ's character. However, this growth does not mean the complete eradication of the sinful nature but rather a progressive transformation.
Humility and Dependence on God: Recognizing that sin remains a reality even for believers fosters humility and a continued reliance on God's grace and the work of the Holy Spirit.

In response to the statement, it is important to clarify that while sanctification involves growth in holiness and increasing victory over sin, the idea of achieving sinless perfection in this life is not widely supported by Scripture or traditional Christian theology. Most Christian traditions emphasize that sanctification is a lifelong process of becoming more like Christ, but believers remain in need of God’s grace and forgiveness throughout their lives.

Would you agree with the above?

Did you happen to see my post 467?

Just some statements:
My pastor at a Nazarene church taught that just committing a sin would cause one to forfeit their salvation.
This sounded very wrong to me and I was a new Christian.

Now, many years later, I know that even monks, that live with very little contact with people, sin and go to confession.

So, what is the truth?

As usual I read up on what the early church believed.

Seems the early church experienced a problem.....
It was believed that once baptized, persons would no longer sin.
Instead they did.

But John provided for this, didn't he?
Yes, he did.

So, the answer, IMO, is a bit complicated.

I guess in the end I believe that we strive for perfection...
but I don't think we could really expect it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not eradication but a full suspension of the carnal nature...making it powerless...suspension as in suspended on a cross. The old bibles translated "aphesis" as "remission" of sin. And remission means to have no more power...like a cancer that has gone into remission. But times change and so do the meanings of words. But regardless Christ does not change. Grace doesn't change. Sin doesn't change. And the penalty for sin doesn't change. What changes is we who are empowered to have the same victory over sin that Jesus had...by grace through faith.

In Him is no sin.

What's the difference between SUSPENSION and ERADICATION?
I mean, practically.....

To suspend means to stop something from being in force.....like to suspend a law.

To eradicate means to remove completely, to destroy......

In both cases the object/law in question is no more.

 

[Hepzibah]

Think that's a little harsh sister. Johann is cessationist, at least to some extent, so that has a bearing on things. But it doesnt' mean he is unsaved.

I have wondered if we follow the same pattern as the disciples, but our starting point is definitely higher than unbelieving Jews under the Law.....we like the disciples before Pentecost have been made clean through the word and have at least received the Holy Spirit in the way that the disciples did when Jesus breathed on them.

Agree that reliance on the carnal mind will lead astray or limit our understanding....we need to rely on the Lord, His Spirit and mind.

I am a cessationist too sister. I did not mean that he was unsaved, just pointing out that many Bible scholars are unsaved. Knowing the Bible back to front is not evidence of being led by the Spirit.

Agreed that the starting point is not unbelieving Jews but people who have answered the call to follow Christ and then hopefully have had the Holy Spirit breathed on them but I am sure that many think that answering the call is sufficient.

 

[Episkopos]

What's the difference between SUSPENSION and ERADICATION?
I mean, practically.....

Eradication means it is gone for good. Suspension means you don't have it for a time, or maybe longer. If you get a suspended drivers license, does that mean it has been eradicated?

To suspend means to stop something from being in force.....like to suspend a law.

To eradicate means to remove completely, to destroy......

In both cases the object/law in question is no more.

Not at all. One is gone forever and the other has been "remitted" ...pushed into the future. The possibility remains that a suspension can be indeed equivalent to an eradication...for some. But most will not be able to remain in a place where remission means eradication. As long as we are alive in the flesh we can fail the grace of God.

 

[Hepzibah]

Johann and everyone, I'm just having trouble grappling with things right now and have gone into silent mode....don't feel like talking and don't know what to say anyhow. Feeling hormonal too and maybe my difficulty right now is just due to aging, ugh....some days are better or worse than others these days. I think I need to wait on the Lord for these things at the moment.

Right now it looks like some of these things can be taken either way and maybe both are true in some cases, but I just am not sure....my head is not too clear. The bible says we have the mind of Christ and that all things are possible with God, so I don't want to limit what is possible. At the same time I think there is the matter of growth involved and I am not sure it is like a hard and fast rule (letter of a Law) that everyone has to "attain" perfection in this life. Like Paul said, He who judges us is the Lord, the living Lord and righteous judge who alone knows all the "ins and outs" of every soul and their individual circumstances and battles in this life. I wonder if everyone is responsible to do their best with what they have been dealt with both in terms of measure of grace/faith as well as individual battle ground, and God will judge accordingly. Kind of a bell curve rather than the same goal line that everyone has to reach...? I think the bible indicates He doesn't judge the way man does, by outward measures...? Just some thoughts rolling around that I can't even really grasp to know whether any of it makes sense or not, lol. Think I'll just take a chair in the back of the room for now.

1Thess 1:4 says: For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication. It is God's will. Cirumstances do not count because it is through His power alone. All we need is to be willing.

If you are felling a bit disturbed sister rejoice because this is the result of hearing the truth of this doctrine. The Holy Spirit is working in you just let Him have His way.