The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

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Episkopos

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So you are saying eis Christ Jesus you are incapable of committing an act of sin? Correct?
Not incapable.....we are always like a ball in play. In Christ we have no interest in the flesh. The key to not sinning is not by trying not to sin...but just remaining in Christ....where there is no sin. In Him is no sin. Simple enough.

Unless you are looking for a Jesus that is a minister of sin and in sin? Paul calls these transgressors.
 
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Johann

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Did you happen to see my post 467?

Just some statements:
My pastor at a Nazarene church taught that just committing a sin would cause one to forfeit their salvation.
This sounded very wrong to me and I was a new Christian.

Now, many years later, I know that even monks, that live with very little contact with people, sin and go to confession.

So, what is the truth?

As usual I read up on what the early church believed.

Seems the early church experienced a problem.....
It was believed that once baptized, persons would no longer sin.
Instead they did.

But John provided for this, didn't he?
Yes, he did.

So, the answer, IMO, is a bit complicated.

I guess in the end I believe that we strive for perfection...
but I don't think we could really expect it.
Well said @GodsGrace and yes, I have read your post and agree with this from you--

"I guess in the end I believe that we strive for perfection...

but I don't think we could really expect it."

Unfortunately we cannot go into a deeper dialogue on these fundamental doctrines and like you I read up on the church fathers and lo!--even there are some disagreements!

But we have the mind of Christ Jesus-sealed with the Holy Spirit-praise God!

An aside-I can be a Monk sitting on a mountain away from the world and it's problems and still commit acts of sin as a believer in Christ.

Thank you and God bless, shalom to you and family.
Johann.
 

Behold

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Now, many years later, I know that even monks, that live with very little contact with people, sin and go to confession.

So, what is the truth?

If a Monk, or a Believer, born again, is confessing sin, then that is because they are not understanding what it means to have become "IN Christ", where there is NO SIN.

Think of it like this, Reader.

Is there Sin in God?
Is there SIn in Christ?
Is there Sin in Heaven ?

A.) NO

And the born again, are 'in Christ"... "One with God".. ."seated in Heavenly places"..


"but behold, my cult, my church, my pope, my commentary, my friend on the forum...// says i have sin"..

Yes i know, and that is a lie, and you believed it.
 

GodsGrace

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Eradication means it is gone for good. Suspension means you don't have it for a time, or maybe longer. If you get a suspended drivers license, does that mean it has been eradicated?

Not at all. One is gone forever and the other has been "remitted" ...pushed into the future. The possibility remains that a suspension can be indeed equivalent to an eradication...for some. But most will not be able to remain in a place where remission means eradication. As long as we are alive in the flesh we can fail the grace of God.
Agreed.
You're right.

Suspended is for a time (possibly even forever).

Now I forget what you had said that made me interested !!

Are you saying our sin nature is suspended or eradicated??
 
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Johann

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Not incapable.....we are always like a ball in play. In Christ we have no interest in the flesh. The key to not sinning is not by trying not to sin...but just remaining in Christ....where there is no sin. In Him is no sin. Simple enough.

Unless you are looking for a Jesus that is a minister of sin and in sin? Paul calls these transgressors.
You cannot answer a simple question-can a believer eis Christ Jesus commit an act of sin?
So far I have received hundreds of deflecting answers-but thank you for the attempt.
 

Hepzibah

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The statement that "sanctification is the total eradication of the carnal nature, so that sinless perfection is attained in this life" is a view associated with some strands of Christian theology, particularly within certain holiness movements. However, it is a contested view, and many theologians would argue that it is not fully supported by Scripture or the broader Christian tradition.

Johann makes it sound as though only a fringe believed in entire sanctification in this life which is not true. Apart from it being the main doctrine of the early years that is the first few hundred years before Augustine came along and led the west into many errors, it has continued and been opposed in all of the western denominations.

Here is a list of them that substantially adhered to the doctrine:


It was also found in the RCC as in St John of the Cross and continued in Orthodoxy till this day, though admittedly not easy to find.

There has been a lot of debate as to the meaning of the Greek as to whether it means eradication or suspension but both mean put out of action. That means that man does not have to wait till he dies for God to perform the restoration He promised.

When addressing whether or not believers can achieve "sinless perfection" in this life, it's essential to clarify what is meant by the term.

1. Understanding "Sinless Perfection":
Absolute Sinless Perfection: This view suggests that a person can reach a state in this life where they are entirely free from sin, both in thought and action. This idea is generally considered incorrect by most mainstream Christian traditions, which argue that while sanctification involves growth in holiness, it does not result in absolute sinlessness in this life.

Some think that it means never to sin again but that is not true.. We never reach a state when we cannot sin if we wish.
Relative Perfection: Some theologians speak of a type of "perfection" that is relative rather than absolute. This might mean living in consistent victory over known sin and being fully devoted to God, but it does not mean being entirely free from all sin.

2. Scriptural Considerations:
1 John 1:8-10: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." This passage suggests that believers continue to sin and need ongoing forgiveness.

Romans 7:14-25: Paul describes his ongoing struggle with sin, even as a believer. He speaks of a battle between his desire to do good and the sin that still dwells within him. This passage is often cited to argue against the idea of sinless perfection in this life.

Philippians 3:12-14: Paul acknowledges that he has not yet attained perfection but is pressing on toward it. This suggests that the Christian life involves continuous growth and striving for holiness, rather than achieving complete sinlessness in this life.
 
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Hepzibah

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These three objections and others have been amply dealt with throughout church history as taken out of context. I have posted on them on this forum and they can be found, the latest on this thread on the Phillipian 3 one. They are easily explained.
3. Theological Reflections:
Augustine and Original Sin: Augustine emphasized the pervasive nature of sin and the idea of "original sin," arguing that sin affects every aspect of human nature. For Augustine, while believers are sanctified and grow in holiness, they do not attain absolute sinlessness in this life.

Reformation Theology: Reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin also rejected the notion of sinless perfection. They emphasized that sanctification is a process that continues throughout the believer’s life, and that sin remains a reality, even for those who are genuinely regenerated and growing in grace.

John Wesley: Wesley's concept of "Christian perfection" or "entire sanctification" is often misunderstood. Wesley did not teach that believers could be free from all sin, but rather that they could be freed from willful sin and could live in perfect love. Even in Wesleyan theology, the idea of sinless perfection is not absolute, but relative and contingent on continued reliance on God's grace.

John Wesley cannot be used as he was not consistent in what he said on the matter and some say his writings have been corrupted. He seemed to say willful sin only but seemed to tech the opposite at times. I think that Johann will admit he is not an expert on Wesley or this subject - just an objector.
4. Practical Implications:
Growth in Holiness: The Christian life is marked by growth in holiness, where believers increasingly reflect Christ's character. However, this growth does not mean the complete eradication of the sinful nature but rather a progressive transformation.
Humility and Dependence on God: Recognizing that sin remains a reality even for believers fosters humility and a continued reliance on God's grace and the work of the Holy Spirit.

This is a fallacy. When one depends on God's grace moment by moment to keep one free from sin, the person is extremely humble but we have to exclude those who think they are in the blessing but are not which seemed quite common during the revivals.
In response to the statement, it is important to clarify that while sanctification involves growth in holiness and increasing victory over sin, the idea of achieving sinless perfection in this life is not widely supported by Scripture or traditional Christian theology. Most Christian traditions emphasize that sanctification is a lifelong process of becoming more like Christ, but believers remain in need of God’s grace and forgiveness throughout their lives.

Would you agree with the above?
No. God's grace is required even more by those in this blessing.
 

GodsGrace

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Are we to strive ourselves for perfection or strive to enter into Christ who knew no sin?
Strive for ourselves with the help of the Holy Spirit.

I don't read anywhere in the NT that states that Jesus is going to do everything for us - which is what I hear a lot.

As far as I can understand, the Holy Spirit ENTERS INTO US,,,,not the other way around.

Jesus said He had to go away so the HELPER could come to convict the world of sin
and, since He is called a helper, to help us and comfort us.
John 16:7-8
. 7“But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;


To convict means to affirm, convince....in this case.

The Holy Spirit will affirm what sin is...
what righteousness is...
and what judgment is.

And what does righteous mean....
to be right with God.

Jesus wants us to be right with God.
Where does it say we are right with God ONLY by believing in Him?
(which many state).
 
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Hepzibah

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However, it is a contested view, and many theologians would argue that it is not fully supported by Scripture or the broader Christian tradition
By the way, there has been an upsurge of interest in scholars over the doctrine and many writings by them can be found online.
 

GodsGrace

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Johann makes it sound as though only a fringe believed in entire sanctification in this life which is not true. Apart from it being the main doctrine of the early years that is the first few hundred years before Augustine came along and led the west into many errors, it has continued and been opposed in all of the western denominations.

The early church, pre 325AD, did have a belief that after baptism persons would no longer commit sin.
This was not found to be happening.
Thus, the early church was faced with a problem....
Many waited to be on their death bed to be baptized so that all their previous life-long sins could be forgiven.
This was not very practical and the church had to come up with a solution.

The solutions was confession....which gradually became what we see today in the CC and also some other denominations, for example the Orthodox also offer confession and I believe Anglicans do (not sure).

We also should remember that John made provision for sin,,,,,
as did Jesus in John 23 when He gave the Apostles authority to forgive sin --- whatever that may mean...there are differing opinions.

Here is a list of them that substantially adhered to the doctrine:


As to the Nazarene church, of which I used to be a member many years ago,
I do believe they have changed their position on sinless perfection....giving way to the teaching
that it is almost (I say almost) impossible to live a sinless life.

It was also found in the RCC as in St John of the Cross and continued in Orthodoxy till this day, though admittedly not easy to find.

St. John of the Cross experienced a relationship with God that is very rare indeed.
I cannot remember the name of his experience, but it was so complete as for a person to be almost removed from this life.
Some other saints have experienced this, but very few.

There has been a lot of debate as to the meaning of the Greek as to whether it means eradication or suspension but both mean put out of action. That means that man does not have to wait till he dies for God to perform the restoration He promised to the state prior to the fall of man.


Some think that it means never to sin again but that is not true.. We never reach a state when we cannot sin if we wish.
I'm sorry H, I don't know you well, but aren't the above two statements contradictory??

here they are:

There has been a lot of debate as to the meaning of the Greek as to whether it means eradication or suspension but both mean put out of action. That means that man does not have to wait till he dies for God to perform the restoration He promised to the state prior to the fall of man.


Some think that it means never to sin again but that is not true.. We never reach a state when we cannot sin if we wish.
 
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GodsGrace

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Well said @GodsGrace and yes, I have read your post and agree with this from you--

"I guess in the end I believe that we strive for perfection...

but I don't think we could really expect it."

Unfortunately we cannot go into a deeper dialogue on these fundamental doctrines and like you I read up on the church fathers and lo!--even there are some disagreements!

But we have the mind of Christ Jesus-sealed with the Holy Spirit-praise God!

An aside-I can be a Monk sitting on a mountain away from the world and it's problems and still commit acts of sin as a believer in Christ.

Thank you and God bless, shalom to you and family.
Johann.
Correct.
And let's not forget our THOUGHTS!

Just thinking something is not a sin....
but we also DWELL....
 
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Johann

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Johann makes it sound as though only a fringe believed in entire sanctification in this life which is not true. Apart from it being the main doctrine of the early years that is the first few hundred years before Augustine came along and led the west into many errors, it has continued and been opposed in all of the western denominations.
You are going to have to do better than that @Hepzibah.


The concept of entire sanctification is associated primarily with the Wesleyan-Holiness tradition, particularly within Methodism. It is understood as a second work of grace following conversion, where the believer is cleansed from original sin and empowered to live a holy life. The question of whether entire sanctification is scriptural is a subject of debate among theologians, with some arguing that it is supported by Scripture, while others contend that the concept is not explicitly found in the Bible.

Scriptural Arguments for Entire Sanctification:
1 Thessalonians 5:23: "May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Proponents of entire sanctification argue that this verse supports the idea of complete sanctification, where the believer is wholly set apart for God in every aspect of their being. The prayer for sanctification "completely" (Greek: holotelēs) is interpreted as pointing toward a thorough or entire sanctification.

Romans 6:6: "We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin."

This passage is often cited to argue that believers can be freed from the dominion of sin, supporting the idea of a subsequent, deeper sanctification where sin’s power is broken.

1 John 3:9: "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

Advocates for entire sanctification interpret this passage as indicating that true believers, those who are fully sanctified, will not continue in habitual sin. This is seen as evidence of a sanctification that removes the root of sin in the believer’s life.

Scriptural Arguments Against Entire Sanctification:

1 John 1:8: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

Critics of the doctrine of entire sanctification argue that this verse suggests that sin remains a reality for all believers, implying that total eradication of sin is not achievable in this life.

Philippians 3:12: "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me."

Paul’s admission that he has not yet attained perfection is often cited as evidence that even the most mature Christians, including Paul himself, do not reach a state of sinless perfection or entire sanctification in this life.

Romans 7:14-25: In this passage, Paul describes an ongoing struggle with sin, even as a believer. This struggle is seen by many as an indication that the complete eradication of sin is not achievable until the final glorification at the return of Christ.

Theological Reflection:
John Wesley: John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, taught that entire sanctification, or Christian perfection, is attainable in this life, but he did not equate it with sinless perfection in the absolute sense. He understood it as perfect love—love for God and neighbor that drives out willful sin. Wesleyan theologians have often emphasized that this state is not permanent or unchangeable and requires continuous dependence on God’s grace.

Holiness Movement: The Holiness movement, which grew out of Methodism, further developed the doctrine of entire sanctification, teaching it as a distinct experience after conversion. However, this teaching has been controversial, and not all Christian traditions accept it.


While the doctrine of entire sanctification is rooted in Scripture according to proponents, it is not universally accepted as scriptural by all Christian traditions. Those who advocate for it interpret certain passages as supporting the possibility of a deeper, more complete sanctification in this life, while others argue that sin remains a reality until final glorification. The debate centers on how to interpret the process of sanctification and the nature of Christian perfection.

Early Church Fathers and Sanctification:
Clement of Alexandria
(c. 150–215 AD): Clement spoke of the process of perfection and Christian virtue, emphasizing the idea that Christians should strive to live holy lives. He discussed the concept of the gnostic Christian, a mature believer who has achieved a high level of spiritual maturity, which could be seen as a precursor to later ideas of entire sanctification, though not in the exact terms of Wesleyan theology.

Origen (c. 184–253 AD): Origen wrote extensively about the spiritual journey of the Christian soul toward perfection. He viewed the Christian life as a continuous process of purification and sanctification, aiming for a spiritual maturity that reflects the holiness of God. However, like Clement, Origen’s concept of sanctification is more about ongoing growth and maturity rather than a definitive second work of grace leading to entire sanctification.

Augustine of Hippo (354–430 AD): Augustine is a key figure in early Christian theology, but his views on sin and grace are somewhat at odds with the concept of entire sanctification. Augustine emphasized the pervasive nature of sin and the need for ongoing grace throughout the Christian life, arguing against the possibility of achieving sinless perfection in this life. His doctrine of original sin and the necessity of grace at every stage of life was influential in shaping the Western Church's views on sanctification.


The idea of entire sanctification as a distinct, post-conversion experience is not found explicitly in the writings of the earliest Church Fathers. While they discussed the importance of holiness, sanctification, and spiritual maturity, the specific concept of entire sanctification as taught by John Wesley and later Holiness movements was not articulated by these early Christian thinkers.

The first explicit articulation of something akin to entire sanctification is generally credited to John Wesley in the 18th century, though Wesley himself was influenced by earlier Christian teachings on holiness and sanctification. Wesley’s concept of Christian perfection was innovative in its emphasis on the possibility of being perfected in love in this life, which laid the foundation for the Holiness movement’s doctrine of entire sanctification.

The concept of entire sanctification—understood as a complete cleansing from sin or a state of sinless perfection—is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible in the exact terms used by the Wesleyan-Holiness tradition
. However, the idea of believers striving for holiness, being set apart for God, and progressing toward spiritual maturity is well-attested in Scripture. Below are some key passages that are often referenced in discussions about sanctification:

Key Scriptural Passages:
1 Thessalonians 5:23:

"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

This verse is sometimes cited to support the idea of entire sanctification because it speaks of God sanctifying believers "completely" (Greek: holotelēs), suggesting a thorough or entire sanctification of the believer’s whole being.
Romans 6:6:

"We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin."
This passage is used to argue that believers are no longer under the dominion of sin, which some interpret as a form of entire sanctification where the power of sin is broken.
Romans 12:1-2:

"I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."
The call to present oneself as a "living sacrifice" and to be transformed is seen by some as a call to a deeper sanctification, though it does not necessarily imply sinless perfection.
2 Corinthians 7:1:

"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God."
This verse emphasizes the process of sanctification, urging believers to pursue holiness. The idea of "bringing holiness to completion" suggests an ongoing work of God in the believer's life, though it does not explicitly refer to entire sanctification.
Hebrews 12:14:

"Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."
This verse highlights the necessity of holiness in the Christian life, which some interpret as part of the process of sanctification. However, it is not an explicit reference to entire sanctification as understood in Wesleyan terms.

Personally-I take the Scriptures any time on this now "controversial topic re sanctification" though don't deny we can glean from the writings of the ECF's.
J.
 
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GodsGrace

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If a Monk, or a Believer, born again, is confessing sin, then that is because they are not understanding what it means to have become "IN Christ", where there is NO SIN.

Think of it like this, Reader.

Is there Sin in God?
Is there SIn in Christ?
Is there Sin in Heaven ?

A.) NO

And the born again, are 'in Christ"... "One with God".. ."seated in Heavenly places"..


"but behold, my cult, my church, my pope, my commentary, my friend on the forum...// says i have sin"..

Yes i know, and that is a lie, and you believed it.
I posted about being in heavenly places and you never replied.

Are you PHYSICALLY seated in heavenly places?
No.

And, as I stated to another member here:

We are in Christ.

We are IN CHRIST IF we are walking with Him.
If NOT, we have no place in Christ.

Jesus said to ABIDE IN HIM....
If we do not abide in Him...

THIS is what happens:

We are thrown away as a branch that does not bear fruit,
we dry up,
we are gathered and cast into the fire.
John 15:6

Jesus said that HE WHO ABIDES in Me bears much fruit.
IF we are to abide in Christ, we are to bear much fruit.
John 15:5

Or the consequence is verse 6.

It's your prerogative if you don't care to obey or learn from Jesus.

I don't see anywhere in the NT where it states that IF WE ARE IN CHRIST we need do nothing, live in any special way, or otherwise be concerned about our salvation.

I DO see everywhere in the NT exhortations to live a good life and FOLLOW and LEARN from Jesus.
THIS would not be necessary if you are correct in your understanding.
 

Hepzibah

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The early church, pre 325AD, did have a belief that after baptism persons would no longer commit sin.
This was not found to be happening.
Thus, the early church was faced with a problem....

The problem is that after water baptism, the priest would lay hands on the person and pray for the Holy Spirit to fall on them that is to say, the baptism of the Holy Spirit and freedom from sin. So really it was both together and we know that water does not save, thanks to Peter.
Many waited to be on their death bed to be baptized so that all their previous life-long sins could be forgiven.
This was not very practical and the church had to come up with a solution.

The solutions was confession....which gradually became what we see today in the CC and also some other denominations, for example the Orthodox also offer confession and I believe Anglicans do (not

I believe that the EO church soon became rife with wrong teachings. But not his one that was unanimous - you either believed in Theosis or you thought that it was gradual.
sure).

We also should remember that John made provision for sin,,,,,
as did Jesus in John 23 when He gave the Apostles authority to forgive sin --- whatever that may mean...there are differing opinions.

John said IF not when.
As to the Nazarene church, of which I used to be a member many years ago,
I do believe they have changed their position on sinless perfection....giving way to the teaching
that it is almost (I say almost) impossible to live a sinless life.



St. John of the Cross experienced a relationship with God that is very rare indeed.
I cannot remember the name of his experience, but it was so complete as for a person to be almost removed from this life.
Some other saints have experienced this, but very few.


I'm sorry H, I don't know you well, but aren't the above two statements contradictory??

here they are:

There has been a lot of debate as to the meaning of the Greek as to whether it means eradication or suspension but both mean put out of action. That means that man does not have to wait till he dies for God to perform the restoration He promised to the state prior to the fall of man.


Some think that it means never to sin again but that is not true.. We never reach a state when we cannot sin if we wish.

I don't see a contradiction please explain.
 

Hepzibah

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Augustine of Hippo (354–430 AD): Augustine is a key figure in early Christian theology
Only in the Latin West. The eastern side ignored him or thought him a heretic.
 

GodsGrace

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You are going to have to do better than that @Hepzibah.


The concept of entire sanctification is associated primarily with the Wesleyan-Holiness tradition, particularly within Methodism. It is understood as a second work of grace following conversion, where the believer is cleansed from original sin and empowered to live a holy life. The question of whether entire sanctification is scriptural is a subject of debate among theologians, with some arguing that it is supported by Scripture, while others contend that the concept is not explicitly found in the Bible.

Scriptural Arguments for Entire Sanctification:
1 Thessalonians 5:23: "May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Proponents of entire sanctification argue that this verse supports the idea of complete sanctification, where the believer is wholly set apart for God in every aspect of their being. The prayer for sanctification "completely" (Greek: holotelēs) is interpreted as pointing toward a thorough or entire sanctification.

Romans 6:6: "We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin."

This passage is often cited to argue that believers can be freed from the dominion of sin, supporting the idea of a subsequent, deeper sanctification where sin’s power is broken.

1 John 3:9: "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

Advocates for entire sanctification interpret this passage as indicating that true believers, those who are fully sanctified, will not continue in habitual sin. This is seen as evidence of a sanctification that removes the root of sin in the believer’s life.

Scriptural Arguments Against Entire Sanctification:

1 John 1:8: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

Critics of the doctrine of entire sanctification argue that this verse suggests that sin remains a reality for all believers, implying that total eradication of sin is not achievable in this life.

Philippians 3:12: "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me."

Paul’s admission that he has not yet attained perfection is often cited as evidence that even the most mature Christians, including Paul himself, do not reach a state of sinless perfection or entire sanctification in this life.

Romans 7:14-25: In this passage, Paul describes an ongoing struggle with sin, even as a believer. This struggle is seen by many as an indication that the complete eradication of sin is not achievable until the final glorification at the return of Christ.

Theological Reflection:
John Wesley: John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, taught that entire sanctification, or Christian perfection, is attainable in this life, but he did not equate it with sinless perfection in the absolute sense. He understood it as perfect love—love for God and neighbor that drives out willful sin. Wesleyan theologians have often emphasized that this state is not permanent or unchangeable and requires continuous dependence on God’s grace.

Holiness Movement: The Holiness movement, which grew out of Methodism, further developed the doctrine of entire sanctification, teaching it as a distinct experience after conversion. However, this teaching has been controversial, and not all Christian traditions accept it.


While the doctrine of entire sanctification is rooted in Scripture according to proponents, it is not universally accepted as scriptural by all Christian traditions. Those who advocate for it interpret certain passages as supporting the possibility of a deeper, more complete sanctification in this life, while others argue that sin remains a reality until final glorification. The debate centers on how to interpret the process of sanctification and the nature of Christian perfection.

Early Church Fathers and Sanctification:
Clement of Alexandria
(c. 150–215 AD): Clement spoke of the process of perfection and Christian virtue, emphasizing the idea that Christians should strive to live holy lives. He discussed the concept of the gnostic Christian, a mature believer who has achieved a high level of spiritual maturity, which could be seen as a precursor to later ideas of entire sanctification, though not in the exact terms of Wesleyan theology.

Origen (c. 184–253 AD): Origen wrote extensively about the spiritual journey of the Christian soul toward perfection. He viewed the Christian life as a continuous process of purification and sanctification, aiming for a spiritual maturity that reflects the holiness of God. However, like Clement, Origen’s concept of sanctification is more about ongoing growth and maturity rather than a definitive second work of grace leading to entire sanctification.

Augustine of Hippo (354–430 AD): Augustine is a key figure in early Christian theology, but his views on sin and grace are somewhat at odds with the concept of entire sanctification. Augustine emphasized the pervasive nature of sin and the need for ongoing grace throughout the Christian life, arguing against the possibility of achieving sinless perfection in this life. His doctrine of original sin and the necessity of grace at every stage of life was influential in shaping the Western Church's views on sanctification.


The idea of entire sanctification as a distinct, post-conversion experience is not found explicitly in the writings of the earliest Church Fathers. While they discussed the importance of holiness, sanctification, and spiritual maturity, the specific concept of entire sanctification as taught by John Wesley and later Holiness movements was not articulated by these early Christian thinkers.

The first explicit articulation of something akin to entire sanctification is generally credited to John Wesley in the 18th century, though Wesley himself was influenced by earlier Christian teachings on holiness and sanctification. Wesley’s concept of Christian perfection was innovative in its emphasis on the possibility of being perfected in love in this life, which laid the foundation for the Holiness movement’s doctrine of entire sanctification.

The concept of entire sanctification—understood as a complete cleansing from sin or a state of sinless perfection—is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible in the exact terms used by the Wesleyan-Holiness tradition
. However, the idea of believers striving for holiness, being set apart for God, and progressing toward spiritual maturity is well-attested in Scripture. Below are some key passages that are often referenced in discussions about sanctification:

Key Scriptural Passages:
1 Thessalonians 5:23:

"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

This verse is sometimes cited to support the idea of entire sanctification because it speaks of God sanctifying believers "completely" (Greek: holotelēs), suggesting a thorough or entire sanctification of the believer’s whole being.
Romans 6:6:

"We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin."
This passage is used to argue that believers are no longer under the dominion of sin, which some interpret as a form of entire sanctification where the power of sin is broken.
Romans 12:1-2:

"I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."
The call to present oneself as a "living sacrifice" and to be transformed is seen by some as a call to a deeper sanctification, though it does not necessarily imply sinless perfection.
2 Corinthians 7:1:

"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God."
This verse emphasizes the process of sanctification, urging believers to pursue holiness. The idea of "bringing holiness to completion" suggests an ongoing work of God in the believer's life, though it does not explicitly refer to entire sanctification.
Hebrews 12:14:

"Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."
This verse highlights the necessity of holiness in the Christian life, which some interpret as part of the process of sanctification. However, it is not an explicit reference to entire sanctification as understood in Wesleyan terms.

Personally-I take the Scriptures any time on this now "controversial topic re sanctification" though don't deny we can glean from the writings of the ECF's.
J.
Great post!
:Thumbsup:
 
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Johann

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John Wesley cannot be used as he was not consistent in what he said on the matter and some say his writings have been corrupted. He seemed to say willful sin only but seemed to tech the opposite at times. I think that Johann will admit he is not an expert on Wesley or this subject - just an objector.
Amazing, some verses in our Bible is "incorrect" and now John Wesley and though I don't claim that I am an expert I am a verocious reader--looks like you are not consistent in using the Scriptures here @Hepzibah in other words, selective reading-not good.
 
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Johann

Guest
Only in the Latin West. The eastern side ignored him or thought him a heretic.
Correct--and confusion reigns.

Key Theologian: Augustine is considered one of the most important Church Fathers in the Latin West. His works, such as Confessions, The City of God, and On the Trinity, had a lasting impact on Western theology and philosophy. His views on sin and grace, especially articulated in his debates with the Pelagians, became foundational for Western Christian thought.
Reception in the Eastern Church:
Limited Influence: Augustine's influence was not as pronounced in the Eastern Orthodox Church. The theological traditions in the Greek-speaking East were shaped more by figures like the Cappadocian Fathers (Basil the Great, Gregory of Nazianzus, and Gregory of Nyssa) and John Chrysostom. Eastern theology developed differently, focusing more on theosis (deification) and a different understanding of grace.

Criticism and Skepticism: Some Eastern theologians were skeptical of Augustine's teachings, particularly his views on original sin and predestination. While Augustine was not widely regarded as a heretic in the East, his ideas were not fully embraced, and some Eastern Orthodox theologians have criticized aspects of his theology.
J.
 
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Johann

Guest
By the way, there has been an upsurge of interest in scholars over the doctrine and many writings by them can be found online.
What matters is what is written and established in the Scriptures, as they stand in their enduring truth. Meanwhile, many are more interested in having their ears tickled by what pleases them, rather than seeking the solid foundation of God's Word.