The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Johann]

Yes. There is the need to know how not to slip back into seeing things from human eyes rather than spiritual, and all of the guiles of the enemy and keep them in mind which is the hardest. But that longing for more closeness with God has been satisfied. He has filled the hole as it were.


sister, that bit of Philippians is mistranslated. All of the so called objections to the doctrine can be answered and were done so repeatedly during the Holiness Revels that swept America. I wrote a piece on the Philippian one.

Reaching the state of Theosis eventually becomes static, as in the pillars of the temple no longer going out. But yet here still remains the possibility that one can fall - always remains in this life but harder to restore the longer one goes on as for my experience.

No-no mistranslation @Hepzibah and no more need for holiness revivals and I do notice in most of your interactions you hardly quote Scriptures-that's a red flag to me.
Adieu
No need to respond.


Context of Philippians 3:13-14
1. Background of the Letter to the Philippians:
Authorship and Purpose: The Apostle Paul wrote this letter while he was imprisoned, likely in Rome around 61-62 A.D. Despite his circumstances, the letter is often called the "Epistle of Joy" because of its repeated emphasis on rejoicing in the Lord.
Audience: The letter was addressed to the Christian community in Philippi, a Roman colony in Macedonia. This church was one of the first Christian communities established in Europe (Acts 16:12-40).

2. Immediate Context in Philippians 3:1-12:
Warning Against Legalism: In Philippians 3:1-6, Paul warns the believers against placing confidence in the flesh, referring to those who advocated for the necessity of circumcision and adherence to Jewish law for salvation. Paul lists his own credentials as a devout Jew but declares them worthless compared to knowing Christ.

Pursuing Christ: In verses 7-11, Paul emphasizes the surpassing value of knowing Christ and being found in Him. He expresses his desire to know Christ more deeply, to experience the power of His resurrection, and to participate in His sufferings, even if it means becoming like Him in His death, so that he might attain resurrection from the dead.

Paul’s Admission: In verse 12, Paul admits that he has not yet reached the fullness of this experience or perfection, but he continues to press on to take hold of that for which Christ took hold of him.

3. Meaning of Philippians 3:13-14:

Personal Reflection: Paul acknowledges that he has not yet "taken hold" of the ultimate goal, which is the complete and perfect knowledge of Christ and the fullness of his salvation. This humility reflects Paul’s ongoing pursuit of spiritual growth.

Forgetting the Past: Paul speaks of "forgetting what is behind," which can be understood as both his past accomplishments (which he now considers insignificant in comparison to knowing Christ) and his past failures or sins. This doesn’t mean he literally forgets, but rather that he doesn’t let the past hinder his present pursuit of Christ.

Straining Toward the Future: Paul uses the metaphor of a runner in a race, straining toward the finish line. This image conveys intense effort and focus on what lies ahead, symbolizing his pursuit of spiritual maturity and the ultimate reward of being united with Christ.

The Goal and the Prize: The "goal" Paul refers to is the end of the race of faith, and the "prize" is the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. This likely refers to the final salvation and eternal life with Christ that God promises to believers. Paul is not just focused on earthly achievements but on the heavenly reward that awaits him.

Application and Reflection:
Perseverance in Faith: Paul’s words encourage believers to continue pressing forward in their spiritual journey, not being held back by the past but focusing on the ultimate goal of knowing Christ fully.

Spiritual Growth: This passage reminds Christians that spiritual growth is a lifelong process. Perfection or complete maturity isn’t something we achieve instantly; it’s something we strive toward continually.

Heavenly Focus: Paul’s focus is on the "prize" of being called heavenward in Christ Jesus, reminding believers to keep their eyes on eternal, rather than temporal, goals.

Philippians 3:13-14 encapsulates Paul’s passionate pursuit of knowing Christ and attaining the fullness of salvation. It’s a call to believers to press on in their faith, focusing on the future promises of God rather than being hindered by the past. Paul’s example encourages a life of dedication, perseverance, and an unwavering focus on the ultimate goal of eternal life with Christ.

Greek Text (Textus Receptus):
Philippians 3:13-14
13 ἀδελφοί, ἐγὼ ἐμαυτὸν οὐ λογίζομαι κατειληφέναι· ἓν δέ· τὰ μὲν ὀπίσω ἐπιλανθανόμενος, τοῖς δὲ ἔμπροσθεν ἐπεκτεινόμενος,
14 κατὰ σκοπὸν διώκω εἰς τὸ βραβεῖον τῆς ἄνω κλήσεως τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ.

Verse 13:
ἀδελφοί (adelphoi) - "brothers" (vocative masculine plural of ἀδελφός)
Vocative case, used for direct address.
ἐγὼ (egō) - "I" (first person singular pronoun)
ἐμαυτὸν (emauton) - "myself" (accusative masculine singular reflexive pronoun)
οὐ (ou) - "not" (negation particle)
λογίζομαι (logizomai) - "I consider" (present middle/passive indicative, first person singular of λογίζομαι)
κατειληφέναι (kateilēphenai) - "to have taken hold of" (perfect active infinitive of καταλαμβάνω)

Rev., have attained, am made perfect. There is a change of tenses which may be intentional; the aorist attained pointing to the definite period of his conversion, the perfect, am made perfect, referring to his present state. Neither when I became Christ's did I attain, nor, up to this time, have I been perfected. With attained supply the prize from Php_3:14. Rev., am made perfect, is preferable, as preserving the passive form of the verb.

Or am already made perfect (ē ēdē teteleiōmai). Perfect passive indicative (state of completion) of teleioō, old verb from teleios and that from telos (end). Paul pointedly denies that he has reached a spiritual impasse of non- development. Certainly he knew nothing of so-called sudden absolute perfection by any single experience. Paul has made great progress in Christlikeness, but the goal is still before him, not behind him.

ἓν (hen) - "one thing" (neuter singular nominative pronoun)
δέ (de) - "but" (conjunction)
τὰ (ta) - "the things" (neuter plural accusative article)
μὲν (men) - "on the one hand" (conjunction, often paired with δέ, not translated separately)
ὀπίσω (opisō) - "behind" (adverb)
ἐπιλανθανόμενος (epilanthánomenos) - "forgetting" (present middle/passive participle, masculine nominative singular of ἐπιλανθάνομαι)
τοῖς (tois) - "the things" (neuter plural dative article)
δὲ (de) - "but" (conjunction)
ἔμπροσθεν (emprosthen) - "ahead" (adverb)
ἐπεκτεινόμενος (epekteinómenos) - "straining toward" (present middle/passive participle, masculine nominative singular of ἐπεκτείνομαι)
Verse 14:
κατὰ (kata) - "toward" or "according to" (preposition, takes accusative)
σκοπὸν (skopon) - "goal" (masculine singular accusative of σκοπός)
διώκω (diōkō) - "I press on" (present active indicative, first person singular of διώκω)
εἰς (eis) - "for" or "toward" (preposition, takes accusative)
τὸ (to) - "the" (neuter singular accusative article)
βραβεῖον (brabeion) - "prize" (neuter singular accusative of βραβεῖον)
τῆς (tēs) - "of the" (feminine singular genitive article)
ἄνω (anō) - "upward" or "heavenward" (adjective, feminine singular genitive)
κλήσεως (klēseōs) - "calling" (feminine singular genitive of κλῆσις)
τοῦ (tou) - "of the" (masculine singular genitive article)
Θεοῦ (Theou) - "God" (masculine singular genitive of Θεός)
ἐν (en) - "in" (preposition, takes dative)
Χριστῷ (Christō) - "Christ" (masculine singular dative of Χριστός)
Ἰησοῦ (Iēsou) - "Jesus" (masculine singular dative of Ἰησοῦς)
Summary of the Grammar and Morphology:
Participle Forms: The participles "ἐπιλανθανόμενος" and "ἐπεκτεινόμενος" are in the present tense, middle/passive voice, nominative singular, and masculine, indicating ongoing action performed by the subject (Paul).
Infinitive Form: The verb "κατειληφέναι" is a perfect active infinitive, indicating a completed action (the idea of "having taken hold of" something).
Nominative Case: Used for subjects (e.g., "ἐγὼ" for "I").
Accusative Case: Used for direct objects (e.g., "ἐμαυτὸν" for "myself").
Genitive Case: Used to indicate possession or relationship (e.g., "τῆς ἄνω κλήσεως" for "the upward call").
Dative Case: Often used with prepositions (e.g., "ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ" for "in Christ Jesus").

 

[Hepzibah]

The Heart and the Philippians

The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked and who can know it? Jer 17:9

For as he thinks in his heart so is he Prov: 7

For out of the heart proceeds evil thoughts Matt 15:19

It is the heart which is the seat of the moral life not the mind. It depends on what state our heart is in which governs and clouds our thoughts. David knew his problem when he cries out to God: -

Create in me a clean heart O God and renew a right spirit within me Ps 10:10

God promises His people that He will put a new heart within them. As it is from the heart that the affections come and as even those outside Christ know, it is what man loves which governs how he lives. Without a new heart we cannot see God: -

Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God Matt 5:8

But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit which is in the sight of God of great price 1Pter 3:4

Reading the entries for heart in Strong's is a very useful thing to do. Satan attempts to put temptations into our minds but those who have a pure heart, the temptations of the flesh are no longer a problem so he has to tempt along a different line. In the state of entire sanctification there are no evil thoughts. All of the thoughts are centred on God and how to obey and how to serve Him because this is all that is in the heart to do. So it is not a conscious controlling of the mind. It is just living according to what is in the heart which is easy.

Adam was innocent. He was without sin at first but to remain so required him to feed from the tree of life (Jesus) but he chose instead to feed from the tree of knowledge. Had he fed from the other tree he would have not sinned and remained in paradise and would have become perfect through feeding on Jesus (eating His flesh and blood) When we feed on Him we become like Him. So Adam had to make the choice whether to trust in his own understanding or to trust in Christ alone and sacrifice his natural appetite (for knowledge) Of course he failed and the desire for knowledge outside of what God desires to reveal to us and moving away from trust in Him is the source of sin still.

There is not a stage when man can never again sin. No we can always choose to sin, but if we do choose to sin when we are in a perfect state, then we will FALL from that state and not be in perfection any more. I believe that it is possible to be restored but according to Hebrews, it is not easy because we have put Christ to shame again. But as Jude says when we are in the state then He keeps us from falling.

We will always have temptation and the temptation will be more acute and for different things when in perfection like when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness He was tempted with natural desires which were not sinful in themselves like to eat and to avoid death. Satan really prowls in this state and leaves you alone much in the unperfected state because your own sinful desires will do his work for him.

We do see our sin more the closer we come to this state, and this part is definitely a process of conviction and we will become increasingly despairing with our inability to serve God as we want to serve Him and will eventually be led to total despair as many saints have known including George Fox in the early part of his Journal before he was delivered and came up through the flaming sword back into paradise and into the position that Adam was in his innocence with a pure heart given to him. Then there is a period of growth and learning to walk in the Spirit with this pure heart and to be tempted like Jesus to gain mastery over the body that is the natural desires and needs which are not sinful but if we do not gain mastery they could lead us into temptation. So in a sense there is a process but there must be definite steps on the way.

If you read about the ones who testify to entire sanctification you will see that they were never self satisfied, and said that it was entirely the work of God alone that kept them and if it was not for His grace they would be probably the worst of sinners especially as they had been brought down into the dust previous to their sanctification and saw exactly the state of man's heart even in the service to God and his total hypocrisy and lack of love for God. But they reach a stage where they depend entirely on His working in them to tell them what to do each day and giving them the strength to serve others without thought for themselves.

Philippians chapter three

The power of his resurrection
In having this body of my humiliation raised from death, and made like unto his glorious body. This seems to be the sole meaning of the apostle; for it is in virtue of Christ's resurrection that we are to be raised incorruptible and immortal.

And the fellowship of his sufferings
Christ died, not only as a victim for sin, but as a martyr to the truth. No creature can have fellowship with him in his vicarious sufferings; as a martyr to the truth, St. Paul wished to imitate him. Not only in the apostle, but in the primitive Christians generally, there seems to have been a strong desire after martyrdom.

Verse 11. The resurrection of the dead.
That is, the resurrection of those who, having died in the Lord, rise to glory and honour; and hence St. Paul uses a peculiar word which occurs no where else in the New Testament, to that resurrection which is of the dead. This glorious resurrection, and perhaps peculiarly glorious in the case of martyrs, is that to which St. Paul aspired. The word signifies the resurrection in general, both of the just and unjust; may signify that of the blessed only.

Verse 12. Not as though I had already attained
For I have not yet received the prize; I am not glorified, for I have not finished my course; and I have a conflict still to maintain, and the issue will prove whether I should be crowned. From the beginning of the 11th to the end of the 17th verse there is one continued allusion to the contests at the Olympic Games; exercises with which, and their laws, the Philippians were well acquainted. Philippians 3:11-17

either were already perfect
nor am I yet perfect; I am not yet crowned, in consequence of having suffered martyrdom. I am quite satisfied that the apostle here alludes to the Olympic Games, and the word is the proof; for is spoken of those who have completed their race, reached the goal, and are honoured with the prize. Thus it is used by Philo, Allegorical. Lib. iii. Page 101, edit. Mangey: "When is it, O soul, that thou shall appear to have the victory? Is it not when thou shall be perfected, (have completed thy course by death,) and be honoured with prizes and crowns?"

That signified martyrdom, we learn most expressly from Clemens Alexandra., Stomata, and lib. iii. Page 480, where he has these remarkable words: - "We call martyrdom or perfection, not because man receives it as the end, completion of life; but because it is the consummation of the work of charity."

Basil the Great, Hom. In Psalms 116:13: "I will receive the cup of salvation; that is, thirsting and earnestly desiring to come, by martyrdom, to the consummation."

So OEcumenius, on Acts 28: "All the years of Paul, from his calling to his martyrdom, were thirty and five."

And in Balsamon, Can. I. Ancyran., page 764: is, "To be crowned with the crown of martyrdom."

Eusebius, Hist. Eccles, lib. Vii. Cap. 13, uses the word to express to suffer martyrdom. I have been the more particular here, because some critics have denied that the word has any such signification. See Suicer, Rosenmuller, Macknight,

St. Paul, therefore, is not speaking here of any deficiency in his own grace, or spiritual state; he does not mean by not being yet perfect, that he had a body of sin and death cleaving to him, and was still polluted with indwelling sin, as some have most falsely and dangerously imagined; he speaks of his not having terminated his course by martyrdom, which he knew would sooner or later be the case. This he considered as the perfection, of his whole career, and was led to view every thing as imperfect or unfinished till this had taken place.

But I follow after
but I pursue; several are gone before me in this glorious way, and have obtained the crown of martyrdom; I am hurrying after them.

That I may apprehend
That I may receive those blessings to which I am called by Christ Jesus. There is still an allusion here to the stadium, and exercises there: the apostle considers Christ as the brabeus, or judge in the games, who proclaimed the victor, and distributed the prizes; and he represents himself as being introduced by this very brabeus, or judge, into the contest; and this brabeus brought him in with the design to crown him, if he contended faithfully. To complete this faithful contention is what he has in view; that he may apprehend, or lay hold on that for which he had been apprehended, or taken by the hand by Christ who had converted, strengthened, and endowed him with apostolic powers, that he might fight the good fight of faith, and lay hold on eternal life.

Verse 13. I count not myself to have apprehended
whatever gifts, graces, or honours I may have received from Jesus Christ, I consider every thing as incomplete till I have finished my course, got this crown, and have my body raised and fashioned after his glorious body.

 

[Hepzibah]

This one thing I do
This is the concern, as it is the sole business, of my life.

Forgetting those things which are behind
My conduct is not regulated nor influenced by that of others; I consider my calling, my Master, my work, and my end. If others think they have time to loiter or trifle, I have none: time is flying; eternity is at hand; and my all is at stake.

Reaching forth
The Greek word points out the strong exertions made in the race; every muscle and nerve is exerted, and he puts forth every particle of his strength in running. He was running for life, and running for his life.

Verse 14. I press toward the mark
I pursue along the line; this is a reference to the white line that marked the ground in the stadium, from the starting place to the goal, on which the runners were obliged to keep their eye fixed; for they who transgressed or went beyond this line did not run lawfully, and were not crowned, even though they got first to the goal. See the concluding observations on "1Co 9:27".
What is called mark or scope, here, is called the line, i.e. the marked line, Philippians 3:16. When it was said to Diogenes, the cynic, "Thou art now an old man, rest from thy labours;" to this he answered: "If I have run long in the race, will it become me to slacken my pace when come near the end; should I not rather stretch forward?" Diog. Laert., lib. Vi. Cap. 2. sec. 6.

For the prize of the high calling of God
The reward which God from above calls me, by Christ Jesus, to receive. The apostle still keeps in view his crown of martyrdom and his glorious resurrection.

Verse 15. As many as be perfect
As many as are thoroughly instructed in Divine things, who have cast off all dependence on the law and on every other system for salvation, and who discern God calling them from above by Christ Jesus; be thus minded; be intensely in earnest for eternal life, nor ever halt till the race is finished.

The word perfect, is taken here in the same sense in which it is taken 1 Corinthians 14:20:- Be not CHILDREN in understanding-but in understanding be ye MEN, be ye perfect-thoroughly instructed, deeply experienced. 1 Corinthians 2:6:- We speak wisdom among the perfect, among those who are fully instructed, adults in Christian knowledge. Ephesians 4:13:- Till we all come-unto a perfect man, 957; to the state of adults in Christianity. Hebrews 5:14:- But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age, the perfect-those who are thoroughly instructed and experienced in Divine things. Let us therefore, says the apostle, as many as be perfect-as have entered fully into the spirit and design of the Gospel, be thus minded, viz. Forget the things which are behind, and stretch forward along the mark for the prize.

If in any thing ye be otherwise minded
If ye have not yet entered into the full spirit and design of this Gospel, if any of you have yet remaining any doubts relative to Jewish ordinances, or their expediency in Christianity, God shall reveal even this unto you; for while you are sincere and upright, God will take care that ye shall have full instruction in these Divine things.

Verse 16. Whereto we have already attained
Let us not lose that part of the race which we have already run, let us walk by the same rule-let us keep the white line continually in view, let us mind the same thing, always considering the glorious prize which is held out by God through Christ Jesus to animate and encourage us."

If we had lived in Fox's time, Wesley's time, Finney’s time, Edwards time, or the time of the Welsh and Hebridean revivals you would have met people like this but you may not have recognised them. Even Jesus was not recognised for His holiness, because it is not what people expect. It is not someone who does not make mistakes for one thing (do not mistake this for sin however). We never reach a stage of knowing everything and we learn of God's ways as long as we live. But after sanctification it is a life in His will totally and a freedom to obey Him easily and be in His perfect will. And it is possible to fall and be restored to this state. But someone in this state can be known because they display the fruit of the Spirit and will have a deep understanding of the ways of holiness.

This last 50 or 60 years however, the teaching has been lost mainly and new meanings for perfection have come in and this is why we do not see sanctified people. We are in a time of great darkness and the enemy is enjoying misleading people with signs and wonders which are not from God.

We do not have to depend on our interpretation of the New Testament alone to see this teaching for it is throughout the Old in type and symbol. The story of the children of Israel for example when they came out of Egypt (Satan's kingdom) and were led by Moses into the desert where they wandered aimlessly around even though they could have completed their journey in a much shorter time. But the wandering led them to see their own hearts and what was in them and they knew failure and despair. But gradually they came to the Promised Land (entire sanctification) where God's promises are fulfilled. Most of them did not enter in however and fell by the wayside through lack of faith. Those who entered in came in through faith and once they were in they found new and terrible enemies which they had to defeat in order to claim the whole land. This does not speak of heaven as we will not have enemies there and it does not speak of salvation (as the term is understood) because the promises of God are not realised until this state. Besides the scriptures speaks that it is God's people who come out of Egypt. There are other pictures of the sanctified life for example Ezekiel's vision of the cherubim is the new creature that we become in this state.

 

[Johann]

Verse 12. Not as though I had already attained
For I have not yet received the prize; I am not glorified, for I have not finished my course; and I have a conflict still to maintain, and the issue will prove whether I should be crowned. From the beginning of the 11th to the end of the 17th verse there is one continued allusion to the contests at the Olympic Games; exercises with which, and their laws, the Philippians were well acquainted. Philippians 3:11-17

either were already perfect
nor am I yet perfect; I am not yet crowned, in consequence of having suffered martyrdom. I am quite satisfied that the apostle here alludes to the Olympic Games, and the word is the proof; for is spoken of those who have completed their race, reached the goal, and are honoured with the prize. Thus it is used by Philo, Allegorical. Lib. iii. Page 101, edit. Mangey: "When is it, O soul, that thou shall appear to have the victory? Is it not when thou shall be perfected, (have completed thy course by death,) and be honoured with prizes and crowns?"

So WHEN did Paul reached perfection according to scripture? I mean he was IN Christ Jesus as all born again are and yet still penned-"Not that I have ALREADY obtained [it] or ALREADY have been perfected/matured/completed/reaching a goal"

Transliteration: kateilēphenai
Morphology: V-RNA
Verb - Perfect Infinitive Active
Strong's no.: G2638 (καταλαμβάνω)
Meaning: (a) to seize tight hold of, arrest, catch, capture, appropriate, (b) to overtake, (c) to perceived, comprehended.

Transliteration: teteleiōmai
Morphology: V-RIM/P-1S
Verb - Perfect Indicative Middle or Passive - 1st Person Singular
Strong's no.: G5048 (τελειόω)
Meaning: (a) as a course, a race, or the like: to complete, finish (b) as of time or prediction: to accomplish, (c) to make perfect; pass: to be perfected.

Php_3:12

Section 12-16

Not ... already obtained [attained; received] -- The race toward Christlikeness begins with a sense of honesty and dissatisfaction.
The thought of “the crown” is probably to be supplied. See below, and also verse Php_3:14..

already perfect -- Paul has not yet arrived at his goal. The Greek verb used here, teleioo, can refer to being perfected, being completed, or reaching a goal.
The process to develop his life for the life of glory was incomplete, the aim is “we shall be like Him” (1Jn_3:2; cp. Rom_8:29); an aim, but implying that we can never completely be so here in this life.

I press on -- The Gr. word was used of a sprinter, and refers to aggressive, energetic action. The thought of the race, with its goal and crown, is before him. Cp. 1Co_9:24-27; Gal_2:2, Gal_5:7; 2Ti_2:5, 2Ti_4:7; Heb_12:1.
Paul pursued sanctification with all his might, straining every spiritual muscle to win the prize (1Co_9:24-27; 1Ti_6:12; Heb_12:1).

make it my own [apprehend; grasp] -- The Greek verb is that rendered “receive,” or “obtain,” like that used above, only in a stronger (compound) form. He thinks of the promised crown, as thought he not merely “receives” but “grasps” at it, with astonished joy.

Christ Jesus has made me [laid hold] -- “Lay hold” means “to make one’s own possession.” God chose for his saints to conform to the glorious image of His Son (Rom_8:29), and that is the very goal Paul pursued to attain.



Straining Toward the Goal
Php 3:12 Not Οὐχ that ὅτι already ἤδη I have obtained [it] ἔλαβον or ἢ already ἤδη have been perfected, τετελείωμαι, but δὲ I am pursuing, διώκω if εἰ also καὶ I may lay hold καταλάβω, of ἐφ’ that for which ᾧ also καὶ I was laid hold of κατελήμφθην by ὑπὸ Christ Χριστοῦ Jesus. Ἰησοῦ.
Php 3:13 Brothers, ἀδελφοί, I ἐγὼ {do} not οὐ* consider λογίζομαι myself ἐμαυτὸν to have taken hold [of it]. κατειληφέναι· But δέ, one thing ἓν indeed: μὲν Forgetting ἐπιλανθανόμενος the things τὰ behind ὀπίσω and δὲ reaching forward ἐπεκτεινόμενος, to the things τοῖς ahead, ἔμπροσθεν
Php 3:14 I press on διώκω toward κατὰ [the] goal σκοπὸν for εἰς the τὸ prize βραβεῖον of the τῆς upward ἄνω calling κλήσεως - τοῦ of God Θεοῦ in ἐν Christ Χριστῷ Jesus. Ἰησοῦ.
Php 3:15 Therefore οὖν as many as Ὅσοι [are] mature τέλειοι, vvv τοῦτο should be of this mind. φρονῶμεν· And καὶ if εἴ you are minded φρονεῖτε, [in] anything τι differently, ἑτέρως even καὶ this τοῦτο - ὁ God Θεὸς will reveal ἀποκαλύψει· to you. ὑμῖν
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, πλὴν to εἰς that which ὃ we have attained, ἐφθάσαμεν, [we are] to walk στοιχεῖν. by the τῷ rule, ⧼κανόνι, same. αὐτῷ the τὸ same αὐτὸ mind. φρονεῖν⧽.

 

[Hepzibah]

So WHEN did Paul reached perfection according to scripture?

Romans 7

 

[Johann]

Romans 7

Read reply #404

Paul's View on Perfection:
In Paul's letters, the concept of "perfection" (Greek: τελείωσις, teleiosis) is not about achieving moral flawlessness or sinlessness in this life, but rather about maturity and completeness in faith. Paul uses the term to describe the ongoing process of becoming more like Christ.
Philippians 3:12-14: Just before the verses we discussed, Paul writes, "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me" (Philippians 3:12, NIV). Here, Paul explicitly states that he has not yet reached perfection or complete maturity. Instead, he continues to "press on" toward the goal of spiritual maturity and the ultimate prize of eternal life with Christ.

1 Corinthians 13:9-12: In this passage, Paul contrasts our current partial knowledge with the future full knowledge we will have when we see God "face to face." This suggests that full "perfection" or completeness will be attained only in the eschaton, when believers are fully united with Christ.

2. Perfection as an Eschatological Reality:
Paul seems to understand perfection as something that will be fully realized in the future, at the time of Christ’s return. This is when believers will be completely transformed into the likeness of Christ (see Philippians 3:20-21; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53).
2 Timothy 4:7-8: Toward the end of his life, Paul writes, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day..." (NIV). This passage suggests that Paul saw the completion of his journey, and thus the attainment of perfection, as something that would be fully realized after his earthly life, when he received the "crown of righteousness."

Why the need to "press on" when we have already fully attained?

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NIV)
Verse: "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory."
Explanation: This passage emphasizes that believers receive the Holy Spirit upon believing in Christ. The Holy Spirit is described as a "seal" and a "deposit" (or "down payment") that guarantees our future inheritance in God's kingdom.

2. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (NIV)
Verse: "Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."
Explanation: Here, Paul reiterates that God gives believers the Holy Spirit as a seal and a deposit, affirming that the Spirit's presence is a guarantee of the future fulfillment of God's promises.

3. 2 Corinthians 5:5 (NIV)
Verse: "Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."
Explanation: This verse again highlights that the Holy Spirit is given as a "deposit" or "guarantee" of what is to come, reinforcing the idea that the Spirit's presence in believers is an assurance of their future inheritance in Christ.

4. Romans 8:9-11 (NIV)
Verse: "You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you."
Explanation: This passage underscores the essential role of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer, confirming that those who belong to Christ have the Spirit dwelling within them, which is the evidence of their salvation and future resurrection.
These scriptures collectively illustrate that the Holy Spirit is received upon belief in Christ and serves as a guarantee, or "down payment," of the believer's inheritance in the kingdom of God.

J.

 

[Hepzibah]

You are seeing through eyes of human reasoning otherwise known as the flesh, that will do anything to stay alive and not go to the cross, regarding when spiritual rebirth takes place. You are the same as the disciples before Pentecost, only knowing the law.

Paul warned of such as you who would lead many astray because of a show of knowledge, fleshy knowledge that is, not spiritual maturity. Most bible scholars are unsaved. May God have mercy.

 

[Johann]

You are seeing through eyes of human reasoning otherwise known as the flesh, that will do anything to stay alive and not go to the cross, regarding when spiritual rebirth takes place. You are the same as the disciples before Pentecost, only knowing the law.

Paul warned of such as you who would lead many astray because of a show of knowledge, fleshy knowledge that is, not spiritual maturity. Most bible scholars are unsaved. May God have mercy.

@Hepzibah

"As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another" (Proverbs 27:17). Yet, you question my rebirth, while being unwilling to bring your own teaching into the light to be tested by Scripture. 'Test all things; hold fast what is good' (1 Thessalonians 5:21), but you are not allowing your teachings to be dokimazo-ed (tested).

Instead of engaging with the Word of God, you prefer to pontificate and philosophize 'without sound instruction' (2 Timothy 4:3), avoiding the 'living and active Word' that is 'sharper than any double-edged sword' (Hebrews 4:12). This approach is not serving you well, for 'all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness' (2 Timothy 3:16), and yet you have not used Scripture to address any of the points I have made.

'God is not the author of confusion, but of peace' (1 Corinthians 14:33), and yet confusion seems to reign in this discussion. I urge you to 'be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth' (2 Timothy 2:15), so that our dialogue may be fruitful and rooted in the solid foundation of God's Word."--and not our fluctuating "experiences"

And correct you are-may God have mercy.
J.

 

[marks]

I don't believe this: Ephesians 2:8, Paul says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”

Here, "gift", being in the neuter gender, refers to the entirety of being saved by grace through faith, as these words are in both masculine and feminine genders.

I place "being saved" at "believing and being justified", while it seems to me you place "being saved" as happening when we are reborn into a life with out sin at some time later than when we first believed. Is that a fair statement?

Galatians 5:16 KJV
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:25 KJV
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Are these commands that we are given, but that are impossible to obey? That doesn't make sense to me. I see God as the ultimate truth, the One Who is True. I do not see Him disengenuous, telling me to do things He knows I cannot possibly do. That is, without having made it possible for me.

I am talking about doctrine here not praxis. Do you have any examples of additional doctrines?

I'm talking about their doctrines. I don't remember a whole lot of particulars. I rememeber Irenaeus promoting this extensive "new testament priesthood" with hierarchy and all, absolutely not from Scripture.

I read the early commentaries sufficiently to come to realize they were like todays, all over the map, and so I realized my best interest was to read, study, meditate upon, internalize, the Bible itself. I've looked at various commentaries at times, new and old, to see what they had to say, but the Bible itself teaches me about all these things.

My primary focus became to learn more of the Koine Greek language so I could better understand what is written in Scripture.

Your complaint is that we have incorporated post reformation teaching, and have come into error for it, but I say to you that I take my teaching from the Bible itself, and I'm finding that it is powerful in my life, in the power of God.

You may perceive similarity between things I say and things reformationists said, but not everything is the same, and the fact that something may seem similar or even the same does not, does not indicate that one is the source of the other.

This is true, but as I have mentioned, many who enter this blessing or His rest, remark on seals being opened and scripture becoming like a new book compared to previous understanding. I had three days when I was taught directly from God more more than I had previously learned from my own readings and theologians.

Yes, I understand about this. I believe I am being taught by God myself.

Just the same, any of us can say to any other of us, "When you are older you will understand". And of course I have no idea about what revelations are coming yet from God, and I have the idea that I'm going to spend the rest of my life learning more of the Bible, and of God Himself, well, for eternity! I am a solid believer that the Bible will never contradict itself, and this spiritual revelation is about coming to realize the meanings of the statements as they are given.

I think that people gloss over words they read but cannot compute, that don't make sense to them. Or they will read a word and impute to it a modern connotation, or will read this but think that, not being aware of that little mental shift.

Times when God just "takes over" the learning process are amazing! God pretty much put me through a personalized "Bible College" as for a couple of years, I had sudden interests in various topics, and the sudden wealth of material on said topics, things like the major doctrines, Church history, Translations and Manuscripts, like that.

There was a time when God put into my heart the desire for Ecclesiastes. I read it daily as I had time, maybe 3-5 times depending. When I was in the car I listened to the audio version, also when I was home doing dishes or whatever. For about 5 weeks or so this was my interest. So from 5-10 times each day I took in this book, maybe somewhere between 200 and 300 times total. I think He was rewiring part of my brain. I know what when I have an severe episode of major depression, it was passages from that book that got me through the darkest and hardest moments.

I'm sorry to go on so long! But I meant it, I can't think of anything more important to discuss, and I truly appreciate that we have the opportunity!

Indeed scripture contains everything needed for one to be saved. But then we need to be able to guide others. We are vastly in error if we teach new doctrines which we cannot help influencing us.

I think not only to be saved, but to live also. I believe in guiding others through showing them what the Bible teaches, and encouraging them with personal testimony, to vastly oversimplify.

I find that many errors are made by just looking at texts and not taking the overall teachings like for example, how the story of the children of Israel is a blueprint for our own walk, when some eventually reached the promised land and the battles therein till perfection. Most fell remember.

And on the other hand I find many errors are made as someone finds an OT passage that seems to tell a story matching to their thoughts, and then goes to the NT teaching passage, and alters it's meaning, not intentionally, but just the same, alters it's teaching so it matches their historical narrative.

Yes, absolutely, these historys give types for us to learn from. But there are so many different ways they can be spun.

Israel in the wilderness, when is Theosis? When they enter the promised land? But they were not sanctified. What of those who fell? Is crossing the red sea being justified? The narrative may indicate an impermanent rebirth, but what I've found in the Scripture is that rebirth is forever.

I one time did a study of Ruth. I found that nearly every part of it illustrated some New Testament teaching, but without any alteration from the straightforward sayings of the NT passages.

This is where I really come down to it. If we are ever thinking some certain thing, "I've read this here, I've read that there, so that means, this place here, though it says this thing, it must mean that thing." I don't think that is the right way to interpret the Bible. I've never found it to be so, even as I've also progressed in spiritual understandings.

Amen! But if that is so for everyone, there would be a consensus which there isn't.

There are reasons for that. Not all have the same faith. Not all will do the parts they know, that they can do. It's to those who have that more is given. Those who by reason of use are trained to discern good and evil.

Thanks for that. I did receive some loving care but from parachurch organizations, like one healing and deliverance ministry and once when I met 12 American pastors who were on a teaching trip, on a Scottish Island and they really were a blessing to me. Love heals.

Amen!! When I came to understand God's love for me, complete and forever, that was the real game changer.

The one thing, the most important thing that I can learn, and do, is to love as He loves.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Both process and event.

Would you expand on this? I understand your view that it is an event, in what way do you see sanctification as a process?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Amen. I think of justification as meaning exoneration. And if grace weren't grace we wouldn't have been admonished in scripture to not use it as a license or cloak for sin.

Justification is to "render righteous", and can refer to either a judicial decree as the judge pronounces "not guilty", and it can refer to a change of our state, from Guilty, to Righteous. This I believe happens when we are baptized into Christ and reborn, we are made righteous being united to Christ.

1 Peter 2:13-16 KJV
13) Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14) Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15) For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16) As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

The passage presents this as though you can make the choice to do that.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

@Hepzibah

"As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another" (Proverbs 27:17). Yet, you question my rebirth, while being unwilling to bring your own teaching into the light to be tested by Scripture. 'Test all things; hold fast what is good' (1 Thessalonians 5:21), but you are not allowing your teachings to be dokimazo-ed (tested).

Instead of engaging with the Word of God, you prefer to pontificate and philosophize 'without sound instruction' (2 Timothy 4:3), avoiding the 'living and active Word' that is 'sharper than any double-edged sword' (Hebrews 4:12). This approach is not serving you well, for 'all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness' (2 Timothy 3:16), and yet you have not used Scripture to address any of the points I have made.

'God is not the author of confusion, but of peace' (1 Corinthians 14:33), and yet confusion seems to reign in this discussion. I urge you to 'be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth' (2 Timothy 2:15), so that our dialogue may be fruitful and rooted in the solid foundation of God's Word."--and not our fluctuating "experiences"

And correct you are-may God have mercy.
J.

i noticed a good reminder that said
its about being perfected in faith .
Faith in WHO . IN JESUS THE CHRIST .
so allow me a reminder for us all to ponder on my dear friend .
How come The many have become focused on a love that implies if any person just did good and loved his neighbor
it dont matter what religion he was .
HOW IS THAT verison of love NOT GOING BACK UNDER THE LAW and looking to ourselves , having faith in us
TO SAVE US . We better watch out my friend .
Having faith in JESUS THE CHRIST , would entail we had FAITH IN ALL HIS TEACHINGS .
TRUST in what HE said , what He taught , what the apostels later taught inspired by the SPIRIT .
Trust and faith in GOD , not us , and not in men . IN CHRIST and not in men .
IN HIS WORDS and not in mens words that often twist and omit them words .
Is my faith in me or in CHRIST if i were to say It didnt matter what or who i believe in
it just mattered that i loved my neighbor as myself . THEN MY FAITH IS IN ME .
Because the same one that said LOVE YOUR NIEGHBOR as yourself , HE ALSO SAID HOW DIRE NECESSARY it was
to BELIEVE ON HIM . I see a bunk piece of junk love getting sold to this generation
that has brought them into only greater bondage .
WHO do we trust in , MATTERS
whose words we trust in , matters
WHO WE BELIEVE IN and BELIEVE does matter .
AS I AM SURE YOU AGREE my dear friend .
I have come to bring this people back into massive bible reading again for themselves .
HEY if we cant trust HIS WORDS , THEN WE DONT TRUST HIM .
As again i am pretty darn certain you agree with that .
If JESUS says something but we heed men who twist it , WHO DO YOU THINK we truly believed
and truly trusted . a hint IT WASNT JESUS , it was the men who duped us .

 

[marks]

(Having not experienced ES as far as I know, of course I'm not talking from experience but just trying to understand things.)

How long must it continue to be real?

I believe that some of us may walk in the Spirit for a mere 5 minutes before we fall back into distrust. For me it's a really clear experience. My brain is so bad off, I have two states, basically, either white-knuckling it keeping a grip on my thoughts and emotions to keep that freight train from running away (imperfectly, I might add), or to walk in the Spirit, and so transcend the flesh, the freight train has no power because I'm not there, I'm here in the Spirit (if I am, that is).

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

@Hepzibah

"As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another" (Proverbs 27:17). Yet, you question my rebirth, while being unwilling to bring your own teaching into the light to be tested by Scripture. 'Test all things; hold fast what is good' (1 Thessalonians 5:21), but you are not allowing your teachings to be dokimazo-ed (tested).

Instead of engaging with the Word of God, you prefer to pontificate and philosophize 'without sound instruction' (2 Timothy 4:3), avoiding the 'living and active Word' that is 'sharper than any double-edged sword' (Hebrews 4:12). This approach is not serving you well, for 'all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness' (2 Timothy 3:16), and yet you have not used Scripture to address any of the points I have made.

'God is not the author of confusion, but of peace' (1 Corinthians 14:33), and yet confusion seems to reign in this discussion. I urge you to 'be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth' (2 Timothy 2:15), so that our dialogue may be fruitful and rooted in the solid foundation of God's Word."--and not our fluctuating "experiences"

And correct you are-may God have mercy.
J.

Just a friendly reminder my friend , it dont matter what one might say about you my friend ,
you know i loves ya . NOW HIT THEM TRENCHES .
Folks are gonna do as they gonna do and say things about us as they will .
Believe you me . I been called some seriously wicked names by the lips and fingers
of many who even claim to be christain .
But , JESUS was called many names by those who even claimed to KNOW GOD too .
Marvel not if much of christendom and the world do not love those who wont budge from THE WORD and WORDS OF GOD .

 

[marks]

Scripture says that, when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part will cease ie will be in fullness, including knowledge. I take this to mean entire sanctification as it also says:

“When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” 1 Cor 11:12

So it is talking about this life when it says become a man. When we are truly walking in the Spirit we see God as He is, face to face.

I don't see ES in this passage, as Paul says both that he has put away childish things, but that he knows only in part still.

1 Corinthians 13:10 KJV
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Which indicates to me that Paul is looking for "that which is perfect" which is something other than him putting away childish things.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

You are seeing through eyes of human reasoning otherwise known as the flesh, that will do anything to stay alive and not go to the cross, regarding when spiritual rebirth takes place. You are the same as the disciples before Pentecost, only knowing the law.

Paul warned of such as you who would lead many astray because of a show of knowledge, fleshy knowledge that is, not spiritual maturity. Most bible scholars are unsaved. May God have mercy.

There are many who do not know .
Many that do not understand .
Men who have come in their own name have seduced many .
and many have loved to have it so .
Many have no idea what it means to be crucified in CHRIST
nor what HIS crucifixtion truly entailed .
Both paul and peter write about it .
But the church does not in large comprehened it .
For another jesus has been preached
another version of love has been taught
a jesus that accepts certain sins
a love that serves the flesh , serves self .
He took our sins upon that tree ,
so that we being made DEAD , made DEAD , made DEAD to sin
could live unto RIGHTEOUSNESS .
many dont seem to be dead to sins but rather still very much alive to them .
ITs as though their jesus came to die on said cross
so as they could FEEL FREE TO SIN rather than to be made FREE FROM SIN , DEAD TO SIN and ALIVE UNTO GOD .
many do not understand , because they have not known THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT .
They can sing the blood has set me free , made me free , only their free , AINT FREE FROM SIN or ITS POWER
but rather has come to make GOD a trangressor of his own law and words .
known as , MADE THEM FREE TO SIN . their liberty they use as an occasion to SERVE THE FLESH .
BIG MISTAKE . not looking good for many right now .

 

[amigo de christo]

You are seeing through eyes of human reasoning otherwise known as the flesh, that will do anything to stay alive and not go to the cross, regarding when spiritual rebirth takes place. You are the same as the disciples before Pentecost, only knowing the law.

Paul warned of such as you who would lead many astray because of a show of knowledge, fleshy knowledge that is, not spiritual maturity. Most bible scholars are unsaved. May God have mercy.

Many , and i do mean many , are very much alive to sin and DEAD to righteouness .
The dead are alive to sin and know not that they are dead while in sin .
To them their awakening has rather come to give excuse to sin rather than to free them from sin and HE who holds
that power .
Their cross has naught to do with the death of the old man who lived in sin ,
but rather a means to continue to live in sin .
Dead to righteouness and alive to sin
but that mindset is but death and leads only to the second death .
This is not looking good for much of christendom right now .
But let us not marvel , can not satan himself appear as an angel of light
and YET WE KNOW HE BE DARKNESS
so it is no great thing if the minsitirs of death can preach what they call life
and that the minstirs of satan can indeed preach another jesus , another gospel , another love .
WHICH will contain truths , but those truths will be twisted to imply a lie .

 

[amigo de christo]

my advice to every tom dick and harry
and every jane , sally and sherry , IS GET IN THE BIBLE NOW .

 

[amigo de christo]

GET IN THE BIBLE
LET GOD BE TRUE but every man a liar . So many are not gonna make it as they heed these men who so easily have decieved them .

 

[amigo de christo]

I don't see ES in this passage, as Paul says both that he has put away childish things, but that he knows only in part still.

1 Corinthians 13:10 KJV
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Which indicates to me that Paul is looking for "that which is perfect" which is something other than him putting away childish things.

Much love!

WHEN JESUS HAS COME we shall SEE HIM as HE IS
we shall know even as we were known . TILL THAT DAY BIBLE UP , cause far too many decievers are deceiving the many .