The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Hepzibah]

Could it be the unveiling of the new nature that is within us....? and that would seem to fit with Christ in us the hope of glory....? Tearing down/putting to death the old man so that the new man is revealed? Why our corn of wheat must die to produce a crop. The daystar arising in our hearts?

This idea would go against the whole principle of the OT and the cleansing of the temple before God could come down and dwell in it.OF

Brethren l am very sorry l am unable to get back to answer all of the questions that still remain. The shop l took my pc to is messing about and l still, since Tuesday do not have it back. It is too difficult to do it on my tablet due to my failing health.

 

[Hepzibah]

@marks

 

[Lizbeth]

This idea would go against the whole principle of the OT and the cleansing of the temple before God could come down and dwell in it.OF

Brethren l am very sorry l am unable to get back to answer all of the questions that still remain. The shop l took my pc to is messing about and l still, since Tuesday do not have it back. It is too difficult to do it on my tablet due to my failing health.

No rush sister. Praying that everything will resolve, especially those health issues. We can come back to this down the road, Lord willing. God bless and keep.

 

[marks]

@marks

Yes?

 

[Hepzibah]

Oops was meant to be in the previous post @marks.

Good news! New tech has fixed it and l lost nothing! Thank you Father!

 

[Hepzibah]

I think the Apostles told the believers the same things they wrote down for us, and that the Christians accepted their teachings, leading them into knowing God, and being transformed by God through that knowing.

My computer is all sorted, after a wait of ten days and many one hour heavy driving trips taking it back and forth, for further work. It was the system driver, then I found out, the mouse needing replaced. Even though it was extremely stressful, not driving much of late, due to my health, I feel that there has been some spiritual gain. I did become perilously close to giving up teaching entire sanctification. I survived though and more than ever, know that the Holy Spirit must provide that conviction necessary for anyone to accept this teaching as it is so contradicted by the main body of believers. When it is accepted, revival breaks out but we have not seen this for a long time.

Renewal of Pentecostal and charismatic teaching is not the same thing. Their baptism of the Spirit is not the same thing as it does not bear the same fruit. So I will attempt to discern whether there is any possibility of continuing this particular discussion.

@marks, the main reason why studying the early church writings is so vital, is that it is only through them that we can see what has been added to their teachings.

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Jude 1:3.

There are a number of things that have been added, not just by the RCC or Orthodoxy but also by Evangelicals, for example, gradual sanctification, sola scriptura, OSAS, bishops/theologians accepted who are not entirely sanctified, deterministic theology (Calvinism) and original sin (though all men fall).

Then there is the Filioque Clause at the first council, which entirely changes our understanding of the trinity which I will not discuss due tot he ban but can be easily found online.

sola scriptura is the biggest stumbling block I think with many Evangelicals priding themselves in their knowledge of scripture. But there are seals in place that stop the interpretation of those who are not walking rightly. Some are found in Rev. 5 ,6 & 8.

The same texts can take on an entirely different meaning when the spiritual aspect is understood.

If we are in the same Spirit as the Apostle Paul, then we would be seeing the church today as it was then, the main quality being the love believers have for each other. We are also unable to interpret properly if we are not in the same Spirit. I don't think anyone would dare declare this is so. I have found as someone severely traumatized in the my childhood, that every single church I have attended over 50 years has retraumatized me. @Lizbeth

Most of all is the spiritual fall of the western church (and Orthodoxy to some extent). Believers awake to the Spirit will know that it is due to the state of the church and the acceptance of new teachings from the pit, with lack of holiness in its leaders.

 

[Johann]

My computer is all sorted, after a wait of ten days and many one hour heavy driving trips taking it back and forth, for further work. It was the system driver, then I found out, the mouse needing replaced. Even though it was extremely stressful, not driving much of late, due to my health, I feel that there has been some spiritual gain. I did become perilously close to giving up teaching entire sanctification. I survived though and more than ever, know that the Holy Spirit must provide that conviction necessary for anyone to accept this teaching as it is so contradicted by the main body of believers. When it is accepted, revival breaks out but we have not seen this for a long time.

Renewal of Pentecostal and charismatic teaching is not the same thing. Their baptism of the Spirit is not the same thing as it does not bear the same fruit. So I will attempt to discern whether there is any possibility of continuing this particular discussion.

@marks, the main reason why studying the early church writings is so vital, is that it is only through them that we can see what has been added to their teachings.

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Jude 1:3.

There are a number of things that have been added, not just by the RCC or Orthodoxy but also by Evangelicals, for example, gradual sanctification, sola scriptura, OSAS, bishops/theologians accepted who are not entirely sanctified, deterministic theology (Calvinism) and original sin (though all men fall).

Then there is the Filioque Clause at the first council, which entirely changes our understanding of the trinity which I will not discuss due tot he ban but can be easily found online.

sola scriptura is the biggest stumbling block I think with many Evangelicals priding themselves in their knowledge of scripture. But there are seals in place that stop the interpretation of those who are not walking rightly. Some are found in Rev. 5 ,6 & 8.

The same texts can take on an entirely different meaning when the spiritual aspect is understood.

If we are in the same Spirit as the Apostle Paul, then we would be seeing the church today as it was then, the main quality being the love believers have for each other. We are also unable to interpret properly if we are not in the same Spirit. I don't think anyone would dare declare this is so. I have found as someone severely traumatized in the my childhood, that every single church I have attended over 50 years has retraumatized me. @Lizbeth

Most of all is the spiritual fall of the western church (and Orthodoxy to some extent). Believers awake to the Spirit will know that it is due to the state of the church and the acceptance of new teachings from the pit, with lack of holiness in its leaders.

Glad your computer is working but disagree re the church fathers as there were disagreements even there.

NT HOLINESS / SANCTIFICATION

The NT asserts that when sinners turn to Jesus in repentance and faith (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21), they are instantaneously justified and sanctified. This is their new position in Christ. His righteousness has been imputed to them (cf. Gen. 15:6; Romans 4). They are declared right and holy (a forensic act of God).

But the NT also urges believers on to holiness or sanctification. It is both a theological position in the finished work of Jesus Christ and a call to be Christlike in attitude and actions in daily life. As salvation is a free gift and a cost-everything lifestyle, so too, is sanctification.



Initial Response A Progressive Christlikeness
Acts 26:18
Romans 15:16
1 Corinthians 1:2-3; 6:11
2 Thessalonians 2:13
Hebrews 2:11; 10:10,14; 13:12
2 Peter 1:2 Romans 6:19
2 Cor. 7:1
Ephesians 1:4; 2:10
1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3-4,7; 5:2
1 Timothy 2:15
2 Timothy 2:21
1 Peter 1:15-16
Hebrews 12:14

All you have to do is look at the Grammar and morphology.

GREEK VERB TENSES USED FOR SALVATION

Salvation is not a product, but a daily relationship with God in Christ. It is not finished when one trusts Christ; it has only begun (a gate and then a road, cf. Matt. 7:13-14)! It is not a fire insurance policy, nor a ticket to heaven, but a life of growing Christlikeness (cf. Rom. 8:28-29; 2 Cor. 3:18; 7:1; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3,7; 5:23; 1 Pet. 1:15). We have a proverbial saying in America that says the longer a couple lives together, the more they begin to look alike. This is the goal of salvation!

SALVATION AS A COMPLETED ACTION (aorist)

• Acts 15:11

• Romans 8:24

• 2 Timothy 1:9

• Titus 3:5

• Romans 13:11 (combines the aorist with a future orientation)

SALVATION AS A STATE OF BEING (perfect)

• Ephesians 2:5,8

SALVATION AS A CONTINUING PROCESS (present)

• 1 Corinthians 1:18; 15:2

• 2 Corinthians 2:15

• 1 Peter 3:21

SALVATION AS A FUTURE CONSUMMATION (future in verb tense or context)

• Romans 5:9,10; 10:9,13

• 1 Corinthians 3:15; 5:5

• Philippians 1:28

• 1 Thessalonians 5:8-9

• Hebrews 1:14; 9:28

• 1 Peter 1:5

Therefore, salvation begins with an initial faith decision (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; Rom. 10:9-13), but this must issue in lifestyle faith (cf. Rom. 8:29; Gal. 2:19-20; Eph. 1:4; 2:10), which will one day be consummated in sight (cf. 1 John 3:2). This final state is called glorification (cf. Rom. 8:28-30). This can be illustrated as

1. initial salvation – justification (saved from the penalty of sin)

2. progressive salvation – sanctification (saved from the power of sin)

3. final salvation – glorification (saved from the presence of sin)------same with sanctification.

 

[Lizbeth]

My computer is all sorted, after a wait of ten days and many one hour heavy driving trips taking it back and forth, for further work. It was the system driver, then I found out, the mouse needing replaced. Even though it was extremely stressful, not driving much of late, due to my health, I feel that there has been some spiritual gain. I did become perilously close to giving up teaching entire sanctification. I survived though and more than ever, know that the Holy Spirit must provide that conviction necessary for anyone to accept this teaching as it is so contradicted by the main body of believers. When it is accepted, revival breaks out but we have not seen this for a long time.

Renewal of Pentecostal and charismatic teaching is not the same thing. Their baptism of the Spirit is not the same thing as it does not bear the same fruit. So I will attempt to discern whether there is any possibility of continuing this particular discussion.

@marks, the main reason why studying the early church writings is so vital, is that it is only through them that we can see what has been added to their teachings.

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Jude 1:3.

There are a number of things that have been added, not just by the RCC or Orthodoxy but also by Evangelicals, for example, gradual sanctification, sola scriptura, OSAS, bishops/theologians accepted who are not entirely sanctified, deterministic theology (Calvinism) and original sin (though all men fall).

Then there is the Filioque Clause at the first council, which entirely changes our understanding of the trinity which I will not discuss due tot he ban but can be easily found online.

sola scriptura is the biggest stumbling block I think with many Evangelicals priding themselves in their knowledge of scripture. But there are seals in place that stop the interpretation of those who are not walking rightly. Some are found in Rev. 5 ,6 & 8.

The same texts can take on an entirely different meaning when the spiritual aspect is understood.

If we are in the same Spirit as the Apostle Paul, then we would be seeing the church today as it was then, the main quality being the love believers have for each other. We are also unable to interpret properly if we are not in the same Spirit. I don't think anyone would dare declare this is so. I have found as someone severely traumatized in the my childhood, that every single church I have attended over 50 years has retraumatized me. @Lizbeth

Most of all is the spiritual fall of the western church (and Orthodoxy to some extent). Believers awake to the Spirit will know that it is due to the state of the church and the acceptance of new teachings from the pit, with lack of holiness in its leaders.

Glad you got that sorted, sister. :) Technology seems to me to be just as much of a nuisance as it is helpful.

I think the church has been embattled since its inception, even when great grace was still upon it. Paul was always having to battle and counter things that were creeping into it or trying to. Even Peter needed correcting at one point. Jesus said behold I send you out as sheep among wolves....and Paul said that after he departed wolves would come in not sparing the flock. It is just the nature of the flesh....as long as there is flesh there will be problems....and that is why we need to endeavour to not be in the flesh but in the spirit. It all serves to kind of test and try us etc.....and it has always really been about a remnant rather than the entire church per se. Wheat and tares. And the Lord is getting ready to judge the church and that is why He has led so many of us to come out it...to go to Him outside the camp so that we will not be caught up in the deception that is coming upon her as judgment.

One question I have...when people talk about entire sanctification or holiness....does that mean if one has been in that state but not remained in it they are considered entirely sanctified, or does it only apply to those who remain in that state? It seems from testimonies to be a difficult thing to remain like that at all times. I have wondered if there will be a kind of wholesale "remaining" in the end when Jesus returns and that is what "rapture" is all about. (But through much tribulation....I'm often praying for God to give grace and strength to His own at that time to meet the trials/temptations that are coming and not fall.)

 

[Hepzibah]

Glad you got that sorted, sister. :) Technology seems to me to be just as much of a nuisance as it is helpful.

Thanks sister I appreciate the support as it has been tough. Up till this week I have only been able to drive a couple of miles shopping but this week it has been four hours over the four days. The Lord enabled.

I think the church has been embattled since its inception, even when great grace was still upon it. Paul was always having to battle and counter things that were creeping into it or trying to. Even Peter needed correcting at one point. Jesus said behold I send you out as sheep among wolves....and Paul said that after he departed wolves would come in not sparing the flock. It is just the nature of the flesh....as long as there is flesh there will be problems....and that is why we need to endeavour to not be in the flesh but in the spirit. It all serves to kind of test and try us etc.....and it has always really been about a remnant rather than the entire church per se. Wheat and tares.

Yes I agree. The remnant is very small today. There has always been opposition to the path to holiness as you say, and what it entails - walking not in the flesh but in the Spirit. Even in Laodicia in Revelation, it seems the majority were in the flesh.

And the Lord is getting ready to judge the church and that is why He has led so many of us to come out it...to go to Him outside the camp so that we will not be caught up in the deception that is coming upon her as judgment.

I am outside of it too.

One question I have...when people talk about entire sanctification or holiness....does that mean if one has been in that state but not remained in it they are considered entirely sanctified, or does it only apply to those who remain in that state? It seems from testimonies to be a difficult thing to remain like that at all times. I have wondered if there will be a kind of wholesale "remaining" in the end when Jesus returns and that is what "rapture" is all about. (But through much tribulation....I'm often praying for God to give grace and strength to His own at that time to meet the trials/temptations that are coming and not fall.)

These things have been the cause of a great deal of prayer and study for me because the west taught justified -> entire sanctification, but the early church taught that it was three steps instead, and the second step seems to be sanctification or Illumination which is followed by ES or Theosis and this has been my own experience.

It seems that the training period involves going in between till mature and I don't know honestly what it should be called when out of it, but it seems to me that sanctification delivers one from deliberate sin, and ES from unintentional sin which Paul sought in Romans 7.

I still have some learning to do. It says in scripture that 'shall any be found of the faith when Christ returns' so I do not think there will be widespread revival.

The Rapture is to me what one goes through when baptized by the Holy Spirit and do not join in with conjecture of what it will be like at the end as I concentrate on this life and what is required of us .

 

[Hepzibah]

Glad your computer is working but disagree re the church fathers as there were disagreements even there.

Indeed but the only disagreement that counts is over the issue of what God expects of us in this life ie entire sanctification or the deliverance from the presence of sin, which is the answer to mans' problems. There were of course opposers to this question and is now endemic.

NT HOLINESS / SANCTIFICATION

The NT asserts that when sinners turn to Jesus in repentance and faith (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21), they are instantaneously justified and sanctified.

They are said to be glorified too - or sharing in His glory, which was demonstrated to us at the Transfiguration.

This is their new position in Christ. His righteousness has been imputed to them (cf. Gen. 15:6; Romans 4). They are declared right and holy (a forensic act of God).

But the NT also urges believers on to holiness or sanctification. It is both a theological position in the finished work of Jesus Christ and a call to be Christlike in attitude and actions in daily life. As salvation is a free gift and a cost-everything lifestyle, so too, is sanctification.



Initial Response A Progressive Christlikeness
Acts 26:18
Romans 15:16
1 Corinthians 1:2-3; 6:11
2 Thessalonians 2:13
Hebrews 2:11; 10:10,14; 13:12
2 Peter 1:2 Romans 6:19
2 Cor. 7:1
Ephesians 1:4; 2:10
1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3-4,7; 5:2
1 Timothy 2:15
2 Timothy 2:21
1 Peter 1:15-16
Hebrews 12:14

All you have to do is look at the Grammar and morphology.

GREEK VERB TENSES USED FOR SALVATION

Salvation is not a product, but a daily relationship with God in Christ. It is not finished when one trusts Christ; it has only begun (a gate and then a road, cf. Matt. 7:13-14)! It is not a fire insurance policy, nor a ticket to heaven, but a life of growing Christlikeness (cf. Rom. 8:28-29; 2 Cor. 3:18; 7:1; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3,7; 5:23; 1 Pet. 1:15). We have a proverbial saying in America that says the longer a couple lives together, the more they begin to look alike. This is the goal of salvation!

SALVATION AS A COMPLETED ACTION (aorist)

• Acts 15:11

• Romans 8:24

• 2 Timothy 1:9

• Titus 3:5

• Romans 13:11 (combines the aorist with a future orientation)

SALVATION AS A STATE OF BEING (perfect)

• Ephesians 2:5,8

SALVATION AS A CONTINUING PROCESS (present)

• 1 Corinthians 1:18; 15:2

• 2 Corinthians 2:15

• 1 Peter 3:21

SALVATION AS A FUTURE CONSUMMATION (future in verb tense or context)

• Romans 5:9,10; 10:9,13

• 1 Corinthians 3:15; 5:5

• Philippians 1:28

• 1 Thessalonians 5:8-9

• Hebrews 1:14; 9:28

• 1 Peter 1:5

Therefore, salvation begins with an initial faith decision (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; Rom. 10:9-13), but this must issue in lifestyle faith (cf. Rom. 8:29; Gal. 2:19-20; Eph. 1:4; 2:10), which will one day be consummated in sight (cf. 1 John 3:2). This final state is called glorification (cf. Rom. 8:28-30). This can be illustrated as

1. initial salvation – justification (saved from the penalty of sin)

2. progressive salvation – sanctification (saved from the power of sin)

3. final salvation – glorification (saved from the presence of sin)------same with sanctification.

Johann, as you follow the additions which came into the church, your teachings are at fault. Although you deny being a Calvinist, your teachings are very near to that heresy that came in with Augustine and I do not want to argue with you.

I do not agree with you over the aorist tense. You say the early church disagreed with each other but so do theologians since then. Theosis was the widespread teaching.

 

[Lizbeth]

Thanks sister I appreciate the support as it has been tough. Up till this week I have only been able to drive a couple of miles shopping but this week it has been four hours over the four days. The Lord enabled.


Yes I agree. The remnant is very small today. There has always been opposition to the path to holiness as you say, and what it entails - walking not in the flesh but in the Spirit. Even in Laodicia in Revelation, it seems the majority were in the flesh.


I am outside of it too.


These things have been the cause of a great deal of prayer and study for me because the west taught justified -> entire sanctification, but the early church taught that it was three steps instead, and the second step seems to be sanctification or Illumination which is followed by ES or Theosis and this has been my own experience.

It seems that the training period involves going in between till mature and I don't know honestly what it should be called when out of it, but it seems to me that sanctification delivers one from deliberate sin, and ES from unintentional sin which Paul sought in Romans 7.

I still have some learning to do. It says in scripture that 'shall any be found of the faith when Christ returns' so I do not think there will be widespread revival.

The Rapture is to me what one goes through when baptized by the Holy Spirit and do not join in with conjecture of what it will be like at the end as I concentrate on this life and what is required of us .

ok, thanks for your response. Amen...think we will all be learning until we leave this life, as we only know in part. One thing I wonder about is whether it is possible for sin to be literally removed from us in this life or whether we are being exhorted to deny it while we walk ABOVE it. I wonder also whether there are varying levels or degrees to walking in the Spirit as well. Like it is mentioned that Jesus was thought by some to be "beside himself" sometime. We can be so deep in spirit we are beside ourselves in a trance like state, or we can simply be yielded to Him in a matter or circumstance, and a range in between so to speak.

As an aside, I think there might be hope for the remnant church to be victorious and saving souls in the end though I don't know if it could be called revival or something else. One reason is that "as it was in the days of Noah so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man".....many "beasts" got on the ark with Noah and his family........I believe these were literal in Noah's day but represent to the church a harvest of lost souls. Reminds me of Peter's vision of the "unclean" animals and not calling unclean what God has called clean. Typically when there is much tribulation there is much fruit as well....so there might be hope. Other scriptures lead me to think it's possible as well.

 

[marks]

Renewal of Pentecostal and charismatic teaching is not the same thing. Their baptism of the Spirit is not the same thing as it does not bear the same fruit. So I will attempt to discern whether there is any possibility of continuing this particular discussion.

I agree with you in this, we are talking about something very different.

As I've said previously, within the confines that we cannot know for certain whether we are sinless or not, as we don't sufficiently know ourselves, even so, I believe that God grants this to some, though it seems not all.

For me, the question, the benefit towards discussing this, is to explore whether or not in fact we are able to walk in that way without being "tapped" by God for this particular benefit.

That is, can we enter this walk in the faith we already have?

I think the answer is yes, I think this is what the Bible - not those who came later, but the Apostles themselves.

@marks, the main reason why studying the early church writings is so vital, is that it is only through them that we can see what has been added to their teachings.

In my own reading of the early church commentators, it seems to me that they did in fact add much in many cases to what the Bible, the Apostles, taught.

So for me that is truly vital is to study and know the Bible itself, as this is what came to us from God Himself.

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Jude 1:3.

There are a number of things that have been added, not just by the RCC or Orthodoxy but also by Evangelicals, for example, gradual sanctification, sola scriptura, OSAS, bishops/theologians accepted who are not entirely sanctified, deterministic theology (Calvinism) and original sin (though all men fall).

In each of these areas I believe God has given us clear instruction in the Bible, without needing to resort to commentators new or old. This is a primary reason that I prefer speaking in Biblical terminology.

Please don't mistake the fruit of my personal Bible study to be some parroting of someone else's teaching. I have no issue with accepting or rejecting teaching based on what the Bible itself teaches. And if my understanding reminds you of something a particular church or teacher or demonimation teaches, that doesn't mean that's where I got it.

Earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Contend for the faith that has already been delivered, not that will continue to be delivered over the next 300 years by some of the commentators, but not all.

To me this is an admonition to go with what the Apostles wrote, contend for the faith once delivered.

Then there is the Filioque Clause at the first council, which entirely changes our understanding of the trinity which I will not discuss due tot he ban but can be easily found online.

We can leave this alone.

sola scriptura is the biggest stumbling block I think with many Evangelicals priding themselves in their knowledge of scripture. But there are seals in place that stop the interpretation of those who are not walking rightly. Some are found in Rev. 5 ,6 & 8.

All Scripture is understood according as the Holy Spirit gives understanding. True spiritual understanding will never contradict what was written. As I've experiences the teaching from the Holy Spirit, it means that we read the words, but we don't understand their significance until the Holy Spirit reveals it. Then we realize that in believing exactly what we are reading, we find a great truth. And we can know for certain that our understanding is true because it's exactly what the Bible says.

What I question is when someone claims to have a "spiritual understanding" of a passage, but it requires that not all the words mean what they mean, or what they say, and are to be taken "figuratively".

In some cases I believe that is valid, but that there will be something in the text to indicate this is so, and that there will be something in the text to indicate what the figure means.

"A great sign in the heavens, a red dragon . . ." We know this is a symbol from these words. "the dragon, that ancient serpent, the devil, Satan . . .", there is no question of what the symbol means.

There may be those who "pride themselves in their knowledge of Scripture". And there are those who find Scripture to be the signposts of the Eternal Way, the good way, and eagerly seek every good thing to be found. And having found good things, to share them with others.

The same texts can take on an entirely different meaning when the spiritual aspect is understood.

But there will never be a valid interpretation that brings in contradiction.

If we are in the same Spirit as the Apostle Paul, then we would be seeing the church today as it was then, the main quality being the love believers have for each other.

The same Spirit? To me it's more a matter of spiritual maturity. But I agree, the love we have for each other is the primary external sign that we are walking the way we ought.

I need to remember, though, that you think of us as "growing towards rebirth" while I think of us as "growing from rebirth" (I never want to misrepresent you so correct me anytime I'm wrong about your ideas.)

We are also unable to interpret properly if we are not in the same Spirit. I don't think anyone would dare declare this is so.

I'd simply say that the Holy Spirit MUST reveal the meaning of Scripture or we won't have it right.

I have found as someone severely traumatized in the my childhood, that every single church I have attended over 50 years has retraumatized me. @Lizbeth

That is horrible! I've been blessed in churches - in particular my recently deceased pastor - that have shown real Christian love, this man was the most loving man I've ever known. But the church we are in now, the love is very real, so much so as to give me a good look at how far I have yet to go!

Church should be a place for healing and love, and I'm so sad that you have not known that!!

Most of all is the spiritual fall of the western church (and Orthodoxy to some extent). Believers awake to the Spirit will know that it is due to the state of the church and the acceptance of new teachings from the pit, with lack of holiness in its leaders.

I agree that much harm has been done by those who have no business at the pulpit. One church my wife and I attended briefly, the pastor gave essentially the same message every week. It wasn't about sin, or about holiness, or about growing in the Spirit. It was, "things look hard, but God is faithful, and you'll be OK." It's a good message - if appropriate - but it's hardly all there is! There were some aspects to the church that revealed the spiritual immaturity.

To me, How do we walk in holiness? is about the best thing we can be discussing.

Much love!

 

[marks]

One thing I wonder about is whether it is possible for sin to be literally removed from us in this life or whether we are being exhorted to deny it while we walk ABOVE it.

In my cPTSD, compulsion and obsession has been hard-wired into my brain, and my compulsions and obsessions are not good ones. This has been in many ways of life of horror within my mind. What I want to express is that this isn't just a matter of some unhealthy interests, some particularly alluring temptation, these are mindsets that were written into my brain as I was growing up.

It never goes away. It never lets up. It's the way my brain is. According to the flesh.

Having known a time that God lifted all this away from me, and allowed me to live in peace and love and fruitfulness, then having known that time end, you can imagine how motivated I am to return to this state!

I always pause before saying, God said to me . . . but this is what I believe. That God explained to me about this. He can certainly remove all my difficulty, but He wants me to participate, because He wants me to share the victory. In some cases my participation seems small, just make the choice, and see as God's power makes it real. In other cases my participation seems more significant, as I have to keep making that choice, against all that is within and without screaming for me to give in.

He doesn't just want me to be free from these things, He wants me to understand how I'm being made free. He wants me to overcome by faith, in which is reward, rather then just be parked by Him in the right spot. As much as I think I'd love for that to happen, I realize that His argument is sound, and that in this He is not just arranging my temporal good, but is also seeking to add as much as possible to my eternal good.

Paul said something,

1 Corinthians 9:16-18 KJV
16) For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17) For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
18) What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

God "tapped" Paul to preach the Gospel. God didn't allow Paul to participate in the preaching of the Gospel, God committed the preaching of the Gospel to Paul, and Paul received no reward for preaching the Gospel. So what did Paul do? He made sure that he paid for everything, for himself, for those with him, even though he didn't have to. That was the point. The preaching was laid on him, "Woe is unto me if I preach not the Gospel!" But the money was his choice, and for choosing, and making that happen, this is where Paul received his reward.

So as much as I'd love for God to just "tap" me again, and lift off this burden of heavily corrupted flesh, I see His wisdom, and His love for me, in not doing that. I think He knew I needed to see it to believe it could be, but now having seen it, He wants me to attain it by faith, by my choosing, and then walking in it by faith, and then I have eternal reward.

One of the key elements in all this for me is my certainty of God's love for me, which is a lens I look through.

All that being said . . . I believe that for myself, God wants me to "walk above it", so that I can have true growth and understanding, something I can share with others, and that will bring me eternal rewards.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

In my cPTSD, compulsion and obsession has been hard-wired into my brain, and my compulsions and obsessions are not good ones. This has been in many ways of life of horror within my mind. What I want to express is that this isn't just a matter of some unhealthy interests, some particularly alluring temptation, these are mindsets that were written into my brain as I was growing up.

It never goes away. It never lets up. It's the way my brain is. According to the flesh.

Having known a time that God lifted all this away from me, and allowed me to live in peace and love and fruitfulness, then having known that time end, you can imagine how motivated I am to return to this state!

I always pause before saying, God said to me . . . but this is what I believe. That God explained to me about this. He can certainly remove all my difficulty, but He wants me to participate, because He wants me to share the victory. In some cases my participation seems small, just make the choice, and see as God's power makes it real. In other cases my participation seems more significant, as I have to keep making that choice, against all that is within and without screaming for me to give in.

He doesn't just want me to be free from these things, He wants me to understand how I'm being made free. He wants me to overcome by faith, in which is reward, rather then just be parked by Him in the right spot. As much as I think I'd love for that to happen, I realize that His argument is sound, and that in this He is not just arranging my temporal good, but is also seeking to add as much as possible to my eternal good.

Paul said something,

1 Corinthians 9:16-18 KJV
16) For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17) For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
18) What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

God "tapped" Paul to preach the Gospel. God didn't allow Paul to participate in the preaching of the Gospel, God committed the preaching of the Gospel to Paul, and Paul received no reward for preaching the Gospel. So what did Paul do? He made sure that he paid for everything, for himself, for those with him, even though he didn't have to. That was the point. The preaching was laid on him, "Woe is unto me if I preach not the Gospel!" But the money was his choice, and for choosing, and making that happen, this is where Paul received his reward.

So as much as I'd love for God to just "tap" me again, and lift off this burden of heavily corrupted flesh, I see His wisdom, and His love for me, in not doing that. I think He knew I needed to see it to believe it could be, but now having seen it, He wants me to attain it by faith, by my choosing, and then walking in it by faith, and then I have eternal reward.

One of the key elements in all this for me is my certainty of God's love for me, which is a lens I look through.

All that being said . . . I believe that for myself, God wants me to "walk above it", so that I can have true growth and understanding, something I can share with others, and that will bring me eternal rewards.

Much love!

Amen...I agree with this wisdom brother.....God could just take all our problems away in an instant and He gives us tastes of this, but it is like the Israelites when God said they would conquer the land little by little....lest it be overrun by wild beasts of fallen human nature, pride, self righteousness etc.....it could spoil us. The battle is part of the cross we carry to crucify and put down that old inward nature as well as it is necessary to battle in order to strengthen us.....like the proverbial butterfly has to struggle out of its cocoon because without the struggle squeezing the body fluids into its wings it would emerge unable to fly. The Lord is so wise....He knows what we are fighting and what we need much better than we know.

 

[Lizbeth]

Glad your computer is working but disagree re the church fathers as there were disagreements even there.

NT HOLINESS / SANCTIFICATION

The NT asserts that when sinners turn to Jesus in repentance and faith (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21), they are instantaneously justified and sanctified. This is their new position in Christ. His righteousness has been imputed to them (cf. Gen. 15:6; Romans 4). They are declared right and holy (a forensic act of God).

But the NT also urges believers on to holiness or sanctification. It is both a theological position in the finished work of Jesus Christ and a call to be Christlike in attitude and actions in daily life. As salvation is a free gift and a cost-everything lifestyle, so too, is sanctification.



Initial Response A Progressive Christlikeness
Acts 26:18
Romans 15:16
1 Corinthians 1:2-3; 6:11
2 Thessalonians 2:13
Hebrews 2:11; 10:10,14; 13:12
2 Peter 1:2 Romans 6:19
2 Cor. 7:1
Ephesians 1:4; 2:10
1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3-4,7; 5:2
1 Timothy 2:15
2 Timothy 2:21
1 Peter 1:15-16
Hebrews 12:14

All you have to do is look at the Grammar and morphology.

GREEK VERB TENSES USED FOR SALVATION

Salvation is not a product, but a daily relationship with God in Christ. It is not finished when one trusts Christ; it has only begun (a gate and then a road, cf. Matt. 7:13-14)! It is not a fire insurance policy, nor a ticket to heaven, but a life of growing Christlikeness (cf. Rom. 8:28-29; 2 Cor. 3:18; 7:1; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3,7; 5:23; 1 Pet. 1:15). We have a proverbial saying in America that says the longer a couple lives together, the more they begin to look alike. This is the goal of salvation!

SALVATION AS A COMPLETED ACTION (aorist)

• Acts 15:11

• Romans 8:24

• 2 Timothy 1:9

• Titus 3:5

• Romans 13:11 (combines the aorist with a future orientation)

SALVATION AS A STATE OF BEING (perfect)

• Ephesians 2:5,8

SALVATION AS A CONTINUING PROCESS (present)

• 1 Corinthians 1:18; 15:2

• 2 Corinthians 2:15

• 1 Peter 3:21

SALVATION AS A FUTURE CONSUMMATION (future in verb tense or context)

• Romans 5:9,10; 10:9,13

• 1 Corinthians 3:15; 5:5

• Philippians 1:28

• 1 Thessalonians 5:8-9

• Hebrews 1:14; 9:28

• 1 Peter 1:5

Therefore, salvation begins with an initial faith decision (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; Rom. 10:9-13), but this must issue in lifestyle faith (cf. Rom. 8:29; Gal. 2:19-20; Eph. 1:4; 2:10), which will one day be consummated in sight (cf. 1 John 3:2). This final state is called glorification (cf. Rom. 8:28-30). This can be illustrated as

1. initial salvation – justification (saved from the penalty of sin)

2. progressive salvation – sanctification (saved from the power of sin)

3. final salvation – glorification (saved from the presence of sin)------same with sanctification.

Such a good point brother, if even the early church leaders couldn't all agree on this. Just like our sister Hepzibah and Episkopos have testified of a walk in the Spirit but they each have areas where they understand this differently. It signals to me that we haven't gotten to the bottom of this yet. And the fact we only know in part as well.

In any case we each are responsible to seek and follow/obey the Lord and His leading for us individually and trust Him to be leading us to where He wants us to be and His word is a light unto our path. If we become aware of areas where we fall short etc, we need to seek Him for whatever it is we are lacking, whatever that means for us and however He wants to answer.

Nice new avatar, by the way, it is lovely. :) I have no idea how to go about getting one.

 

[marks]

Amen...I agree with this wisdom brother.....God could just take all our problems away in an instant and He gives us tastes of this, but it is like the Israelites when God said they would conquer the land little by little....lest it be overrun by wild beasts of fallen human nature, pride, self righteousness etc.....it could spoil us. The battle is part of the cross we carry to crucify and put down that old inward nature as well as it is necessary to battle in order to strengthen us.....like the proverbial butterfly has to struggle out of its cocoon because without the struggle squeezing the body fluids into its wings it would emerge unable to fly. The Lord is so wise....He knows what we are fighting and what we need much better than we know.

That's a good analogy about the butterfly struggling to get free so it's wings will work right! Yep, that really seems to fit!

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Such a good point brother, if even the early church leaders couldn't all agree on this. Just like our sister Hepzibah and Episkopos have testified of a walk in the Spirit but they each have areas where they understand this differently. It signals to me that we haven't gotten to the bottom of this yet. And the fact we only know in part as well.

In any case we each are responsible to seek and follow/obey the Lord and His leading for us individually and trust Him to be leading us to where He wants us to be and His word is a light unto our path. If we become aware of areas where we fall short etc, we need to seek Him for whatever it is we are lacking, whatever that means for us and however He wants to answer.

Nice new avatar, by the way, it is lovely. :) I have no idea how to go about getting one.

Go to Printerest-login, and choose a pic, download to your computer/laptop and the rest is history.

The church fathers were in disagreements about a lot of things sister, theosis and sanctification-

You should know the doctrine of sanctification from the Scriptures=correct?

Definition and Nature of Sanctification
Sanctification is the process of being set apart for God’s purposes and being made holy. It involves both a definitive aspect (a one-time event) and a progressive aspect (an ongoing process).

2. Scriptural Basis

John 17:17: “Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.”

1 Thessalonians 4:3: “For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality.”

Hebrews 10:14: “For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.”

1 Corinthians 6:11: “And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

3. Aspects of Sanctification

Positional Sanctification: This occurs at the moment of salvation when believers are set apart as holy.

1 Corinthians 1:2: “To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints…”

Progressive Sanctification: This is the ongoing process of becoming more like Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:18: “And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another.”

Ultimate Sanctification: This will be completed when believers are glorified in heaven.

1 Thessalonians 5:23: “Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

4. Means of Sanctification

The Word of God: Believers are sanctified through the truth of God’s Word.
John 17:17: “Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.”

The Holy Spirit: The Spirit works in believers to produce holiness.

Romans 15:16: “…to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.”

Faith in Christ: Union with Christ is the foundation of sanctification.
Galatians 2:20: “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.”

5. Practical Outworking
Moral Purity: Believers are called to live holy lives.

1 Peter 1:15-16: “But as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’”
Spiritual Growth: Sanctification involves growing in grace and knowledge.
2 Peter 3:18: “But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

J.

 

[Johann]

Go to Printerest-login, and choose a pic, download to your computer/laptop and the rest is history.

The church fathers were in disagreements about a lot of things sister, theosis and sanctification-

You should know the doctrine of sanctification from the Scriptures=correct?

Definition and Nature of Sanctification
Sanctification is the process of being set apart for God’s purposes and being made holy. It involves both a definitive aspect (a one-time event) and a progressive aspect (an ongoing process).

2. Scriptural Basis

John 17:17: “Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.”

1 Thessalonians 4:3: “For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality.”

Hebrews 10:14: “For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.”

1 Corinthians 6:11: “And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

3. Aspects of Sanctification

Positional Sanctification: This occurs at the moment of salvation when believers are set apart as holy.

1 Corinthians 1:2: “To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints…”

Progressive Sanctification: This is the ongoing process of becoming more like Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:18: “And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another.”

Ultimate Sanctification: This will be completed when believers are glorified in heaven.

1 Thessalonians 5:23: “Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

4. Means of Sanctification

The Word of God: Believers are sanctified through the truth of God’s Word.
John 17:17: “Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.”

The Holy Spirit: The Spirit works in believers to produce holiness.

Romans 15:16: “…to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.”

Faith in Christ: Union with Christ is the foundation of sanctification.
Galatians 2:20: “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.”

5. Practical Outworking
Moral Purity: Believers are called to live holy lives.

1 Peter 1:15-16: “But as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’”
Spiritual Growth: Sanctification involves growing in grace and knowledge.
2 Peter 3:18: “But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

J.

Justification
Justification is the act whereby God declares a person righteous.
Justification happens at the moment one trusts Christ as Savior.
Justification is an event.
Justification happens once and only once.
Justification delivers from the guilt and penalty of sin.
Justification cannot be repeated.
Justification is the work and miracle of a moment.
Justification gives you the merit of Christ.
Sanctification
Sanctification is the act whereby God works out Christ’s righteousness in a believer’s life.
Sanctification happens moment-by-moment as the believer surrenders one’s life to the Lord.
Sanctification is a process.
Sanctification is gradual and continuous.
Sanctification delivers from the control and the power of sin.
Sanctification must be repeated as an ongoing process.
Sanctification is the work and miracle of a lifetime.
Sanctification gives you the character of Christ.
Now, Paul had just written in Romans 5:20, “But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.” In light of this, he next asked, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?” (6:1). God, in His super-abounding grace through Christ, redeems from sin, justifies, and gives the gift of righteousness to those who believe.

Therefore, Paul asks, “What shall we say then?” about this super-abounding grace. Perhaps believers should not worry about sin in their lives, and we could continue in sin because this would only result in the manifestation of God’s abounding grace over sin and His greater glory. Would not God’s abounding grace shine all the brighter if we kept on sinning? Since we’re righteous forever in God’s sight, can’t we just sin and live however we want? This is the question Romans 6-8 is meant to answer.

Paul’s emotional answer to this kind of thinking is clear: “God forbid,” or “By no means!” “May it never be!” “Perish the thought!” Justified believers in Christ should never continue in sin that grace may abound. Paul’s teaching is how God’s superabounding grace not only justifies us, it sanctifies us, or sets us apart from sin. His grace doesn’t free us to sin, it frees us from sin and gives us power over it.

The basis of Paul’s answer is in the form of a rhetorical question: “How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” By posing the rhetorical question, Paul expected the reader to see the answer in the question. Rhetorical questions are not asked in expectation of answers; rather, they make statements.

 

[marks]

The basis of Paul’s answer is in the form of a rhetorical question: “How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” By posing the rhetorical question, Paul expected the reader to see the answer in the question. Rhetorical questions are not asked in expectation of answers; rather, they make statements.

Yes, he's saying, If you are different now, how can you just go on being the same? The point is, we are different. "Reckon yourself dead to sin and alive indeed to God", he tells us this for the very reason that our tendency is to not realize or recognize or trust that it's true that we have in fact been changed, that we have in fact become dead to sin, that we are in fact alive unto God. And on the heels of this comes the admonition to not sin any more.

So the implication is clear to me, that having become truly dead to sin, we can still continue in it. So we're told to get it into our heads that we are dead to sin and alive to God, so that Jesus is not our Christ alone, but our Lord as well. Being alive to God in Jesus Christ our Lord, He is everything to us,

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 KJV
30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

And this being so, what remains but that we walk in it? In Jesus? O brother how I need to hear this continually!!

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

ok, thanks for your response. Amen...think we will all be learning until we leave this life, as we only know in part.

Scripture says that, when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part will cease ie will be in fullness, including knowledge. I take this to mean entire sanctification as it also says:

“When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” 1 Cor 11:12

So it is talking about this life when it says become a man. When we are truly walking in the Spirit we see God as He is, face to face.

Not being in the Spirit however, we make errors in knowledge as we are not hearing God speak to us to a great extent who will lead us into all truth when He comes in the baptism.

Lizbeth - One thing I wonder about is whether it is possible for sin to be literally removed from us in this life or whether we are being exhorted to deny it while we walk ABOVE it. I wonder also whether there are varying levels or degrees to walking in the Spirit as well. Like it is mentioned that Jesus was thought by some to be "beside himself" sometime. We can be so deep in spirit we are beside ourselves in a trance like state, or we can simply be yielded to Him in a matter or circumstance, and a range in between so to speak.

I think there are degrees only in that we each have a different part to play in the body. To be holy is 100% as you cannot have dirty and clean water coming forth from the same tap/faucet. In the OT, vessels for His use were set aside, then cleansed. We still have to learn things like the means of spiritual warfare in the walking, or finding the words to guide others as spiritual matters do not easily convert to words, but the knowledge of God is complete

As an aside, I think there might be hope for the remnant church to be victorious and saving souls in the end though I don't know if it could be called revival or something else. One reason is that "as it was in the days of Noah so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man".....many "beasts" got on the ark with Noah and his family........I believe these were literal in Noah's day but represent to the church a harvest of lost souls. Reminds me of Peter's vision of the "unclean" animals and not calling unclean what God has called clean. Typically when there is much tribulation there is much fruit as well....so there might be hope. Other scriptures lead me to think it's possible as well.

There are also many scriptures that say there will be a great falling away and deception. Normally when there is tribulation the church has grown but the end times are different I think, when Satan has been given more freedom.