The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Johann]

I have just got up to set up my pc where l have files of writings l have done on the subject but it has crashed and is asking for a disc to reinstall and l haven't a clue where it is. It has never happened before so l only have my tablet which is slow.

No problem-my computer is outdated and running on 1 piston and VERY slow. My desire is to be conformed more and more into the Imagode of Christ Jesus in the sphere of the Holy Spirit.

Rom_8:29 For those whom He foreknew [and loved and chose beforehand], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son [and ultimately share in His complete sanctification], so that He would be the firstborn [the most beloved and honored] among many believers.

Rom_12:2 And do not be conformed to this world [any longer with its superficial values and customs], but be transformed and progressively changed [as you mature spiritually] by the renewing of your mind [focusing on godly values and ethical attitudes], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His plan and purpose for you].

Php_3:10 And this, so that I may know Him [experientially, becoming more thoroughly acquainted with Him, understanding the remarkable wonders of His Person more completely] and [in that same way experience] the power of His resurrection [which overflows and is active in believers], and [that I may share] the fellowship of His sufferings, by being continually conformed [inwardly into His likeness even] to His death [dying as He did];

1Pe_1:14 [Live] as obedient children [of God]; do not be conformed to the evil desires which governed you in your ignorance [before you knew the requirements and transforming power of the good news regarding salvation].

Romans 8:29 (ESV):
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

This verse highlights the purpose and goal of God's predestining work, which is to shape believers into the likeness of Jesus Christ. The concept of being conformed to Christ's image involves becoming more like Him in character, holiness, and righteousness, reflecting His nature in our lives.

Here I used the AMP to show you the outworking of our sanctification till we see our Lord pros to pros.
J.

 

[marks]

Oh l get the 4 x. It is the times l have been in this blessing . One loses it till maturity comes. It is no good trying to work that one out before one has even got to ES.

Meaning then 3 times you "went out" of it, doesn't that mean you stopped being a new creation? No longer born again? Or did you mean something different?

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Meaning then 3 times you "went out" of it, doesn't that mean you stopped being a new creation? No longer born again? Or did you mean something different?

Much love!

It sounds like that.

The early Church Fathers wrote extensively on sanctification, emphasizing the transformative process by which believers become holy through the work of the Holy Spirit. Their writings often reflect a deep commitment to personal holiness, ethical living, and a profound relationship with God. Here are some key insights from a few prominent early Church Fathers on sanctification:

**1. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130-202 AD):

Against Heresies: Irenaeus emphasized the transformative power of the Holy Spirit in the believer’s life. He wrote about how the Holy Spirit renews and sanctifies believers, leading them to live in accordance with God’s will.
Quote: “For it is necessary, that being first made into what He is, we should be reformed to what He is. We become as sons of God, and His image having been assumed, be made like unto Him.” (Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 8)
**2. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD):

Stromata: Clement viewed sanctification as a process of spiritual maturation and growth in virtue. He saw the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom as integral to becoming more like Christ.
Quote: “And the Word of God is the educator of the whole soul. Just as the instructor who disciplines us in good conduct and knowledge makes us fit for salvation.” (Stromata, Book 7, Chapter 3)
**3. Origen (c. 185-254 AD):

On First Principles: Origen spoke of sanctification as an ongoing process involving the mind, heart, and soul. He believed that through participation in the divine nature, Christians grow in holiness and are transformed into the likeness of Christ.
Quote: “It is through participation in the divine nature that man becomes holy and spiritual, and like unto God.” (On First Principles, Book 3, Chapter 6)
**4. Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296-373 AD):

On the Incarnation: Athanasius taught that sanctification is possible because of Christ's incarnation. Through Jesus, humans can be united with God and transformed into His likeness.
Quote: “For He was made man that we might be made God.” (On the Incarnation, Chapter 54)
**5. Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335-395 AD):

The Life of Moses: Gregory described sanctification as a continuous ascent towards God, using the metaphor of Moses’ journey up Mount Sinai to illustrate the believer’s progressive transformation.
Quote: “This is truly the vision of God: never to be satisfied in the desire to see Him. But always by looking at what he can see, he always yearns to see more.” (The Life of Moses, Book 2)
**6. John Chrysostom (c. 349-407 AD):

Homilies on the Gospel of John: Chrysostom emphasized practical holiness, urging believers to live out their faith through righteous deeds, love, and purity.
Quote: “For this is the aim of a Christian: that his life may speak to others; that his behavior may be such as to bring others to virtue and the fear of God.” (Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homily 46)
**7. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD):

Confessions: Augustine wrote about the inward transformation that sanctification involves. He emphasized the grace of God as essential in the process of becoming holy.
Quote: “You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you.” (Confessions, Book 1, Chapter 1)
On Nature and Grace: Augustine elaborated on the role of grace in sanctification, asserting that human effort must be complemented by divine assistance.
Conclusion:

The early Church Fathers viewed sanctification as an essential aspect of Christian life, involving a synergistic process where human effort and divine grace work together to transform believers into the likeness of Christ. Their writings emphasize the importance of holiness, virtue, and continual growth in the knowledge and love of God. These teachings continue to influence Christian thought on sanctification today.

 

[marks]

Mark you say yourself you do not see it! If you are ahungering then God will reveal it!

Again, you really don't know me, or how "hungry" I am, or any of this. We have very different viewpoints, and I believe that mine is what the Scripture says, and yours is something different. I'm showing you my view directly from the Bible. You are asserting that I don't understand the Bible because I don't see your view, and I don't understand because I'm not hungry enough for holiness.

But you know what? You are right. I'm not so much hungry for holiness, that's not my primary goal. It's only a means to get what I actually want, what is most meaningful to me. What I most desire is intimacy with my Father, and that is found in Christ, however, a clean conscience is one less impediment.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Again, you really don't know me, or how "hungry" I am, or any of this. We have very different viewpoints, and I believe that mine is what the Scripture says, and yours is something different. I'm showing you my view directly from the Bible. You are asserting that I don't understand the Bible because I don't see your view, and I don't understand because I'm not hungry enough for holiness.

But you know what? You are right. I'm not so much hungry for holiness, that's not my primary goal. It's only a means to get what I actually want, what is most meaningful to me. What I most desire is intimacy with my Father, and that is found in Christ, however, a clean conscience is one less impediment.

Much love!

Here is my desire-

Php_3:10 And this, so that I may know Him [experientially, becoming more thoroughly acquainted with Him, understanding the remarkable wonders of His Person more completely] and [in that same way experience] the power of His resurrection [which overflows and is active in believers], and [that I may share] the fellowship of His sufferings, by being continually conformed [inwardly into His likeness even] to His death [dying as He did];

Rom_12:2 And do not be conformed to this world [any longer with its superficial values and customs], but be transformed and progressively changed [as you mature spiritually] by the renewing of your mind [focusing on godly values and ethical attitudes], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His plan and purpose for you].

My apologies using the AMP
J.

 

[marks]

Here is my desire-

Php_3:10 And this, so that I may know Him [experientially, becoming more thoroughly acquainted with Him, understanding the remarkable wonders of His Person more completely] and [in that same way experience] the power of His resurrection [which overflows and is active in believers], and [that I may share] the fellowship of His sufferings, by being continually conformed [inwardly into His likeness even] to His death [dying as He did];

Rom_12:2 And do not be conformed to this world [any longer with its superficial values and customs], but be transformed and progressively changed [as you mature spiritually] by the renewing of your mind [focusing on godly values and ethical attitudes], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His plan and purpose for you].

My apologies using the AMP
J.

Amen!!

 

[Johann]

Oh l get the 4 x. It is the times l have been in this blessing . One loses it till maturity comes. It is no good trying to work that one out before one has even got to ES.

The Concept of Losing Blessing:

The statement "One loses it till maturity comes" suggests that blessings, presumably spiritual blessings, can be lost and regained based on one's maturity. While spiritual growth and maturity are important in Christian life, the idea that one repeatedly loses and regains blessings may need more precise explanation. This could be understood as fluctuating spiritual experiences, but it should be articulated more clearly.
**3. Eternal Salvation Misunderstanding:

The phrase "It is no good trying to work that one out before one has even got to Eternal Salvation" implies that understanding certain aspects of faith is irrelevant or impossible before achieving eternal salvation. However, traditional Christian doctrine teaches that eternal salvation is assured through faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9) and that spiritual growth (sanctification) occurs throughout the believer's life.
**4. The Process of Sanctification:

The statement does not accurately reflect the continuous and ongoing nature of sanctification. Sanctification is a process that begins at conversion and continues throughout the believer's life (Philippians 1:6, 1 Thessalonians 4:3). It is not something that can be lost and then regained but rather a progressive transformation into Christ-likeness.
**5. Eternal Security:

Traditional Christian teachings on eternal security (or perseverance of the saints) assert that once a person is truly saved, their salvation is secure (John 10:28-29, Romans 8:38-39). The idea that one has to reach a certain level of maturity to "get to Eternal Salvation" could be misleading and contradict the assurance of salvation by grace through faith.

Revised Statement:
A clearer and theologically sound version might be:
"Ah, I understand the importance of experiencing blessings throughout my spiritual journey. As I mature in my faith, I grow in my understanding and experience of these blessings. It's crucial to remember that while sanctification is an ongoing process, my eternal salvation is secure through faith in Jesus Christ. Spiritual growth and maturity help me to fully appreciate and live out the blessings of my salvation."

Is this what you are trying to say?

 

[Hepzibah]

Meaning then 3 times you "went out" of it, doesn't that mean you stopped being a new creation? No longer born again? Or did you mean something different?

Much love!

Mark l have to admit that l am not entirely sure how l can explain it atm. The assurance goes missing at times.

 

[Johann]

Amen!!

I think it is Imperative now to dokimazo the spirits-especially online.
Shalom
J.

 

[Johann]

Mark l have to admit that l am not entirely sure how l can explain it atm. The assurance goes missing at times.

Not to push you, did you mean you stopped being a new creation? No longer born again? Or are you not sure re your salvation?

 

[Hepzibah]

Sorry to tired to mess around on this old tablet. I can't believe my puter crashed. Oh woe is me

 

[Hepzibah]

Not to push you, did you mean you stopped being a new creation? No longer born again? Or are you not sure re your salvation?

I am sure of my salvation. If l die tonight the Lord knows my heart.

 

[Johann]

I am sure of my salvation. If l die tonight the Lord knows my heart.

Give me the link on the church fathers you read @Hepzibah

Here is why I don't want to read their writings on "deification"

The early Church Fathers wrote extensively on the concept of deification, also known as theosis, which describes the process by which believers become partakers of the divine nature through union with Christ. Here are some key insights from several prominent early Church Fathers on deification:

**1. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130-202 AD):

Against Heresies: Irenaeus spoke about deification as the process by which humans, through Christ, become like God. He emphasized that through the incarnation, Jesus became what we are so that we might become what He is.
Quote: "For He became man that we might become God." (Against Heresies, Book 5, Preface)
**2. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD):

Stromata: Clement described deification as the end goal of the Christian life, where believers, through the grace of God, are elevated to share in the divine life.
Quote: "The Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God." (Stromata, Book 5, Chapter 11)
**3. Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296-373 AD):

On the Incarnation: Athanasius famously articulated the idea that the Son of God became man so that men might become divine.
Quote: "For He was made man that we might be made God." (On the Incarnation, Chapter 54)
**4. Gregory of Nazianzus (c. 329-390 AD):

Orations: Gregory spoke about the transformative power of Christ's incarnation and resurrection, which enables believers to participate in the divine nature.
Quote: "He was made man that I might be made God." (Oration 29, The Fourth Theological Oration, Chapter 19)
**5. Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335-395 AD):

The Life of Moses: Gregory used the analogy of Moses' ascent up Mount Sinai to describe the believer's journey towards union with God, culminating in deification.
Quote: "For the goal of a virtuous life is to become like God." (The Life of Moses, Book 2, Chapter 1)
**6. John Chrysostom (c. 349-407 AD):

Homilies: Chrysostom emphasized that through grace and the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, believers are united with Christ and partake in His divine nature.
Quote: "He poured forth these blessings upon the world, bringing all to heaven and making man divine." (Homily on the Ascension, No. 1)
**7. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD):

Confessions: Augustine spoke about the transformative power of God's grace, which sanctifies and elevates the believer, drawing them into the divine life.
Quote: "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God." (City of God, Book 10, Chapter 29)
**8. Maximus the Confessor (c. 580-662 AD):

Ambigua: Maximus elaborated on the idea of deification as the ultimate purpose of creation, where humanity, through Christ, is united with God in a profound and mystical way.
Quote: "A sure warrant for looking forward with hope to deification of human nature is provided by the incarnation of God, which makes man God to the same degree as God Himself became man." (Ambigua, 7.22)
Conclusion:

The early Church Fathers universally affirmed the concept of deification as the ultimate goal of the Christian life, where believers are transformed by the grace of God to share in His divine nature. This process, grounded in the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ, is a journey of becoming more like God in holiness and virtue, culminating in a profound union with the Divine. Their writings reflect a deep and mystical understanding of salvation that transcends mere moral improvement, aiming instead at full participation in the life of God.

Sounds like Joyce Meyer--we are gods just from a cursory reading re these writings, wouldn't you say? And this is not misquoting them.

 

[Hepzibah]

Give me the link on the church fathers you read @Hepzibah

Here is why I don't want to read their writings on "deification"

The early Church Fathers wrote extensively on the concept of deification, also known as theosis, which describes the process by which believers become partakers of the divine nature through union with Christ. Here are some key insights from several prominent early Church Fathers on deification:

**1. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130-202 AD):

Against Heresies: Irenaeus spoke about deification as the process by which humans, through Christ, become like God. He emphasized that through the incarnation, Jesus became what we are so that we might become what He is.
Quote: "For He became man that we might become God." (Against Heresies, Book 5, Preface)
**2. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD):

Stromata: Clement described deification as the end goal of the Christian life, where believers, through the grace of God, are elevated to share in the divine life.
Quote: "The Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God." (Stromata, Book 5, Chapter 11)
**3. Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296-373 AD):

On the Incarnation: Athanasius famously articulated the idea that the Son of God became man so that men might become divine.
Quote: "For He was made man that we might be made God." (On the Incarnation, Chapter 54)
**4. Gregory of Nazianzus (c. 329-390 AD):

Orations: Gregory spoke about the transformative power of Christ's incarnation and resurrection, which enables believers to participate in the divine nature.
Quote: "He was made man that I might be made God." (Oration 29, The Fourth Theological Oration, Chapter 19)
**5. Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335-395 AD):

The Life of Moses: Gregory used the analogy of Moses' ascent up Mount Sinai to describe the believer's journey towards union with God, culminating in deification.
Quote: "For the goal of a virtuous life is to become like God." (The Life of Moses, Book 2, Chapter 1)
**6. John Chrysostom (c. 349-407 AD):

Homilies: Chrysostom emphasized that through grace and the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, believers are united with Christ and partake in His divine nature.
Quote: "He poured forth these blessings upon the world, bringing all to heaven and making man divine." (Homily on the Ascension, No. 1)
**7. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD):

Confessions: Augustine spoke about the transformative power of God's grace, which sanctifies and elevates the believer, drawing them into the divine life.
Quote: "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God." (City of God, Book 10, Chapter 29)
**8. Maximus the Confessor (c. 580-662 AD):

Ambigua: Maximus elaborated on the idea of deification as the ultimate purpose of creation, where humanity, through Christ, is united with God in a profound and mystical way.
Quote: "A sure warrant for looking forward with hope to deification of human nature is provided by the incarnation of God, which makes man God to the same degree as God Himself became man." (Ambigua, 7.22)
Conclusion:

The early Church Fathers universally affirmed the concept of deification as the ultimate goal of the Christian life, where believers are transformed by the grace of God to share in His divine nature. This process, grounded in the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ, is a journey of becoming more like God in holiness and virtue, culminating in a profound union with the Divine. Their writings reflect a deep and mystical understanding of salvation that transcends mere moral improvement, aiming instead at full participation in the life of God.

Sounds like Joyce Meyer--we are gods just from a cursory reading re these writings, wouldn't you say? And this is not misquoting them.

Can't get on my pc till l find the disk. I think l did give you some

 

[Hepzibah]

Again, you really don't know me, or how "hungry" I am, or any of this. We have very different viewpoints, and I believe that mine is what the Scripture says, and yours is something different. I'm showing you my view directly from the Bible. You are asserting that I don't understand the Bible because I don't see your view, and I don't understand because I'm not hungry enough for holiness.

But you know what? You are right. I'm not so much hungry for holiness, that's not my primary goal. It's only a means to get what I actually want, what is most meaningful to me. What I most desire is intimacy with my Father, and that is found in Christ, however, a clean conscience is one less impediment.

Much love!

Sorry for the offence. A clean conscience is how to be close to Him.

 

[Johann]

@Hepzibah

And on the "energies"

The concept of partaking in the "energies" of God is a significant aspect of Eastern Orthodox theology, especially as articulated by the Church Fathers. This idea is distinct from the Western Christian understanding, which typically focuses more on God's essence. In Eastern Orthodoxy, God's "energies" refer to His actions and presence in the world, which believers can experience and participate in without ever comprehending His essence, which remains transcendent and unknowable. Here are some insights from key Church Fathers on this topic:

**1. Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296-373 AD):

Athanasius emphasized that through Christ, believers are united with God and partake in His divine life. While he did not explicitly use the term "energies," his writings imply that through the incarnation, believers share in God's life.
Quote: "For He was made man that we might be made God." (On the Incarnation, Chapter 54)
**2. Cappadocian Fathers:

The Cappadocian Fathers (Basil the Great, Gregory of Nazianzus, and Gregory of Nyssa) laid foundational work for the later development of the doctrine of the divine energies.
Basil the Great (c. 330-379 AD): In his work On the Holy Spirit, Basil distinguishes between God's essence and energies.
Quote: "We know the essence through the energies. No one has ever seen the essence of God, but we believe in the essence because we experience the energies." (On the Holy Spirit, Chapter 9)
**3. Gregory of Nazianzus (c. 329-390 AD):

Gregory emphasized the experiential knowledge of God through His actions and presence in the world, which aligns with the concept of divine energies.
Quote: "The energies of God come down to us, while His essence remains inaccessible." (Oration 28, The Second Theological Oration, Chapter 17)
**4. Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335-395 AD):

Gregory spoke of the transformative power of God's presence and actions in believers' lives, pointing to the idea of participating in the divine life through God's energies.
Quote: "For this is the true vision of God: to never be satisfied in the desire to see Him. But by looking at what he can see, always to be yearning to see more." (The Life of Moses, Book 2)
**5. Dionysius the Areopagite (Pseudo-Dionysius, c. late 5th century):

Dionysius' mystical theology influenced later discussions on the energies of God. He spoke about the divine light and energies emanating from God, which sanctify and transform believers.
Quote: "The divine energies, through which the Deity is manifested and shared with the world, do not in any way cause any change in God." (The Divine Names, Chapter 2)
**6. Maximus the Confessor (c. 580-662 AD):

Maximus developed the theology of the divine energies further, emphasizing the believer's participation in God's actions and presence.
Quote: "All that God is, except for an identity in essence, one becomes when one is deified by grace." (Ambigua, 7.22)
He also distinguished between God's essence (ousia) and His energies (energeia), explaining that while we cannot know God's essence, we can experience His energies.
**7. Gregory Palamas (c. 1296-1359 AD):

Gregory Palamas is perhaps the most well-known theologian associated with the doctrine of the divine energies. He defended this concept against the philosopher Barlaam of Calabria in the Hesychast controversy.
Quote: "The energies of God are those through which God is known and by which He acts in the world. They are not His essence, but they are inseparable from His essence." (The Triads, Book 3)
Conclusion:

The writings of the Church Fathers on partaking of the energies of God emphasize that while God's essence is beyond human comprehension and remains inaccessible, His energies, which are His actions and presence in the world, can be experienced and participated in by believers. This distinction allows for a profound and transformative relationship with God, where believers can become partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) and be transformed by His grace, while still acknowledging the transcendence of God's essence.

I need more Scripture references on this since I notice a lot of writings but sparce on Scriptures.

 

[marks]

Sorry for the offence. A clean conscience is how to be close to Him.

I'm not offended, I was attempting to make a point.

And I'd respond that a real and Biblical faith in Christ is key to being close to God. Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. And then He can help deal with the conscience, and our behavior.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I'm not offended, I was attempting to make a point.

And I'd respond that a real and Biblical faith in Christ is key to being close to God. Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. And then He can help deal with the conscience, and our behavior.

Much love!

Are you saying your conscience is an impediment?

 

[marks]

Are you saying your conscience is an impediment?

1 John 3:18-22 KJV
18) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19) And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20) For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21) Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22) And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

In this way.

If we look at ourselves, we can lose confidence with God. However,

1 Peter 3:21 KJV
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

our conscience is not addressed by personal reformation, instead our good conscience is by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I'm not saying we don't pay attention to the nagging of our conscience. I am saying that doing this or not doing that, these are not what make us right with God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes when does Spirit baptism occur is the basis of it. I thought that it had happened when I first came to Christ but found it had not. Baptism of the Spirit means fruit of the Spirit in the fullness thereof not bits of it.

How many times might one be baptized in the Spirit? More than once? No limit?

Much love!